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skylab1

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Matt_Wandell":15erf77m said:
On both sides of the tank walls. Look at the reflection of the copper
banded butterfly on the right side. You can hardly see it through the
brown algae. I suspect it's all over the front and back too but it's such a
wide shot it's hard to tell.

More importantly, your mushroom corals (probably some of the
hardiest corals available) look like they're withering and dying. These
things are weeds in healthy tanks.

On both left and right side wall those are brown algae, I normally don't clean the side walls. I think what I need to do is take some close up pics of the tank and corals so more detail can be seen. You are right the wide shot is really hard to see.
 

skylab1

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Len":3szpzmad said:
Just a quickie response: the US Patent Office does not screen the validity of science behind products. Patents are employed to protect intellectual property that is unique and new, nothing more or less. You should not assume anything that is patented is good or correct.

No I don't assume anything that is why I am doing this. Just the same you caution me not to assume anything patented is good or correct, perhaps you should not assume the information on the website is bad science until you have chance to verify. Just because the information presented on the website is different than what we normally learn from science, it doesn't mean is bad or incorrect. Right?
 

Len

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Read the following page:
http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_24hour.html
It is filled with nothing but scientific phrases without explanation as to how the product actually works. The webpage is inundated with many, many outlandish claims. May I ask why you trust their claims? They present no evidence, no ingredient information, no third-party review, no controlled documention .... nothing but generalized technical babble, some incorrect/exaggerated information, and lots of incredible claims. Does this not sound like snake-oil to you?
 
A

Anonymous

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skylab1":p0aosl2a said:
Matt_Wandell":p0aosl2a said:
On both sides of the tank walls. Look at the reflection of the copper
banded butterfly on the right side. You can hardly see it through the
brown algae. I suspect it's all over the front and back too but it's such a
wide shot it's hard to tell.

More importantly, your mushroom corals (probably some of the
hardiest corals available) look like they're withering and dying. These
things are weeds in healthy tanks.

On both left and right side wall those are brown algae, I normally don't clean the side walls. I think what I need to do is take some close up pics of the tank and corals so more detail can be seen. You are right the wide shot is really hard to see.

More importantly, your mushroom corals (probably some of the
hardiest corals available) look like they're withering and dying. These
things are weeds in healthy tanks.


Care to address this?
 

tinyreef

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skylab1":2yqz8zv7 said:
rcsheng":2yqz8zv7 said:
...but there's a couple of assumptions that you've written that aren't quite correct (e.g. no anaerobic zones present in your tank).
Which one I wrote are not correct, I appreciate you correction.
"The deneuralyzer, magneto-energy will surge through your brain unlocking information that could hold the key to the reefs' very survival."

"Hmm, okay. What's that thing?"

"The deneuralyzer, ...<sigh>."
 

Len

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Due to waste management and agricultural science, there's been a lot of research done on nitrification and denitrification in freshwater environments. There's comparatively little known about seawater processes. What concerns me most is HDL's blind willingness to translate freshwater sturdies to saltwater. This is "bad science" in the name of selling a miracle product that does it all with no deleterious side effects. HDL also states erroneous information for the sake of a convenient argument to buy more of their products (e.g. Tri Base carbon will fuel their aerobic nitrifying bacteria with TOC when the opposite is true - activated carbon will absorb organics, including organic carbons). This is just a sampling of fallacies they represent as fact.

I have emailed their "Technical Wizards" for more information. I will keep you posted.
 

Len

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Hmmm. After further thought, I think I know what they are referring to when they claim their Tri Base carbon is used as a TOC source for their aerobic denitirifiers. They advocate the use of their carbon not as a chemical absorbant but as a bacterial habitat. Thus, bacteria living within the carbon matrices will have access to some of the organics the carbon absorbs. This is also why they suggest their carbon does not need replacing for five whooping years. It's clearly being used in the same manner as bio-balls and not GAC's conventional usage. Any activated carbon or porous media for that matter will do this. Live rock would probably do it just as well or better.
 

tinyreef

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i thought they're (also) implying that the raw carbon is also there as a carbon elemental source for organic processes? is that even possible?
 

