My 5 Gallon Nano

[skylab1]

maybe i'm not reading it correctly but are you stating that nitrates hit 6.237-grams/liter the first day? or is that the 3rd day?



regardless, how did ammonia-processing and nitrite-processing bacteria colonize so quickly?

is there some missing information like you had introduced other bacteria and a nitrate source already? it doesn't just jump from biomatter straight to nitrate (iirc).

No the nitrate in the water was at 6,237 grams/L at the start of day 1 which is 1/3/06

The rest of the questions you have to ask Bill, this test was done for a enviromental project which I am not involve with and weren't present during the test. I don't know what Ocean Enviro did or didn't do, so I can't speak for them. [/b]

 

[Len]

Hi Bill,

Welcome to our community, and thank you for participating. Unfortunately, your post provided no answers but only more sales pitches. I understand that you need to protect your intellectual property for financial reasons, but I also hope you understand why I have heathy skepticism for claims without any proof. I may set up a nano tank to try your products out with someday. I have too much money and life invested in my big tank to experiment.

 

[tinyreef]

Now to clear up a few misconceived notions.

Water DOES off gas at the surface. Where do you think the ocean, rivers, and streams have their gas exchange rate? That is why the CO2 which does not have a great affinity for water. When CO2 is driven off, it creates a small vacuum and air enters solution.

i don't think anyone noted that CO2 doesn't gas exchange at the surface. what was noted was how this CO2 doesn't result in a severe pH depression. someone mentioned borate as a possibility (i'm still wondering about that).

but sky's presentation made it seem like there's a very significant amount of CO2 being generated by the "aerobic process". is it negated somehow by the other processes?

is this process presently used in wastewater treatment? (just curious, if that's proprietary info and you'd rather not comment i'd understand) i am involved peripherally in that industry but more downstream (OEM mfg) than R&D.

if your process is valid, you'd be leapfrogging a number of stages in wasterwater treatment/processing! $$$! 8O

do you have to recover the bacteria? i.e. tipping off the purified water stage or is it more effective stationary as shown?

 

[tinyreef]

maybe i'm not reading it correctly but are you stating that nitrates hit 6.237-grams/liter the first day? or is that the 3rd day?[...]

No the nitrate in the water was at 6,237 grams/L at the start of day 1 which is 1/3/06.[...] [/b]

um, i think you typo'd that. (or you're european?)

6,237-grams per liter is 6.237-kg per liter! 8O i don't think even salt dissolves beyond 200g~300g(?).

i think you meant six and a quarter grams, right? not a big deal but still very significant amount at 6.25g which begs the question how did it get to even that elevated amount on day-1. tapwater, maybe?

again, just curious, not a slam. the parameters of the testing weren't noted (it's a quickie post so i'm not expecting the whole thing, hence my followup questions).

 

[Snake USMC]

The test by OE was started at those values for their customers.
1/3: 6,237.0 mg/L That is Six THOUSAND two hundred thirty seven mg/L is the true reading as the test clearly shows. That is how much Nitrate they put into solution for the test. The next test will have higher values than this test.

They have a very bad problem with Nitrates in drinking water. Thus, this is what they ar interested in. As you noticed the elevated levels of NO3 and the rapid decline in the same subject matter. They desired to see if in fact the system works. This an another system their are selling and when they have completed testing, their clients are flying from Asia to see a demostration.



Here is a fish tank set up by a retail Store and their comments. You can contact them. They just laugh at people who do not believe after they have been using parts and now the full system after 4 years.

----- Original Message -----
From: "CB Pets, Inc." <cbpets@gvtc.com>
To: "*" <Snake@HDLtd.com>
Cc: <mao@gvtc.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:08 AM
Subject: Impossible


> 1.) Setup the 125 thursday night with no liverock, just base rock.
> 2.) Added 4 fish and RN friday
> 3.) Saturday NH3 = .2 and NO2 = 0
> 4.) Sunday NH3 = 0 and NO2 = 0
>
> This can't be! It's impossible! I don't care what just happened...it's a
> trick...unless you give me all your data and instructions on how to make
> your products myself. Otherwise it is some kind of snake oil! LOL!
>
> Richard

