Vitz and Surgeo,
I am asking these questions because I may want to do business with you in the future. Who is the contact person for sales ? Should I contact Mr. Horwitz directly and how would I get a hold of him ?
Thanks, Race Foster
Owner Flying Fish Express and Liveaquaria.com
I am asking these questions because I may want to do business with you in the future. Who is the contact person for sales ? Should I contact Mr. Horwitz directly and how would I get a hold of him ?
Thanks, Race Foster
Owner Flying Fish Express and Liveaquaria.com
I have followed this thread as a hobbiest because it interests me to see what goes on behind the hobby, as a 20 year hobbiest I wanted to address the etail vs. retail that is really the basis of most of the posts in this thread.
The real retail problem is B&M retailers do not want educated, informed hobbiests. The majority of retailers that I have had experience with in the last 20 years want hobbiest who will rely on them to tell them what they need. To be honest I have seen a number of uniformed hobbiests just downright taken advantage of. I live in an area where I have 20+ shops within a 50 mile radius that sell saltwater fisha and coral all but 3 of those shops I would consider subpar at best. The other 3 have very healthy livestock and knowledgable staff, the problem is that 2 of the 3 do not clearly mark the prices of the corals. It is good quality livestock but I have seen that the price can vary depending on the hobbiest and the person giving the price. If I could find one honest retailer that I felt was being straight with me and the rest of his customers I would probably spend a considerable amount of my hobby expenditures in the store.
Too many subpar places selling livestock give the entire retail market a bad name, like it or not its true. What would truly be nice for the industy is if about 75% of the B&M shops were to go away leaving the 25% that provide quality livestock and at least 1/2 way decent advice.
As far as etail goes I am not a cheap hobbiest. I am an educated consumer in the hobby but I am by no means cheap. Having said that I have gotten some of the best quality corals and fish from etailers.
What B&M's should focus on is trying to find a way to get me to want to come into the store. No I do not mean cheapest price, I have gone into stores and dropped $300-400 on a coral because it is something I really wanted, was healthy, etc. Do something to get me to want to buy from you instead of whining about how the etailers are killing you. I dont buy from etailers because they are cheap, I buy from them because I get healtly livestock and I get what I want.
My biggest pet peeve in this hobby is hearing about how B&M shops have to cover overhead, etc as a justification for losing customers to etail. I am sure that you are losing a lot of customers to cheaper prices but you would lose those customers anyway because someone will always be cheaper. Are they really the customers you want? Stop trying to worry about the uninformed comsumers and find a way to attract the knowledgable hobbiest like myself to your establishment, if you gave me a reason to want to come to your store I would come in and more than likely spend money most of the time. As a consumer I wont stop buying online because no B&M can offer the variety of goods that I have at my disposal over the internet however, I wouldnt go straight to the internet without even considering a LFS.
Please stop crying to me, Joe consumer, about why I should be willing to pay you a 50+% markup on goods because you have to cover overhead. I dont come into your store begging for a discount because my mortgage is high and I have to pay for daycare. Find a way to make me want to do business with you and I will be willing to pay a little more.
The real retail problem is B&M retailers do not want educated, informed hobbiests. The majority of retailers that I have had experience with in the last 20 years want hobbiest who will rely on them to tell them what they need. To be honest I have seen a number of uniformed hobbiests just downright taken advantage of. I live in an area where I have 20+ shops within a 50 mile radius that sell saltwater fisha and coral all but 3 of those shops I would consider subpar at best. The other 3 have very healthy livestock and knowledgable staff, the problem is that 2 of the 3 do not clearly mark the prices of the corals. It is good quality livestock but I have seen that the price can vary depending on the hobbiest and the person giving the price. If I could find one honest retailer that I felt was being straight with me and the rest of his customers I would probably spend a considerable amount of my hobby expenditures in the store.
Too many subpar places selling livestock give the entire retail market a bad name, like it or not its true. What would truly be nice for the industy is if about 75% of the B&M shops were to go away leaving the 25% that provide quality livestock and at least 1/2 way decent advice.
