A
Anonymous
Guest
it's a secret 
it's unfortunate...but seems to be the nature of business and society as it currently exists - that economics will trample ethics every time as a bottom line. I wish it were not so...Collector, wholesale, retail, consumer.....all eventually will sacrifice principle and the greater good to "put food on the table."
how about a ban on the trade, completely - probably won't happen though, so don't worry.
Anyone here a Carl Sagan fan? I don't know if he said it, but I am always reminded of a quote when I watch Cosmos: "If there is any intelligent life elsewhere in the universe....it's not surprising at all that it hasn't contacted us."
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Crete Forum
how about a ban on the trade, completely - probably won't happen though, so don't worry.
Anyone here a Carl Sagan fan? I don't know if he said it, but I am always reminded of a quote when I watch Cosmos: "If there is any intelligent life elsewhere in the universe....it's not surprising at all that it hasn't contacted us."
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Crete Forum
I just heard Carl Sagan speak recently in New York. I'm not a fan, but I do share some of his passion for life and he is a good speaker. I do not feel he has a totally "realistic" view of "sustainable use"..... I feel he is more of the mind to "not use ocean resources" as a means of "conservation"....
Piero, you say you'd love to see a ban on the trade; are you in the trade? Do you have any idea what "the trade" means to many island fishers around the world? There is a BIG difference between ethics on the part of the exporters, importers, retailers and HOBBYISTS from that of the fishers, who USUALLY HAVE NO CHOICE..... THE OCEAN IS THIER ONLY RESOURCE..... Exporters, importers, retailers and hobbyists DO NOT NEED "THE TRADE" TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE LIKE FISHERS DO.....
I also feel that many in the trade feel "better" because they "don't deal in PI fish"....... "I'm not contributing to the problem, cuz I don't deal with "these countries" cuz they "might use cyanide".... More and more fishers in PI, INdo, etc. are quitting this or never did it.... So, let's think about this for a moment; PI fish were the FOUNDATION of "the trades" early beginnings.... "The trade" dealt with millions and millions of PI fish in the early years, as that was the PRIMARY source of marine fish. So, now we're going to dump the poor PI fishers for "better sources"? How pathetic...... Use em' and lose em'.....
I feel "the trade" especially owes the fishers of PI and Indo to help them learn the concept of "sustainablility" and teach them how to do it the right way.....
Mark
Piero, you say you'd love to see a ban on the trade; are you in the trade? Do you have any idea what "the trade" means to many island fishers around the world? There is a BIG difference between ethics on the part of the exporters, importers, retailers and HOBBYISTS from that of the fishers, who USUALLY HAVE NO CHOICE..... THE OCEAN IS THIER ONLY RESOURCE..... Exporters, importers, retailers and hobbyists DO NOT NEED "THE TRADE" TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE LIKE FISHERS DO.....
I also feel that many in the trade feel "better" because they "don't deal in PI fish"....... "I'm not contributing to the problem, cuz I don't deal with "these countries" cuz they "might use cyanide".... More and more fishers in PI, INdo, etc. are quitting this or never did it.... So, let's think about this for a moment; PI fish were the FOUNDATION of "the trades" early beginnings.... "The trade" dealt with millions and millions of PI fish in the early years, as that was the PRIMARY source of marine fish. So, now we're going to dump the poor PI fishers for "better sources"? How pathetic...... Use em' and lose em'.....
I feel "the trade" especially owes the fishers of PI and Indo to help them learn the concept of "sustainablility" and teach them how to do it the right way.....
Mark
Mark...Idunno who you saw speak...but Sagan passed away years ago.
Pacific islanders existed before reef tanks. Sure they are reliant on the ornamental trade now...but if the trade went away...they would find another way to earn a living how about the most obvious...tourism.
don't bother worryin about it though...just a pipe dream.
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Mercedes Benz Vario
Pacific islanders existed before reef tanks. Sure they are reliant on the ornamental trade now...but if the trade went away...they would find another way to earn a living how about the most obvious...tourism.
don't bother worryin about it though...just a pipe dream.
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Mercedes Benz Vario
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
I am a Sagan fan and his was more a message of hope then apathy.
He said;
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.-- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
Its incredible to see so many down on the trade yet apathetic to the remedies.
Remedies that languished thru mis management by the so called good guys in the oft repeated reform charades.
The solution is 25 years old....simple and logical training in sustainable collecting and handling is an old solution yet the trade still gets blamed instead of its mis-managers.
Think of it like a baseball team w/ potential but w/ an incompetent coach that cannot be fired after a decade of bumbling..
In real life, you fire the non producing managers and find someone who can do the job. In fact, you may have to fire several of them but you never tire of the search for the right stuff.
The mission is sound...but the missionary is often not.
Carl Sagan did not believe in every scientist...but he sure belived in science.
