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invert":1xoffr08 said:
pls exsplain how this works and how you induce that type of cycle?

but even if you can keep waste low enough for that many fish the choise of fish is still not the best surly.

imo you put your wants over the health of the animals you keep, but thats just my opin

gl :)

Ditto. The only reason a P. volitans and B. mesothorax should be in a 5 gallon tank is for emergency/temporary reasons. These fish get big, and they get big very quickly.
 

tinyreef

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"totally aerobic nitrogen cycle"

i'm puzzled too. do you mean that the nitrate stage is processed in an aerobic manner somehow? and specifically by/in the corner air-driven canister (as the "secret")? i don't see anything else out of the ordinary, except for the treasure chest. :wink:

but i'm going to stray from the other posters for a moment in that i do believe five fish can be done in that size of a tank, if done "correctly" (now that's a subjective term :lol: ). but so far, no offense, your results don't look so good.

besides the lion not eating mysis, the clown is one of the hardiest fish imo, excluding some damsels i can't think of a hardier fish in our hobby for their sizes.

short of disease or injury, i don't think they should croak that quickly like you describe, excluding poor husbandry. but it may be disease and not your water parameters/husbandry. i'm assuming the popular water parameters test out fine (or close to it, i realize it is a young tank).

could you explain the "total aerobic" process theory more?
 

Meloco14

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Well, between this thread and your other thread on these boards it sounds like you are using some secret new strain of bacteria that can perform denitrification in an aerobic environment, which, if true could be a major change to the hobby. If this is in fact what you are trying to show, then I think it's great. However, your methods of showing this are terrible, and you are losing all credibility from the people you are showing this to because of it. Sure, it might be possible to keep 5 fish alive in that tank, but that doesn't mean it should be done. As Matt mentioned, its a matter of ethics. I feel like taking you and 4 other people and locking you into a bathroom for a couple weeks. Sure, you will survive, but will you enjoy it?
 

tinyreef

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Meloco14":18739avq said:
I feel like taking you and 4 other people and locking you into a bathroom for a couple weeks. Sure, you will survive, but will you enjoy it?
that depends if they're pretty hot...or not. 8O
 

skylab1

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invert":vrpwiq2x said:
but even if you can keep waste low enough for that many fish the choise of fish is still not the best surly.
gl :)

Actually there are a lot of choice on fish for this size tank besides clown and chromis, goby for example you have a lots of small goby available that is perfect for this size of tank, yasha white ray, antenna goby, blenny, clown goby, neon goby and many more, small invert like pom pom crabs, pepperment shrimp are also good; I've just saw a new speice of cardinal called blue strike cardinal, it's the size of fresh water tetra (and even looks like tetra) about 1/4 to 1/2" in size you can have a small group of these small fish in tank this size and it's saltwater. People would think those are tetras.

Small lion like the one I have is perfect for this size of tank, they are hard to feed in the beginning, you put them in a big tank they'll never get enough to eat unless that is the only fish you have. When the lion gets bigger you moved it out to a bigger tank, that's all.
 

skylab1

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Matt_Wandell":qeuo84lv said:
That's a secret? :? Anybody who keeps a fish only tank using a power filter/canister filter/bioball sump is using a nearly 'totally aerobic nitrogen cycle'.

First of all this is not entirely correct. If these tanks are using a nearly totally aerobic nitrogen cycle then why they all report a elevate nitrate level? People are all saying bioball are nitrate factory why? Because they are only using half the cycle. When you cycleing tank with a average of 27-29 day period then you have anaerobic conidtion some where in the tank, no matter what filtration system you use. And Matt, you are 100% correct it takes that long for the bacteria to establish themselves in sufficient quantities to process the level of nitrogenous compounds that fish produce.

The totally aerobic nitrogen cycle reduce nitrate in a aerobic enviroment, not anaerobic, even without DBS or LR like my demo tank.

I did a water test today the test result as follow:

temp: 82
pH: 8.4
ammonia: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
CA: 650 up from 550
Alk: 200

As you can see I have no live sand or live rock, no canister filter, no power filter, no bioball. I have no anaerobic conditional anywhere in the tank, how does the nitrogen cycle been complete here?