As far as etail goes I am not a cheap hobbiest. I am an educated consumer in the hobby but I am by no means cheap. Having said that I have gotten some of the best quality corals and fish from etailers.
What B&M's should focus on is trying to find a way to get me to want to come into the store. No I do not mean cheapest price, I have gone into stores and dropped $300-400 on a coral because it is something I really wanted, was healthy, etc. Do something to get me to want to buy from you instead of whining about how the etailers are killing you. I dont buy from etailers because they are cheap, I buy from them because I get healtly livestock and I get what I want.
My biggest pet peeve in this hobby is hearing about how B&M shops have to cover overhead, etc as a justification for losing customers to etail. I am sure that you are losing a lot of customers to cheaper prices but you would lose those customers anyway because someone will always be cheaper. Are they really the customers you want? Stop trying to worry about the uninformed comsumers and find a way to attract the knowledgable hobbiest like myself to your establishment, if you gave me a reason to want to come to your store I would come in and more than likely spend money most of the time. As a consumer I wont stop buying online because no B&M can offer the variety of goods that I have at my disposal over the internet however, I wouldnt go straight to the internet without even considering a LFS.
Please stop crying to me, Joe consumer, about why I should be willing to pay you a 50+% markup on goods because you have to cover overhead. I dont come into your store begging for a discount because my mortgage is high and I have to pay for daycare. Find a way to make me want to do business with you and I will be willing to pay a little more.
Race, Mr. Horowitz is listed in the corporations search as the agent for process service - a little googling shows that he's an attorney on Wilshire Blvd, in Los Angeles.
I wasn't implying that Mr. Horowitz is the owner - I just copied what was listed on the Sec. of State for CA website.
The site does not disclose who the owner is.
On the old ERI/Biolink, Mr. Miller was the agent for service of process.
If one doesn't list an attorney of counsel, one can put oneself on there.
For my state, the Sec of State website lists the entity's officers - so an owner or an officer is easily accesible public info.
Hope that clears up any confusion that may have arisen from my posting of the information available to the public on "The ERIs".
Jenn
I wasn't implying that Mr. Horowitz is the owner - I just copied what was listed on the Sec. of State for CA website.
The site does not disclose who the owner is.
On the old ERI/Biolink, Mr. Miller was the agent for service of process.
If one doesn't list an attorney of counsel, one can put oneself on there.
For my state, the Sec of State website lists the entity's officers - so an owner or an officer is easily accesible public info.
Hope that clears up any confusion that may have arisen from my posting of the information available to the public on "The ERIs".
Jenn
wrott":3hzvzbi2 said:
That's a 2-way street. I spent countless hours daily - including an hour past store closing last night, educating customers. Problem is also, that too many "hobbyists" don't want to be educated.
I'm not going to argue with you because I happen to agree with you and I believe my customers come back because there IS value in buying from me for the service, knowledge etc. Just know that it works both ways - If I had $1 for everybody that didn't educate themselves and wasted money wherever (online or in another store) on Sea Clone skimmers and Rio pumps and other sub-par equipment, I'd be able to retire.
The fact is, a customer who is educated, knows what he wants, has done his homework and isn't afraid to pay for something of worth, is the best customer. Unfortunately those customers are way outnumbered by those who don't fit that profile.
Jenn
Thanks Jenn,
New question for Vitz. Can you provide me with an owner(s) name so that I may inquire about setting up an account ? I thought that Mr. Horwitz, agent for Exotic Reefs Import , was Rob Miller's attorney. Thanks for the clarification Jenn.
By the way, I have nothing against Rob Miller or his practices. His business practices are his and not mine. I simply want to know more about the company that allows Vitz to be it's legal spokesperson. As a representative of the company, Vitz's words have legal merit for the company, right Mr Horwitz ?
New question for Vitz. Can you provide me with an owner(s) name so that I may inquire about setting up an account ? I thought that Mr. Horwitz, agent for Exotic Reefs Import , was Rob Miller's attorney. Thanks for the clarification Jenn.