Now Len, if you really want to test this for yourself, all you need is a 5 gallon bucket, large bubble (lee) filter TBPC, Right Now bacteria, Trace element blox, sea salt, large Optimum (hagan) pH rock air pump, air tubing and your test kits. It is not that expensive (I shall supply the TBPC, pH rock, Right Now Bacteria and Trace elemnt Blox. You supply the remainder as I have printed. You MUST use the equiptment I mentiond and you will have the total cycle in 24 hours an in three days you will have 4 fish in your tanks with the reading of 000. I am informing you before hand, of what your readings will be. Since you are leading this thread, you can tell everyone how it works. But you MUST follow instructions. A five gallon bucket and other equiptment is not going to break your wallet.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

 

[skylab1]

maybe i'm not reading it correctly but are you stating that nitrates hit 6.237-grams/liter the first day? or is that the 3rd day?[...]

No the nitrate in the water was at 6,237 grams/L at the start of day 1 which is 1/3/06.[...] [/b]

um, i think you typo'd that. (or you're european?)

Yes I did, thank you the correction.

 

[Snake USMC]

Dear Len,

As you noticed the aerobic reduction of Nitrates is a valid test. That is proof stating we can reduce nitrates via the aerobic process.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

 

[Snake USMC]

rcsheng


If you are involved in our industery (Environmental) , you may contact me at that number.

Snake

 

[Len]

I don't have much doubt your product can do nitrogen cycling quickly (not convinced about the reported duration though, but that is easily tested). I'm less convinced how well it will keep NO3 and PO4 down in the long run, and that will require some time. In addition, because you do not disclose any information about the processes involved, I am not sure how sensitive marine life will react to your agents.

One thing I'm compelled to mention is the imprudence of advising hobbyists (especially new hobbyists) to add their livestock five minutes after using your product. I'm sure you can understand why it's a good idea to teach patience and diligence to hobbyists.

 

[Snake USMC]

Len,

You are still thinking the old way. This is a new era.

Talk to Bob at Aquatic Life in Stewart Florida 772-287-7177 They have been using our system (In fact built their entire shop around our system) for Six Years. Their death loss is less than 1 percent a week. Normal shops are between 5 to 45 percent a week. I know this industery and that figure is a fact.

So after SIX YEARS I believe they would have quit buying if it had harmed their fish. Also ask Bob About the 4 large fish he put in a rental tank all at once when he first started the tank.

Also if you go on my site, you will see High Bright Wholesale. he started by putting in 25,000 Dollars with a fish in at one time.

New science along with a new way of thinking.

Well, are you going to set up the five gallon bucket fish tank with 4 fish in it?

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

 

[Len]

I am not going to have 4 fish in a 5 gallon bucket, regardless of the system's ability to handle nitrogen. It's a terrible idea on the simple basis of stressing fish in close cohabitation and little volume to move around in. No "new science" will fix that. It's examples like these that make me believe you do not have much experience keeping reef aquariums and why I think your advice is imprudent. Nothing personal.

If you have sample aquarium photos, I'd love to see them (particularly your own).

 

[Len]

BTW, I'm more concerned with invertebrate reaction to your product . As you're aware, inverts are much more sensitive to environmental conditions. If you can show me a thriving coral community, you will go a long way in convincing me. The photos on your website and posted by skylab do not demonstrate this (no offense).

 

[Snake USMC]

Dear Len,

I have been in the first business since 1970 selling firesh and salt water fish. I do have a little expience in all thos years. If you have been to a fish holding facility, you will see very cramped fish.

My four fish have been in the same bucket for 4 years. No ill effects and they have grown. So your opinion on that is just an opinion. Remember clowns are a vertical fish in their environment.

Now I have offer you what I offer pet shops who try it using that method and they see NO ill effects on the fish. Now you attempt to switch to inverts, well why don't you CALL Aquatic Life and ask them. You have never called me even when I said I would pay for the phone call.

I believe there is someone on this board who would set up such a tank. If memory serves me correclty a NANO tank holds only 6 gallons and they have a complet system built in. My is only a box filter pH rock TBPC carbon, and Right Now Bacteria,

Now to TEST science, means you would. I have read all your posts and before I logged on, so when you invited me then and only then did I log on. THen when I stated you could perform what I have stated, I receive this reply with NO science behind your statement.