Matt_Wandell":qeuo84lv said:
It does NOT make the bacterial populations appear out of thin air any faster than they do in any other system

Meloco14":qeuo84lv said:
it sounds like you are using some secret new strain of bacteria that can perform denitrification in an aerobic environment, which, if true could be a major change to the hobby

Yes, the bacteria doesn't appear out of thin air or water, you have to add them to the tank, this bacteria is not new, it's been use on a enviromental side for many years. If fact, it was develop to reduce nitrate in drink water for an enviromental project, now we are adapting for aquarium use.

Meloco14":qeuo84lv said:
However, your methods of showing this are terrible, and you are losing all credibility from the people you are showing this to because of it. Sure, it might be possible to keep 5 fish alive in that tank, but that doesn't mean it should be done.

How is my method terrible and how am i losing credibility? BTW its 4 fish max on a 5 gallon not "5". If you can keep 4 fish in a 5 gallon tank why shouldn't be done? People have been keeping more fresh water fish in tank smaller then 5 gallon for years, and they still doing it, how is different for saltwater? Don't tell me saltwater fish need more space per gallon, because they don't. Saltwater system has more waste then fresh water, the filtration system has be able to remove all the waste to keep the tank healthy. Up untill now it was though impossible to do, that's why is 5 gallon of saltwater per 1 small fish so people won't overload their tank and get in to trouble. (which they still do anyway) With this system nitrate and waste removal is not a problem anymore, there for you can have more fish per gallon if you choose to that. You now have that choice.

Do I recommand everyone to setup a 5 gallon tank and put 4 fish in it, NO. This tank is to demonstrate how a totally aerobic nitrogen cycle can keep the water clean without using all those fancy equipment. If you multiply the 5 gallon by a factor of 10, now you have a 50 gallon tank. You can setup a 50 gallon saltwater tank using the totally aerobic nitrogen cycle as a filtration system without breaking the bank for all those additional equipment you would otherwise have to buy.

Just to be clear, bubble filter is only good for up to 10 gallon tank, anything above it you will need to use some type of power filter.


resheng":qeuo84lv said:
the clown is one of the hardiest fish imo, excluding some damsels i can't think of a hardier fish in our hobby for their sizes.

There is, gobies. I have 10 small to mid size gobies of different type
in a 15 gallon tank with two small clowns using this system with a hang on the back power filter running almost 1 1/2 year now.

I'll explain the totally nitrogen cycle in detail on the next reply
 

skylab1

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The Totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle

Before I start, I like to make clear I did not invent, discover or the owner of this new nitrogen cycle discuss here. I only conducted the test to validate the mfg’s claim on the product whether it works or not. After almost a year of field testing I am now confident to say this Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle does work and the result can be duplicated time after time again, as long as a strict protocol are followed.

Before we begin, we must first understand how a nitrogen cycle works.

The normal nitrogen cycle starts this way:

You have NH3(Ammonia), NH4OH (Ammonium Hydroxide) and NH4+ (Ammonium Ion) this is know as Total Ammonia (TA). During the first stage of nitrogen cycle TA is break down and converted to NO2 (Nitrite), this process is an Anaerobic Process which required oxygen.

Nitrite is then further break down to NO3 (Nitrate) then finally converted to N2 (Nitrogen Gas), this process is an Anaerobic Process which required little or no oxygen.

This cycle produces Hydrogen Sulfate, Carbonic Acid, Sulpher Dioxide and Carbon Dioxide. This process usually takes about 27 to 29 days to complete, sometimes even longer.

Now the New Nitrogen Cycle:

You have the Total Ammonia, the TA is rapidly converted to NO3 (Nitrate) by the bacteria. At the same time Nitrite and Nitrate are converting back and fourth depending on how the compound is moved, the byproduct of this process is Nitrogen Gas and Carbon Dioxide. This entire process is Aerobic, anaerobic plays no parts in the process. There for, anaerobic condition does not apply here.

One important element required to have a totally aerobic nitrogen cycle is the bacteria. The bacteria used here are the Right Now Bacteria (RN). The RN only works in an aerobic condition NOT anaerobic.

Because of this rapid transformation perform by the RN bacteria a true 24hours cycling through all nitrogen compounds including Nitrates is achieved. The RN bacteria also perform the following:

Aerobic reduction of Nitrates, Phosphates and potash.
Reduction of Sludge
Reduction of Oil normally on the surface of the aquarium.