By the way, I have nothing against Rob Miller or his practices. His business practices are his and not mine. I simply want to know more about the company that allows Vitz to be it's legal spokesperson. As a representative of the company, Vitz's words have legal merit for the company, right Mr Horwitz ?
JennM":3qwd86ta said:
I dont want to argue, just posting my views. From reading your posts I would guess that you are one of the few quality establishments. You care about the hobby or you wouldnt be here.
JennM":3qwd86ta said:
Therein lies the rub, someone is pushing those seaclones and rio's on the consumer. I think at least 15 of the stores within 50 miles of me sell them. At least one only has Seaclones as a skimmer option, is the retailer giving uneducated hobbiest and honest opinion of the POS skimmer?
JennM":3qwd86ta said:
Unfortunately most retailers I have experienced are more shortsighted than you are
Well it's a double-edged sword. I agree with the "sea clone" example - I don't carry them and I'll tell people why if they ask for one, and I'll encourage them to buy something better - a CPR or Aqua C (which I do carry).
Sometimes they'll listen and buy quality, sometimes they won't. So *theoretically* I lose a sale if they have their heart set on a Sea Clone, they buy it elsewhere (and usually live to regret it).
So the retailer is faced with a couple of decisions - not carry the Clone and risk losing sales, or carry it and make the sale hoping they'll be back later when they realize the error of their ways *g*.
Then the LFS gets slammed for selling crap equipment - we can't do it right no matter what, can we?
The other factor is for a retailer to procure CPR or Aqua C it's a bit more difficult - you have to go through a different vendor - either the manufacturer themself or a non-mainstream distributor that sells them. That can be an inconvenience (a worthwhile one, IMO...) - but when a retailer can get Clones with their regular shipment of stuff every week, no shipping or minimum order beyond what they were buying anyway in salt, fish food, filter cartridges, tanks etc., it's an easy way out.
So like I said - I can see both sides of the coin - I choose not to sell the crap because I think in the long run it does more harm than good - but I can totally understand why some stores do - most stores do.
The real "fix" is that if nobody bought the junk at all, it would either be improved to become something that was a good item to buy, or it would disappear. But hey - the Skilter is still out there, so what can I say?
Jenn
Sometimes they'll listen and buy quality, sometimes they won't. So *theoretically* I lose a sale if they have their heart set on a Sea Clone, they buy it elsewhere (and usually live to regret it).
So the retailer is faced with a couple of decisions - not carry the Clone and risk losing sales, or carry it and make the sale hoping they'll be back later when they realize the error of their ways *g*.
Then the LFS gets slammed for selling crap equipment - we can't do it right no matter what, can we?
The other factor is for a retailer to procure CPR or Aqua C it's a bit more difficult - you have to go through a different vendor - either the manufacturer themself or a non-mainstream distributor that sells them. That can be an inconvenience (a worthwhile one, IMO...) - but when a retailer can get Clones with their regular shipment of stuff every week, no shipping or minimum order beyond what they were buying anyway in salt, fish food, filter cartridges, tanks etc., it's an easy way out.
So like I said - I can see both sides of the coin - I choose not to sell the crap because I think in the long run it does more harm than good - but I can totally understand why some stores do - most stores do.
The real "fix" is that if nobody bought the junk at all, it would either be improved to become something that was a good item to buy, or it would disappear. But hey - the Skilter is still out there, so what can I say?
Jenn
Well again on the other side of that - most people who are going to make a major investment, do a bit of homework on it - cars, appliances, etc. Granted a small tank isn't usually a HUGE investment - but it can be, and you wouldn't believe how many people put those on 75g tanks and even larger... so when you're talking about that, there's possibly an investment of a couple thousand dollars.
Unless there's a ton of people blindly buying other stuff that costs 4 figures... (OK I guess you've got me there!) - then that's not a unique situation.
That's one of the reasons why I don't carry them. Firstly I couldn't look someone in the eye and try to convince them that it's a quality piece of equipment, and secondly, I do agree that if people quit buying and selling the stuff, it would go away.