Its a far simpler thing to light this candle again, then to curse the darkness.
I have seen a lot more passion for doing nothing then the commitment to do something real and that defines us...not the aquarium trade.
I am not the slightest bit down on the trade...but on its mal-practicioners.
Steve
ps...Tourism is an answer for a scant percentage of fisherfolk anywhere.
It employs so few of the fisherman and raises the cost of living where they live. Most who work in the hotels not locals but are imported from the cities.
It is a false remedy in general yet a nice one for the few that speak some English and smile a lot while step and fetching it for Yanks on vacation.
He said;
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.-- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
Its incredible to see so many down on the trade yet apathetic to the remedies.
Remedies that languished thru mis management by the so called good guys in the oft repeated reform charades.
The solution is 25 years old....simple and logical training in sustainable collecting and handling is an old solution yet the trade still gets blamed instead of its mis-managers.
Think of it like a baseball team w/ potential but w/ an incompetent coach that cannot be fired after a decade of bumbling..
In real life, you fire the non producing managers and find someone who can do the job. In fact, you may have to fire several of them but you never tire of the search for the right stuff.
The mission is sound...but the missionary is often not.
Carl Sagan did not believe in every scientist...but he sure belived in science.
Its a far simpler thing to light this candle again, then to curse the darkness.
I have seen a lot more passion for doing nothing then the commitment to do something real and that defines us...not the aquarium trade.
I am not the slightest bit down on the trade...but on its mal-practicioners.
Steve
ps...Tourism is an answer for a scant percentage of fisherfolk anywhere.
It employs so few of the fisherman and raises the cost of living where they live. Most who work in the hotels not locals but are imported from the cities.
It is a false remedy in general yet a nice one for the few that speak some English and smile a lot while step and fetching it for Yanks on vacation.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Lets consult Sagan on the aquarium trade;
"But amid much elegance and precision, the details of life and the Universe also exhibit haphazard, jury-rigged arrangements and much poor planning. What shall we make of this: an edifice abandoned early in construction by the architect?"
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
"But amid much elegance and precision, the details of life and the Universe also exhibit haphazard, jury-rigged arrangements and much poor planning. What shall we make of this: an edifice abandoned early in construction by the architect?"
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
cortez marine":2py3t7at said:
I totally understand that position. But pacific people subsisted before the glass box was invented...
again...don't bother arguing against my pipe dream. Its just wishful thinking. I'm under no impression that the trade is going anywhere if market demand has anythig to do with it. Yes of course I agree that teaching pacific people sustainable ways to continue what they are already doing is important.
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Loan protection insurance Forum
Piero":1sgpebc8 said:
True, but times have changed in those areas since the glass box was invented, so compairing old times to new, just doesn't cut it really. Money has become a factor, the colonizers offer less support, long boats go further and raid other locals, there's less marine life (depleted by commercial fisheries, etc. Heck, even WWII had a big effect (marine keeping was all ready around prior to wwII)>
Piero":oq1dg4sr said:
And, might I respectfully suggest that the second thing you do is do everything possible to shut down the cyanide trade. IMO this includes supporting the immediate prohibition on the import of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant. (net caught fish excepted)
As you are aware a committee has been set up by the US Government Agency. Write and email them as I have done.
Encourage them to adopt a ban.
Invite them to this forum and note particularly this thread as evidence of the use of cyanide and the pathetic denial by industry that there is a problem.
I have come to the conclusion that those members of the forum who continue to support reeform, net caught education etc. are crying in the wilderness. I commmend them for the work that they have done in the past but would encourage them to join in the voices putting this cancer to our hobby and their industry to an end once and for all.
Wayne Ryan
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
I totally understand that position. But pacific people subsisted before the glass box was invented...
again...don't bother arguing against my pipe dream. Its just wishful thinking.
Piero,
Gresham brings up a point that has not existed in the history of Pacific peoples and that is the paucity of food fishes .
The much grosser mis-management of food fisheries has driven many fishers to seek employment in aquarium fish .
Aquarium fish recruit and recover faster then anything out there so long as habitat remains viable. Therefore, it is not the trade per se that is a bad thing but the abuse of catch methods.
These are tolerated by English speaking bosses and managers of the collecting operations.
This educated elite w/ ties to corrupt or lazy fisheries officials has hardly been a force for good but as more enlightened business people start to mature, this can change.
A model collection/export operation is evolving in Tonga with all good news and upside.
For those of us involved, the best source of coral beauties, bicolor angels, genicanthus species, so many chaetodons and a host of others is no longer S.E.Asia but the South Pacific.
We are in control now and have no insensitive, Marco era Chinese exporter to blame anymore for the lack of results.
Cyanide??? Where?
Steve
again...don't bother arguing against my pipe dream. Its just wishful thinking.