My systems do in fact reduce N and P for long terms as long as the TBPC is kept clean. Wow how hard is that?

That means more people in the hobbie, who will soon have larger tanks with greater density of life in them with less effort. Not such a bad idea and they don't have to spend a fortune on it to achieve the same result as I saw a photo posted on reef C.

In closing, if we could not reduce and keep N and P under a certain level, then the environmental business we are in would be all to naught. They do not want a one shot deal but somthing that makes drinking water safe. Anything over 35 mg/L of NO3 will cause cancer. Anything over 10 mg/L of NO2 has the same effect. Thus, when very large companies demand data, and only Hiatt is involved, we performed the tests, for a fee for them. On the other hand when we do Joint ventures with other companies, it is for both companies benifit. Thus if we fail, we forfit our Bond to Perform. That is much greater than a fish tank.

But this science can be applied to the fish hobby without any mal results. Call them, and ask the same question, They will give you the answer you probably not looking for.

Remember in WW 2 the Japanese said, on Tarawa that 1 million men in 10,000 years could not take this island. The USMC took it in a month.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

Ps, Try it, you'll like it.

 

[skylab1]

I'm sure you can understand why it's a good idea to teach patience and diligence to hobbyists.

Yes, you can teach patience and diligence, but that's rarely received well by a new hobbyists, even an old hobbyists for that matter; most of the time is one ear in and one ear out.

90% of the new I talked to have some fish in their tank about the second weeks in to the nitrogen cycle. The remaining 10% are asking "when can we have fish?" If they can't get it from you they go to other LFS, most LFS won't bother to ask how old is the tank, you want fish you shall have fish. The end result is many dead fish during this period, when fish dies, they just go back and buy some more.

The fact of the matter is, people don't want to see an empty tank for weeks, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

By offering them an alternative way to setup the tank, they can have their fish but without killing it; you know what most people would do the minute the tank is setup. "Let's go buy some fish!"

 

[Len]

I prefer the internet medium over phone calls for this type of discussions because they are public and historically archived. I also enjoy the luxury of formulating and refining my thoughts before expressing them. This (and my fear our phone conversions will be as unproductive as our internet dialogue) are the only reasons I do not wish to call you, not because of any nefarious intent. I can call Aquatic Life also, but let's admit it: anecdotal evidence from a stranger holds virtually no weight.

Can you supply me with any pictorial evidence attesting to success using your method? You mention that you can achieve the same results as featured aquariums you see on bulletin boards (e.g. featured aquariums). Please provide evidence of this.

You really haven't given us any science to debate. I can understand it if you do not wish to discuss the patented issues, but you've given us nothing to debate about other then your product marketing claims.

I'm not sure what you mean by "clowns are vertical fish." This is not a biological term I am familiar with. Are all four fish in your 5 gallon clownfish? If so, what species, and have they spawned in the last four years?

A nano tank is the common term used to describe low volume reef tanks. It is not a particular brand or system type.

Just to clarify, I don't doubt your product has utility in various market segments. But as I've previously mentioned, it's your willingless to translate these successes to efficacy for reef aquariums that I'm questioning.

 

[tinyreef]

rcsheng If you are involved in our industery (Environmental) , you may contact me at that number.

i manufacture (sub-contractor) in/for the industry, among many other industries. i just wanted to be upfront about it. i figure that's better than finding out at a later date and causing undue worry and unnecessary accusations (similar field but not facility wastewater treatment, more on-site usage).

another thing i'm curious about, the statements you've made on mortality seem to center on that lfs mortality is mostly due to nitrate (the centerpiece waste you are processing/converting). that seems unlikely imo but i'm not involved with the pet retail industry (livestock-wise) so i can't really comment competently on that (industry forum peeps, chime in <here> ). it just seemed a bit unusual for such a dramatic decrease solely due to nitrate poisoning.

are there other factors? perhaps the PO4 reduction, organic utilization, carbon use, etc. indirect benefits?

 

[Snake USMC]

Dear Len,

A few of your statements are incorrect.

The first on regarding Aquatic Life, They have had two shops one with the present system everyone uses and then their new shop. They are in a position to know what their death loss was before and after.

they are also in a position to validate my claim regarding the keeping of fish and all inverts because they also do tank maintance and have before they enter their new shop. Some of their customers are over 8 years old so it is not a ploy.