Len

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It sure sounds like that way to me too, but activated carbon absorbs organics, including organic carbon. My explanation is the only plausible one I can think of ;) Their information appears to me as if someone who has little understanding of the science trying to explain things by piecing together - often erroneously - scattered bits of loosely pertinent ideas (and doing a rather poor job at it).
 

skylab1

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Len":2364oi6x said:
Hmmm. After further thought, I think I know what they are referring to when they claim their Tri Base carbon is used as a TOC source for their aerobic denitirifiers. They advocate the use of their carbon not as a chemical absorbant but as a bacterial habitat. Thus, bacteria living within the carbon matrices will have access to some of the organics the carbon absorbs. This is also why they suggest their carbon does not need replacing for five whooping years. It's clearly being used in the same manner as bio-balls and not GAC's conventional usage. Any activated carbon or porous media for that matter will do this. Live rock would probably do it just as well or better.

Here is data concerning the Aerobic reduction of Nitrates (NO3) done by a third party Ocean Enviro LLC.

Usually solids in the water are measured in Milligrams per Liter. Gas is measured in ppm the conversion from ppm to mg/l is ppm x 1 = mg/L so it is the same value.



1. Start Date: Jan 3, 2006
2. End Date: Jan 10, 2006
3. Daily Values:
1/3: 6,237.0 mg/L
1/4: 4,797.0 mg/L
1/5: 796.0 mg/L Note: Probe out of calibration, had to recondition, erroneous reading
1/6: 2,393.0 mg/L
1/7: 330.0 mg/L
1/8: 54.20 mg/L
1/9: 22.90 mg/L
1/10: 1.10 mg/L

to convert mg/L to ppm/L take the value multiply by 1

4. Test unit is a Hach Sension 2 Portable digital nitrate probe

He read your post, what you've wrote does not coincide with the new science. Your assumetion on carbon and nitrogen cycle is incorrect.
the inventor of the process would like to talk to you if care to call him.

His name is Bill, the number 562-428-9973 he is in the office right now.
or you can email him at [email protected]
He will take down your number and call you back so the call won't be on your dime.

This is my opinion, you should not assume something is bad or incorrect because you dont' fully understand it.

Anyone reading this are also welcome to call him.
 

Len

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Please invite Bill to participate here for public discussion. I'm very interested in understanding the processes and constitution of RN bacteria. Hopefully I can also encourage experts more knowledgeable in this field then I am (such as www.advancedaquarist.com authors) to particpate.
 
A

Anonymous

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skylab1":x2aw9mh6 said:
Do I feel a "snake" joke coming up?

What ever happend to having an open mind?

No, I just thought it funny he would choose that as a login name.

Having an open mind means asking questions about what you don't understand, right? I've done that and you have ignored my most important question. Can you please explain why your mushroom corals look like they are dying if your tank is as healthy as you say it is?
 

skylab1

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Matt_Wandell":3v1dbsp1 said:
[
No, I just thought it funny he would choose that as a login name.

Having an open mind means asking questions about what you don't understand, right? I've done that and you have ignored my most important question. Can you please explain why your mushroom corals look like they are dying if your tank is as healthy as you say it is?

As far as I know "snake" is Bill's nickname given to him by his fellow Marines during his service day, so now everybody call him snake.

The mushroom aren't dying in anyway, infact , they have been growing. I would have to take a close up shot of each coral so you can see it in more detail. As soon as I got my camera back from the local camera shop I will take the photo and post it here. Again, I thank you for keeping an open mind.
 

skylab1

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Len":33lpe4wu said:
Please invite Bill to participate here for public discussion. I'm very interested in understanding the processes and constitution of RN bacteria.