The second element required to complete the Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle is the carbon.

The carbon used here is called Tri-base carbon. Unlike other carbon we normally use for aquarium, the tri-base carbon was developed specifically for the RN bacteria for use as a bio bed. As we all know biological filtration is all about available surface, the tri-base carbon has the largest available surface then any other carbon, silica sand, live rock and bio ball; plus a available carbon source.

The third element is the pH Rock. The pH Adjustment Rock has 28 trace elements (not strontium) and has plenty of CaCO3 and MgCO3 for all corals.

The pH rock is an optional setup, for fresh water application there is no need to use the pH rock. For saltwater or reef application, you can use the pH rock to buffer the pH and calcium.

During this process the RN bacteria produce Carbonic Acid, Nitrous Acid and Nitric Acid, which is strong enough to react with the pH rock and dissolve the rock overtime to provide a continues supply of Calcium with other trace elements and elevate the Alkalinity at the same time, thus the problem associate with high Calcium and low Alkalinity does not occur here; the pH rock will raise Calcium level to over 450ppm.

If you choose not to use pH rock, then the pH and Calcium will need to be maintaining through conventional means.

By using the Totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle system, much equipment we now use to maintain a stable aquarium is eliminated. You will notice on the sample spec. there is no skimmer, no calcium reactor. The protein is taken out by the RN bacteria and converts to Nitrate then to Nitrogen Gas in a very short amount of time. We can now buffer the Calcium with a simple use of pH Rock instead of expensive Calcium reactor.

The last element required is to have a proper flow rate. A flow rate is how many time the water turns over from the tank through the filter and back to the tank. The proper flow rate for this system is 10 times the total water volume, the bare minimum you need to have is 6 times the total water volume. Example: if you have a 75 gallon tank, your flow rate should be between 450 gph to 750gph, with 750 gph be the optimum number.
The discharge where the water is pump back to the tank should be place above the water line not below. (see pic.) The reason is simple, remember one of the by product of this system is CO2. What would happen is too much CO2 is in the water? By place the return above the water line, the returning water will splash the surface thus drives off the CO2 and the space left by the CO2 in the water will be replace by fresh oxygen. We recommend for both the drain and return pipe should be a minimum of 1”PVC for tank from 30 to 100 gallons. 101 gallon or above should use 2” pipe for both drain and return. The bigger the pipe the faster the water drains and less pressure are put on the return pump.

To increase flow rate when using bubble filter simply use a larger air pump and of coruse you can always choose to use a small hang on the the back power filter as well.

Below is the basic spec. of tank setup with the Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle, and a 220 gallon coral tank at 5 weeks old using this system.

tank-spec.gif

return1.jpg

coraltank-wide2.jpg


 

skylab1

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Day 8

030106.jpg


Water test was done today before I siphon out all the poo on the bottom.

temp: 82
pH: 8.4
ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Ca: 650
alk: 200
 

Len

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Ah, I see you're either regurgitating the product information from http://www.hdltd.com/index.html or you work there and wrote it. ;) Hopefully I have the time to address some of your points, but suffice it to say right now that I hold very little respect for the content on that website.
 
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Your mushroom corals look almost completely withered away now. What are we supposed to be seeing again? :?

coraltank-wide2.jpg


Brown corals and abundant diatom growth. What are we supposed to be seeing again?
 