You have never remarked regarding the validated test data regarding the reduction of Nitrates. In your early posts you stated it was impossible to reduce nitrates aerobically and when presented with the facts - no comment.

For your information there IS a Nano tank on the market with that name. How do I know? I sell to their boss who tranships fish. I have seen the container and the cartons in their wharehouse Transworld Aquatic Enterprises, Inc is their name.

Two Percs and two Watchman. Vertical environment simply means such as a piling in a pier the organism tend to stay within that enviroment. So clowns are the same because they tend in the ocean to stay around and above their host so they will not be consumed.

The pet industry has a great death loss in fish after they have hit the retail store if that store does not keep up on it. Usually the highest death rate is within the first 24 - 48 hours because of an ammonia spike. My system has no ammonia spike (that is if you wish to call 0.20 mg/L a spike and that diminishes within an hour or so.

The entire thread is all about if one can keep a 5 gallon tank with four fish using new science and also corals. The answer is yes and without the hassle of making it a chore but finally people can enjoy the fish tank as it should be done.

Go to Aquatic Life and ask them about their coral communities. There is not difference between them and some one posting on a board to see if it works. Beside if you try it, or someone on this thread trys it, and it works, what do you have to lose? Nothing except the shackels of the old way vs the new way.

Think of it this way, areyou driving a Model T ford? No, why? Because something better is out there. Are you driving only 20 miles per hour? No? why because now you can drive faster and get there quicker with new science.

So it is with the 24 cycle totally aerobic system.

And as I stated before hand, please read in my post regarding certain information.

The bottom line is - Does it perform as Snake says? Or is it a bunch of Snake Oil? That is why I suggested you try the system in a bucket, because it is stable in that environment.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

 

[tinyreef]

The pet industry has a great death loss in fish after they have hit the retail store if that store does not keep up on it. Usually the highest death rate is within the first 24 - 48 hours because of an ammonia spike. My system has no ammonia spike (that is if you wish to call 0.20 mg/L a spike and that diminishes within an hour or so.

i would've guessed that ammonia/nitrite were more of the issue than nitrate but does your system also deal with those issues quicker than normal then like the nitrate?

 

[skylab1]

I think snake is talking about the 6 gallon JBJ Nano cubes, this is also a 12 and 24 gallon available.

 

[Snake USMC]

Dear Reefkeeper,

No, my invention also includes all forms of nitrogen. This did not come out the way I desired it, but it is data anyway. The first day they introduced the values and then recorded ever 24 hours. You will notice the Right Now takes care of all nitrogen waste.

Inchcape testing services is one of the largest Enviromental testing services in the world. They are a certified by the US Government as a testing facility.

In regards to Len's last post regarding a debate, there is really nothing to debate. I had these disscussion with my self for 11 years and did not win all the arguements.

What people do not understand, is the cycle both of them are the same in saltwater, fresh water, brackish water, wast water treatment plants, drinking water, Farming, pig farming, etc. There is no difference and because of that if it works on one it will work on all others.

If you print this out and set the values correctly, I believe you will find data you are seeking.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake

Inchcape Testing Services
Caleb Brett

R E P O R T O F A N A L Y S I S


Vessel : ---
Port/Terminal : ---
Client Reference : ---
Our Reference : LA/96-25745
Date Sample Taken : ---
Date Submitted : 04/28/96
Date Tested : 04/30/96 TO 05/03/96
Sample Designated As : RIGHT NOW BACTERIA
Drawn By : AS SUBMITTED
Representing : ---

Lab Reference : 96-----

__________________________________________________________________
04/30/96 05/01/96 05/02/96 05/03/96
TEST 1445 HRS 1800 HRS 1700 HRS 1545 HRS
___________________________________________________________________________________________


Ammonia Nitrogen, mg/L: 0.9 1.0 0.4 0.2
Nitrogen Nitrate, mg/L: 22.0 3.52 6.6 4.4
Nitrogen Nitrite, mg/L: 1.5 1.5 0.75 0.3
Sodium Nitrite, mg/L: 7.5 7.5 3.75 1.5






C.M. Dean
ITS - Caleb Brett
1941 Freeman
Signal Hill, CA 90804
310 494 4999
Fax 310 985 3469