I'll pass on the invitation to Bill.
 
A

Anonymous

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Really? Your pictures.
 

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Snake USMC

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Good Day People,

I am Snake. I normally do not inform people how I received the name. I shall make an exception. I was given that name by the Late Sgt. Mac USMC because I can move through the jungles very fast, quietly, as a snake in the grass. Later on (two years) , I tore a man’s throat out with my teeth when he attempted to kill me and my Brother Marine. Enough said.

Since I have receive NO phone calls, which I gladly gave my office phone number to SkyLab1 and said I would call back so the person calling would not be stuck with the large bill.

1st. I do NOT give any confidential information. If you believe I should then please write Northrupt and ask them for the inner workings of their ECW, or Intel and request all their data concerning how they make their chips. When they gladly give you their trade secrets then I shall be next to follow.

2nd . This is NEW SCIENCE. Do not relate anything you have learned before hand because this does not apply to what you learned in the hobby, or school.

3rd . I had 11 years of failures and 5 years in the Patent office. The Examiner, called me numerous times to explain to him (he had is PhD in Bacteria) because it was so radical. Finally when I convinced him and 40,000 dollars poorer, I received my patents.

4th The system is based upon math, nothing else. We have formulas which we use and if one follows the math, it works every time, not some of the time. If you read comments that it did not work, usually one of the parameters is out of whack. We ask people to call and after a series of question tell them what is wrong. They follow our instructions and in 24 hours they see results.

5th Have been in the Carbon Business since 1976. I use to write for TFH magazine a while back. I wrote many articles concerning Activated carbon. What I see posted on these boards makes me laugh because the people are repeating misinformation concerning carbon that others have published, or have “thought to be the case”

6th When using our system, the following happens every time, not just some of the time.
a) 24 total AEROBIC Cycling. This can be achieve in either Fresh, brackish or salt water. I have a 19 L (Five Gallon) tank set up with the box filter, two watchman gobies and 2 percs for SEVEN YEARS. No substrate at all, just the box filter, Trace element blox and a 20 percent water change every two weeks. I no longer check my values because when I have run them through to make sure it was accurate in my HP GC, the values of N and P were in the (for the hobby only I use this term which is incorrect) Parts per Billion not million.
b) Reduction of Nitrates (NO3) AEROBICALLY. As you noticed the Ocean Enviro LLC test clearly shows that. This company is involved in a multi BILLION project concerning Waste Water and Drinking water nitrate reduction. No Mal gas occurs, only N2 and CO2.
c) Reduction of Phosphate. Many of the hobby tanks that have followed our instructions, have shown N=0 and P=0 as long as they keep the TBPC cleaned.
d) Elevation of pH, Ca, etc ALK without precipitation. When I read that post, I realized people were thinking along old science and not new science. We have achieve growth rates of 2.5 to 3 INCHES a year on giant clams whereby normally 1/4 inch or a little more is considered great.

7th No need to use a skimmer. A fractionator in the environmental business is the same as a skimmer in the aquarium business. We DO use fractionators for FRESH WATER. The protein is consumed by this bacteria so quickly your fractionator will no longer function. One less piece of equipment needed and maintained.

8th There are no need for bio balls (which were invented for distilling alcohol) or a fluid bed.

9th The only components needed are TBPC, Right Now! Bacteria, pH Rock (if it is your desire to stabilize your pH and Ca levels in 24 hours, and trace element blox. A pressure filter is the best because the it elevates ONLY in the canister the DO.

10th. The DO (by meter not by aquarium test kits) in Fresh water is usually 10+ ppm (Gas measurement in water) and 8+ ppm in Salt water.

11th No additional pumps are needed. Only the discharge from the filters.

12th No additional filtration is need.

13th, there is NO difference in the normal Nitrogen Cycle in the ocean and in fresh or brackish water. The same with the new Nitrogen L or cycle of mien.