But the undergravel filter still lives, the Skilter, the Sea Clone, the Visi Jet and a myriad of other stuff that has outlived its usefulness - but as long as there are people trying to cheap their way out of it, and sellers willing to oblige, those items will be around indefinitely.
Defies logic - but there it is.
We had this similar discussion many pages back in the thread - discussing how when people shop around, they'll get a quote from me for a 75-g reef ready system that will range from $1000-2000 depending on the furniture style of cabinet/canopy - but the utilitarian equipment will be the same. Sump, skimmer etc, good lighting...
Send the same customer to Petco or some other retailers and he'll end up with a standard tank, a Fluval or 2, maybe a Sea clone and NO lighting - and he'll be all happy that he saved hundreds versus the specialty store.
Of course 6 months down the road after a pile of dead fish and nitrates through the roof, he'll wonder what the difference might have been...
I guess it's as much about the *way* we do business as what we sell - I just think it's pointless to sell a system that will only cause problems down the road for somebody - if they're going to do it they ought to be prepared to do it right the first time. The person who cheaps it, IF he stays in the hobby, ends up spending a ton more to upgrade crappy stuff, than the one who did it right the first time.
We are in business to make money - not for fun and games, but the short-term cash grab seems to be what it's all about for many. It's not for me. I can only speak for myself in that regard, but having seen the way it goes, and having spoken with people in this industry with a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy, it's no wonder LFS types are often compared to used car salesmen.
One former store owner in this city told me once that if a customer asks, he'll give them good advice, but if they don't ask, he had no problem bagging up the "Dory" for that 6g Eclipse....... :roll:
Jenn
Unless there's a ton of people blindly buying other stuff that costs 4 figures... (OK I guess you've got me there!) - then that's not a unique situation.
That's one of the reasons why I don't carry them. Firstly I couldn't look someone in the eye and try to convince them that it's a quality piece of equipment, and secondly, I do agree that if people quit buying and selling the stuff, it would go away.
But the undergravel filter still lives, the Skilter, the Sea Clone, the Visi Jet and a myriad of other stuff that has outlived its usefulness - but as long as there are people trying to cheap their way out of it, and sellers willing to oblige, those items will be around indefinitely.
Defies logic - but there it is.
We had this similar discussion many pages back in the thread - discussing how when people shop around, they'll get a quote from me for a 75-g reef ready system that will range from $1000-2000 depending on the furniture style of cabinet/canopy - but the utilitarian equipment will be the same. Sump, skimmer etc, good lighting...
Send the same customer to Petco or some other retailers and he'll end up with a standard tank, a Fluval or 2, maybe a Sea clone and NO lighting - and he'll be all happy that he saved hundreds versus the specialty store.
Of course 6 months down the road after a pile of dead fish and nitrates through the roof, he'll wonder what the difference might have been...
I guess it's as much about the *way* we do business as what we sell - I just think it's pointless to sell a system that will only cause problems down the road for somebody - if they're going to do it they ought to be prepared to do it right the first time. The person who cheaps it, IF he stays in the hobby, ends up spending a ton more to upgrade crappy stuff, than the one who did it right the first time.
We are in business to make money - not for fun and games, but the short-term cash grab seems to be what it's all about for many. It's not for me. I can only speak for myself in that regard, but having seen the way it goes, and having spoken with people in this industry with a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy, it's no wonder LFS types are often compared to used car salesmen.
One former store owner in this city told me once that if a customer asks, he'll give them good advice, but if they don't ask, he had no problem bagging up the "Dory" for that 6g Eclipse....... :roll:
Jenn
And at the risk of rambling... just one other point that is seldom made in a message board thread by a hobbyist ripping the LFS that sold them junk...
I'd bet that more LFS than not, will OFFER and try to sell superior equipment, but the hobbyist opts for the junk to save a dollar.