Piero,
Gresham brings up a point that has not existed in the history of Pacific peoples and that is the paucity of food fishes .
The much grosser mis-management of food fisheries has driven many fishers to seek employment in aquarium fish .
Aquarium fish recruit and recover faster then anything out there so long as habitat remains viable. Therefore, it is not the trade per se that is a bad thing but the abuse of catch methods.
These are tolerated by English speaking bosses and managers of the collecting operations.
This educated elite w/ ties to corrupt or lazy fisheries officials has hardly been a force for good but as more enlightened business people start to mature, this can change.
A model collection/export operation is evolving in Tonga with all good news and upside.
For those of us involved, the best source of coral beauties, bicolor angels, genicanthus species, so many chaetodons and a host of others is no longer S.E.Asia but the South Pacific.
We are in control now and have no insensitive, Marco era Chinese exporter to blame anymore for the lack of results.
Cyanide??? Where?
Steve
cortez marine":12uuj0tr said:
Steve,
Do you think the evolution of this model will follow HI and attempt to bypass wholesale? Two of the larger LA wholesalers now appear to be more interested in dropshipping for etailers than in selling to retail stores. This has become such a large part of their business that nothing can reverse the process now. If this trend continues retailers will be forced to look for other options. Hopefully we will see a few retailer friendly wholesalers emerge.
Mitch
Dizzy,
There are already wholesalers that caiter specifically to retailers. Some retailers ask for change and when it is available chose not to support the vision. What i think it is, is that some retailers actually want to see the most devious ones change :roll: but the real question is why? why wait around is my point.
My question to Piero.
What brought you on to this webboard? aquariums no? Without the existence of the trade you dont support, were would concerned people come from? Tourism? The aquarium trade encourages tourism, as it spurs a interest and motivates to see the real thing. I have spent more money visiting foreign countries in the last few years,then i actually keep for my family every year to live on.
Marc@Mac wrote:
Piero, you say you'd love to see a ban on the trade; are you in the trade? Do you have any idea what "the trade" means to many island fishers around the world? There is a BIG difference between ethics on the part of the exporters, importers, retailers and HOBBYISTS from that of the fishers, who USUALLY HAVE NO CHOICE..... THE OCEAN IS THIER ONLY RESOURCE..... Exporters, importers, retailers and hobbyists DO NOT NEED "THE TRADE" TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE LIKE FISHERS DO.....
Really? lets not be so onesided in your approach. We all need somthing. The aquarium industry provides for many families, not just foreign ones. I actually take offense to your insertion that anyone outside the Pacific doesnt need their occupation. I work my ass off just to keep my head above water just like a bunch of people do in this trade including retailers, importers, exporters, fishermen,etc. I need my occupation, because it is the only thing i really have or want....without my reefs i will be in a bad position. Also, i would like to point out that i have hung with many fisherfolk. They are not starving. They arent driving Lotus's or Mercedes like some of the Fat boys in LA but the sea and land takes care of them. I think you are overstating islandlife. Lets not encourage them to hurry up and be us! be careful for what you wish for
There are already wholesalers that caiter specifically to retailers. Some retailers ask for change and when it is available chose not to support the vision. What i think it is, is that some retailers actually want to see the most devious ones change :roll: but the real question is why? why wait around is my point.
My question to Piero.
What brought you on to this webboard? aquariums no? Without the existence of the trade you dont support, were would concerned people come from? Tourism? The aquarium trade encourages tourism, as it spurs a interest and motivates to see the real thing. I have spent more money visiting foreign countries in the last few years,then i actually keep for my family every year to live on.
Marc@Mac wrote:
Piero, you say you'd love to see a ban on the trade; are you in the trade? Do you have any idea what "the trade" means to many island fishers around the world? There is a BIG difference between ethics on the part of the exporters, importers, retailers and HOBBYISTS from that of the fishers, who USUALLY HAVE NO CHOICE..... THE OCEAN IS THIER ONLY RESOURCE..... Exporters, importers, retailers and hobbyists DO NOT NEED "THE TRADE" TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE LIKE FISHERS DO.....
Really? lets not be so onesided in your approach. We all need somthing. The aquarium industry provides for many families, not just foreign ones. I actually take offense to your insertion that anyone outside the Pacific doesnt need their occupation. I work my ass off just to keep my head above water just like a bunch of people do in this trade including retailers, importers, exporters, fishermen,etc. I need my occupation, because it is the only thing i really have or want....without my reefs i will be in a bad position. Also, i would like to point out that i have hung with many fisherfolk. They are not starving. They arent driving Lotus's or Mercedes like some of the Fat boys in LA but the sea and land takes care of them. I think you are overstating islandlife. Lets not encourage them to hurry up and be us! be careful for what you wish for
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