This is an overview for you to digest. We do NOT nor have we in the PAST nor shall we in the FUTURE sell to the public. Please do not ever ask, the answer is NO!


Now to clear up a few misconceived notions.

Water DOES off gas at the surface. Where do you think the ocean, rivers, and streams have their gas exchange rate? That is why the CO2 which does not have a great affinity for water. When CO2 is driven off, it creates a small vacuum and air enters solution.

I suggest you read the book Biological Treatment of sewage and Industrial waste, Aerobic Oxidation, Reinhold Publishing Corporation

Corals inhabit the same ecosystem as fish, thus the flow rates for both should be the same, but in this hobby for some reason someone had decided the flow rates are different.

Concerning lighting Dr Ashley has been conducting year long tests with lighting and the aquarium [email protected] He has found what his scientific data presents is totally opposite of what is touted by the aquarium trade. You most likely can read his reports when he publishes them in his book, but not before hand.

I cannot believe the misinformation concerning Activated Carbon. There are many different carbon materials that Activated Carbon is made of. The CTC or Iodine number (the molasses testing for activity has not been used for years, so when someone quotes that, I smirk) does not reveal the true components of what the carbon is made of and how it will perform. We tailor make carbon for industrial / environmental companies, so we must know what and why certain carbon materials work or do not work in certain cases. Guessing and relaying false information only hurts this hobby without that person knowing they are doing as such.

Now if anyone wishes to contact me via phone again my phone number is 562 428 9973 M-F PST for further information.

Remember the bumble bee cannot fly because of it’s aerodynamics, Man cannot travel faster than 60 miles and hour before he dies, You cannot make and fly in a machine that is heaver than air, how can you be so silly to think pictures can fly through the air and end on a screen so you can see themman can never walk on the moon, and there is no such thing as a 24 totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle for aquarium tanks (or anything else for that matter) because the “experts” have deem it such.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake
[email protected]
http://www.HDLtd.com
 

tinyreef

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skylab1":2b11ubwf said:
Here is data concerning the Aerobic reduction of Nitrates (NO3) done by a third party Ocean Enviro LLC.

Usually solids in the water are measured in Milligrams per Liter. Gas is measured in ppm the conversion from ppm to mg/l is ppm x 1 = mg/L so it is the same value.

1. Start Date: Jan 3, 2006
2. End Date: Jan 10, 2006
3. Daily Values:
1/3: 6,237.0 mg/L
1/4: 4,797.0 mg/L
1/5: 796.0 mg/L Note: Probe out of calibration, had to recondition, erroneous reading
1/6: 2,393.0 mg/L
1/7: 330.0 mg/L
1/8: 54.20 mg/L
1/9: 22.90 mg/L
1/10: 1.10 mg/L

to convert mg/L to ppm/L take the value multiply by 1

4. Test unit is a Hach Sension 2 Portable digital nitrate probe.
maybe i'm not reading it correctly but are you stating that nitrates hit 6.237-grams/liter the first day? or is that the 3rd day?

regardless, how did ammonia-processing and nitrite-processing bacteria colonize so quickly?

is there some missing information like you had introduced other bacteria and a nitrate source already? it doesn't just jump from biomatter straight to nitrate (iirc).

am i reading the data incorrectly? because it also seems like you're missing 3-days in the dating. i.e. is jan. 3 the start date of the tank and then you started the "aerobic method" on jan. 10?
 

skylab1

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Matt_Wandell":18kryf5o said:
Really? Your pictures.

First of all, the pic was taken right after I've move the rock to box the filter into where I wanted to be. Since I have no sand at the bottom, the filter is keep moving around, until I can get two small LR to block the filter I have keep moving the mushroom rock. You know when you move the coral they tend to shrink or close up, next time I take the picture before I move the rock so the mushrooms are all open for the camera.

BTW, I though you were talking about the coral in the big tank no the 5 gallon.
 

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