Meloco14

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Well first off let me say that the use of purely aerobic bacteria is very interesting, and can potentially have good benefits to our hobby. However as in all science I am sure there is a lot more research to do on this subject.
Now, you apparently missed my earlier point so let me try to clarify it for you.
skylab1":guh8fhsc said:
How is my method terrible and how am i losing credibility? BTW its 4 fish max on a 5 gallon not "5". If you can keep 4 fish in a 5 gallon tank why shouldn't be done?
The majority of people on these forums make every possible effort to keep their fish, inverts, and corals as happy and healthy as possible. We enjoy our pets, and treat them with the care and respect they deserve. This is the same way we would treat a dog, cat, or even a child. I believe that putting 4 fish into a 5 gallon tank is terrible because they will not be as happy and healthy as possible. This is why I say that you are losing credibility with me. When I see someone treat fish as experiments or otherwise inhumanely I lose respect for that person. I think that many people on these forums would agree with me. Furthermore, what do you mean by its 4 fish max on a 5 gallon? Since when are there rules or laws on how many fish you can keep in an aquarium? We all know there are no set in stone rules in this hobby, only guidelines, and hopefully common sense. Common sense would dictate not to put the amount of fish into a 5 gallon tank that you did. This is the same reason why I don't put a baby shark in my 12 gallon, or why I don't keep a dog locked up in a 2'x2' box its entire life. This is why it should not be done.
skylab1":guh8fhsc said:
Do I recommand everyone to setup a 5 gallon tank and put 4 fish in it, NO. This tank is to demonstrate how a totally aerobic nitrogen cycle can keep the water clean without using all those fancy equipment.
This makes me sigh in relief. At least you mean well. However, this demonstration could have gone much more smoothly from the beginning. Maybe I missed it, but nowhere in your original post did you say this was a demonstration, and should not be attempted by others. And you would have gained a lot more favor from us by making this experiment much simpler. You could have made a chart or graph of your tank parameters every day for the first couple weeks. Maybe add one or two fish along the way. This would have been plenty to show us that no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrate spiked, and we all would have respected you a whole lot more, and would have appreciated this new information a whole lot more. In my opinion anyway.
 

skylab1

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Len":31svhty6 said:
Ah, I see you're either regurgitating the product information from http://www.hdltd.com/index.html or you work there and wrote it. ;) Hopefully I have the time to address some of your points, but suffice it to say right now that I hold very little respect for the content on that website.

First of all, I do not work at HDL so let be clear on that.

Second, I explained how the system works as it was explained to me.

Third, why do you hold little respect for the content on that website? Is because you think the info is fake? or you see a sales pitch coming down?

I already stayed I don't sell the product here, and I won't. HDL only sells to wholsale and LFS so they don't sell direct either, no sale period. Is really that hard to have an open mind this is a working solution to many of the problems we face in this hobby?

Just wondering here.
 

skylab1

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Matt_Wandell":2xllf062 said:
Your mushroom corals look almost completely withered away now. What are we supposed to be seeing again? :?

Which mushroom is withered away?

Brown corals and abundant diatom growth. What are we supposed to be seeing again?

Brown coral is not all I have, wide angel doesn't show details on everything.
Abundant diatom where?
You are suppose to see a 5 weeks old tank with coral, fish and crystal clean water. Most people at week 5 are still cycling an empty tank, that's what you suppose to see. Where is the diatom?
 

Len

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I don't have time tonight (and likely this week) to delve into it due to various obligations (most of which are Reefs.org related). But yes, that website's information is mostly bad science and marketing-speak. It targets hobbyists looking for the quick and easy aquarium, most of which are unfortunately new hobbyists.

I apologize if I offended you as it was not my intention.
 

skylab1

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Meloco14":1p7uwrzl said:
I believe that putting 4 fish into a 5 gallon tank is terrible because they will not be as happy and healthy as possible. Furthermore, what do you mean by its 4 fish max on a 5 gallon?

Well, I am puzzled. How could you possiblely know the fish isn't happy and healthy in my tank? I know people with big tanks are battling problems with algae, ich, high nitrate all day long. My little tank has none of those problems nor any other tanks I setup use this system. So who's to say which tank has happier and healther fish, theirs or my?

4 fish max is what one bubble filter can handle in a 5 gallon tank, any more than that you will have problems, even with this system you still can't overload the biological filtration.

Meloco14":1p7uwrzl said:
However, this demonstration could have gone much more smoothly from the beginning.

As you aware this isn't the only board I post, I take a different approach on each borad I post. One board in particular kick anyone off for mention this system, they just hated, so what can I say.

I don't see how can I make this demo any more simpler then with a 5 gallon tank using bubble filter? I post pic daily and water parameters every 3 days, I even report death of fish, what else you wouldl like me to do?

I do value yours and everyone's opinion, at the very lest I haven't got boo it off this borad yet. :)
 

skylab1

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Len":26687cy2 said:
I don't have time tonight (and likely this week) to delve into it due to various obligations (most of which are Reefs.org related). But yes, that website's information is mostly bad science and marketing-speak. It targets hobbyists looking for the quick and easy aquarium, most of which are unfortunately new hobbyists.