I've seen this happen many times - I quote a system, they go and buy the Fluval setup elsewhere, when they come to me with problems, they rip on whomever sold them the junk - well - they bought the junk, even after having had it carefully explained to them *why* they should get a reef ready tank, sump and a decent skimmer.
I don't slam other stores to customers, that would be unprofessional, and I can't slam my customer for being a dumbass even if I know how it went down... but I often just shake my head - too many people go around asking the same question until they get the answer they want to hear, not the one they need to hear, and then it's somebody else's fault when they make a bad choice.
I'm not trying to shift blame - but I would like to point out that the ultimate responsibility is with the end-user. It's way too easy to blame somebody else for bad choices. The information is out there, just some folks don't want to make use of it - and it's not always the LFS that "steers" somebody the wrong way - we just get blamed for it.
Jenn
I'd bet that more LFS than not, will OFFER and try to sell superior equipment, but the hobbyist opts for the junk to save a dollar.
I've seen this happen many times - I quote a system, they go and buy the Fluval setup elsewhere, when they come to me with problems, they rip on whomever sold them the junk - well - they bought the junk, even after having had it carefully explained to them *why* they should get a reef ready tank, sump and a decent skimmer.
I don't slam other stores to customers, that would be unprofessional, and I can't slam my customer for being a dumbass even if I know how it went down... but I often just shake my head - too many people go around asking the same question until they get the answer they want to hear, not the one they need to hear, and then it's somebody else's fault when they make a bad choice.
I'm not trying to shift blame - but I would like to point out that the ultimate responsibility is with the end-user. It's way too easy to blame somebody else for bad choices. The information is out there, just some folks don't want to make use of it - and it's not always the LFS that "steers" somebody the wrong way - we just get blamed for it.
Jenn
I agree the ultimate responsibility is the users, however, when the user goes to an LFS and asks for advice, they have no reason at all to believe the advice is may be poor. This is a store, its their business to know all this stuff.
Lots of people go to a dealership and by a car they see there without doing much research. Its why the rep of car salesman is not so great - the get people to buy cars, not to do research about which car is right. Saturn made a go of it by saying they were the exact opposite. Same with appliances - most people don't do much research, they go to the appliance store and look for one they like and then buy it.
Many LFS don't carry good stuff, they carry what they happen to have on hand, and they don't want to keep it on hand so they try to sell it. Sadly, most people can only see the short term, so they only see the short term cash grab. Its too bad that it seems these kinds of LFS outnumber the ones that are willing to do a good job. Its also why I think, with the e market, we will see a thinning of LFS, and hopefully mostly the good ones will remain. Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
Lots of people go to a dealership and by a car they see there without doing much research. Its why the rep of car salesman is not so great - the get people to buy cars, not to do research about which car is right. Saturn made a go of it by saying they were the exact opposite.
Same with appliances - most people don't do much research, they go to the appliance store and look for one they like and then buy it. Many LFS don't carry good stuff, they carry what they happen to have on hand, and they don't want to keep it on hand so they try to sell it. Sadly, most people can only see the short term, so they only see the short term cash grab. Its too bad that it seems these kinds of LFS outnumber the ones that are willing to do a good job. Its also why I think, with the e market, we will see a thinning of LFS, and hopefully mostly the good ones will remain. Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
Thales":3ewtx3jg said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
wrott":16ainyur said:Thales":16ainyur said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
Water testing? Home consultation? Maintenance? Can you have them assemble your purchase? Get warranty service without getting stuck for shipping? Replace that worn impeller in your pump? Find you a new widget from their salvage box?
Can't get those things from an etailer - and I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there - just like some LFS are better than others, so are some etailers, but they just can't provide those services unless you're local to them and they allow walk-ins.
I've had people buy stuff online and bring it to us for assembly - well we charge for that - UNLESS they bought it from me - then we will assemble it or plumb it or whatever for free.
Those few things are things I do on a daily basis - and no etailer can do those things from a phone line or an online shopping cart. They might be able to walk you though it but they can't SHOW you or do it for you.