I apologize if I offended you as it was not my intention.


Len, I am not offended in any way. I understand you have other obligations so I await your valued opinion.

As for the web site content, how do you know is bad science? The Right Now bacteria has two U.S. patents, I don't think the U.S. patent office will grand two patents based on bad science, but I could be wrong.

Why can't this hobby be quick and easy?
 

tinyreef

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skylab1":243uv8xx said:
resheng":243uv8xx said:
the clown is one of the hardiest fish imo, excluding some damsels i can't think of a hardier fish in our hobby for their sizes.
There is, gobies. I have 10 small to mid size gobies of different type
in a 15 gallon tank with two small clowns using this system with a hang on the back power filter running almost 1 1/2 year now.
that's really a subjective answer (and question btw). it doesn't add to your discussion's strength at all but (seems) to avoid explaining why the clown died so quickly. again, i'm not saying definitively that it was the water conditions that killed it (could have been disease) but it doesn't give your setup more credence, but less.

gobies can be hardy, damsels are too, but clowns are as well. quantitatively gauging their hardiness is next to impossible so i'll skip that comparison for just a simple explanation if available.

your 5-week-old tank looks good (not great). i've setup a 75g tank in 3-days with good LR and dry sand. a lot of things can be done and i've done a lot of them but i refrain from posting it (usually) for fear of beginners falling off the cliff en masse.

skylab1":243uv8xx said:
The Right Now bacteria has two U.S. patents, I don't think the U.S. patent office will grand two patents based on bad science, but I could be wrong.
ha! then you don't know the USTPO very well. :lol:

skylab1":243uv8xx said:
Why can't this hobby be quick and easy?
it can be (i hope) but there's a couple of assumptions that you've written that aren't quite correct (e.g. no anaerobic zones present in your tank). but i'm keeping an open mind on your process. the arguement has logical flow but i'd like to see more information (as i guess others would too).
 

skylab1

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rcsheng":l285edee said:
i'm not saying definitively that it was the water conditions that killed it (could have been disease) but it doesn't give your setup more credence, but less.

I do know what kill that clown, bad packaging. Beside I could of skip the dead fish and not report it but I didn't.

your 5-week-old tank looks good (not great). a lot of things can be done and i've done a lot of them but i refrain from posting it (usually) for fear of beginners falling off the cliff en masse.
I know its not great, its not done. The flow rate is only 6 times with a small pump. Until is done it won't be great.

ha! then you don't know the USTPO very well. :lol:
I don't.

skylab1":l285edee said:
Why can't this hobby be quick and easy?
it can be (i hope) but there's a couple of assumptions that you've written that aren't quite correct (e.g. no anaerobic zones present in your tank). but i'm keeping an open mind on your process. the arguement has logical flow but i'd like to see more information (as i guess others would too).[/quote]

Which one I wrote are not correct, I appreciate you correction.
I wanted to thank you for keeping an open mind on the subject, what other information would you like to see?
 
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skylab1":32p44yx5 said:
Matt_Wandell":32p44yx5 said:
Your mushroom corals look almost completely withered away now. What are we supposed to be seeing again? :?

Which mushroom is withered away?

Brown corals and abundant diatom growth. What are we supposed to be seeing again?

Brown coral is not all I have, wide angel doesn't show details on everything.
Abundant diatom where?
You are suppose to see a 5 weeks old tank with coral, fish and crystal clean water. Most people at week 5 are still cycling an empty tank, that's what you suppose to see. Where is the diatom?

On both sides of the tank walls. Look at the reflection of the copper
banded butterfly on the right side. You can hardly see it through the
brown algae. I suspect it's all over the front and back too but it's such a
wide shot it's hard to tell.

More importantly, your mushroom corals (probably some of the
hardiest corals available) look like they're withering and dying. These
things are weeds in healthy tanks.
 

Len

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skylab1":24wfor4n said:
As for the web site content, how do you know is bad science? The Right Now bacteria has two U.S. patents, I don't think the U.S. patent office will grand two patents based on bad science, but I could be wrong.

Just a quickie response: the US Patent Office does not screen the validity of science behind products. Patents are employed to protect intellectual property that is unique and new, nothing more or less. You should not assume anything that is patented is good or correct.
 

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