Granted, many of the folks that frequent these boards can do all that stuff themselves, but there are still a lot of people that are intimidated by the thought of taking an impeller out of a pump to clean it -let alone replace it.
We retailers always get scolded for painting all etailers with the same brush - but it seems to me that there are some hobbyists out there that are quite willing to paint all LFS with the same brush too.
Jenn
I think there are very good points on both sides. I grew up in the veterinary trade and there was a time in the 1980's when Veterinarians feared catalogs selling animal health products. All the battles that I am fighting here were hashed out once before in the veterinary trade. The Medical Doctors had the same issues with Pharmacists.
As it turned out catalogs and Ecommerce altered animal health buying habits but the veterinary clinics flourished by selling their services and depending less on vaccinations, vitamins and food sales. Medical Doctors did the same.
There is no one buying habit that fits all customers. Some like retail, others Ecommerce and many simply use both. The secret is in giving the customer what they want, they will demand it. The dollars are not as big in this industry as in the two aforementioned, but the idea is the same.
There is no doubt that the American consumer is adapting to the web but they will not altogether abandon retail. It never happened in the other pet divisions either. Both Petco and Petsmarts outgrew Foster and Smith by a mile and I started at about the same time. They simply had a better idea----- and it was called retail.
I am sure that we will continue to have our differences and the landscape will surely change. In the end, a balanced business plan in either segment will prosper.
Race
As it turned out catalogs and Ecommerce altered animal health buying habits but the veterinary clinics flourished by selling their services and depending less on vaccinations, vitamins and food sales. Medical Doctors did the same.
There is no one buying habit that fits all customers. Some like retail, others Ecommerce and many simply use both. The secret is in giving the customer what they want, they will demand it. The dollars are not as big in this industry as in the two aforementioned, but the idea is the same.
There is no doubt that the American consumer is adapting to the web but they will not altogether abandon retail. It never happened in the other pet divisions either. Both Petco and Petsmarts outgrew Foster and Smith by a mile and I started at about the same time. They simply had a better idea----- and it was called retail.
I am sure that we will continue to have our differences and the landscape will surely change. In the end, a balanced business plan in either segment will prosper.
Race
JennM":q4amhrtc said:wrott":q4amhrtc said:Thales":q4amhrtc said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
Water testing? Home consultation? Maintenance? Can you have them assemble your purchase? Get warranty service without getting stuck for shipping? Replace that worn impeller in your pump? Find you a new widget from their salvage box?
Can't get those things from an etailer - and I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there - just like some LFS are better than others, so are some etailers, but they just can't provide those services unless you're local to them and they allow walk-ins.
I've had people buy stuff online and bring it to us for assembly - well we charge for that - UNLESS they bought it from me - then we will assemble it or plumb it or whatever for free.
Those few things are things I do on a daily basis - and no etailer can do those things from a phone line or an online shopping cart. They might be able to walk you though it but they can't SHOW you or do it for you.
Granted, many of the folks that frequent these boards can do all that stuff themselves, but there are still a lot of people that are intimidated by the thought of taking an impeller out of a pump to clean it -let alone replace it.
We retailers always get scolded for painting all etailers with the same brush - but it seems to me that there are some hobbyists out there that are quite willing to paint all LFS with the same brush too.
Jenn
that, in a nutshell, was the single most frustrating thing for me about being a csr at marine depot-trying to walk a relative newbie through assembling and dialing in a korallin reactor by phone would take easily 45 minutes,and loads of repetition,when in an lfs setting, it would've taken me 10, and a one time explanation.
and csr's get their phone times monitored, and are pressured to keep them at a minimum- that was one of the reasons i eventually became progressively short tempered at work
pyrrhus":i3i506jk said:
Well, it is amusing. Those with some business experience know that, more than enough times, partnership, even when it's done only between two persons, does not work in the log run. Imagine the result, when tens, if not hundreds of people, each with their own ego and ideas, get together trying to form and run such enterprise, not for making money, but to -maybe- save, a few hundred dollars. I wonder who’s the genius...
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