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JennM":n9lvyugt said:wrott":n9lvyugt said:Thales":n9lvyugt said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
Water testing? Home consultation? Maintenance? Can you have them assemble your purchase? Get warranty service without getting stuck for shipping? Replace that worn impeller in your pump? Find you a new widget from their salvage box?
Jenn
You make some good points. I guess I have just become self sufficient in all these years in the hobby, test my own water, do my own maintenance, assembly, have back up pumps a generator, etc and when I need a widget I can usually figure something out at Lowes or Home Depot
I agree all the things you mentioned are needed in the hobby and can usually be provided by a retailer, but as I said in my original post the good retailers are getting a black eye because there are far more bad retailers than good right now. I bet you of the 20+ retailers in my 50 miles radius maybe 3 of them would be able to dial in my Schuran reactor, the other 15 would look at me like I was crazy and 10 of those 15 would tell me that dosing is better because they carry B-Ionic but dont carry reactors :wink:
Our reef club has new hobbiest night every couple months to go over some of the very basic things in the hobby, we usually put fliers in the shops that are supportive of the club. But as you mentioned about your local club, ours too is become a cheapskate buyers club so I dont know what the longer term success of eduction and LFS support will be there. And for the record I dont participate because the pain in the ass of a group buy isnt worth the $3 I would save.
Kinda like the crazy looks I get when I tell the public that they need $500 bucks in lights, a $400 dollar reactor and a 300 plus skimmer ........to do it right.wrott":2f0j2gwo said:
See as retailers we have to gently sway the public into this hobby.
Kinda like putting the frog in the pot to cook.
If you try placing the hobbyists directly into the 4,000 dollar set up ....he like the frog will instantly jump out of the deal.
You have to slowly turn up the heat gradually.
If I knew I was going to have to spend thousands top get a set up that fit my dreams....I would have never got into the hobby.
Kalkbreath":2gtpiw8b said:
I agree and acknowledge that retailers play a role in bringing new people into the hobby, but there are many ways that people get attracted to the hobby, not just browsing their LFS.
My point is, I guess, to let the 25% of the LFS that are actually reputable establishments with good husbandry practice, ethical business practices, etc attract the new hobbiest, if etail puts the other 75% out of business I think the hobby, and the reefs, will be better for it in the long run.
But your comparing dogs and cats , a pet which 99 percent of the public already identifies as a possible pet choice....Race":1m8h9sps said:
To Marine /reef aquariums of which 99 percent of the public doesnt even realize as possible hobby or pet choice. Four legged pets and sps corals are hardly a compatible juxtaposition.
Sure , Nemo did have an impact on the publics understanding of fish only aquarium set ups.( and how the fish want to get back to the sea) But that faint recollection of a six year old Cartoon movie, hardly compares to the tens of thousands of random acts of puppy dreaming and mommy "I want a kitty" episodes which take place unprovoked and with out the need for product reinforcement by retail stores.
"I wanna reef tank" is not a craving the general public experiences on their own.
" I wanna puppy " would sound out on its own at many a child's birthday party ...even if all veterinarians and big box pet stores vanished tomorrow. (These establishments dont create the demand)
This hobby is dead when the brick and mortar LFS vanish.
I bet I can prove my point with a map of delivery location which an etailer sends livestock and a map showing the cities and towns across the USA which dont have brick and mortars fish stores.Kalkbreath":2u6apppl said:
What ya bet that there is a direct coral ation?
Kinda like ambulance chasers and road ways. No market with out the latter.
....if I could just get a hold of such a map.
pyrrhus":1fykek4g said:
Grrr, I just got nailled by the RC 1:30 PST shutdown and my last post did not make it
Some one on the thread mentioned bringing the discussion over here :lol:
My post was:
<runs to get popcorn and a beer>
vitz":25tixa6e said:JennM":25tixa6e said:wrott":25tixa6e said:Thales":25tixa6e said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
Water testing? Home consultation? Maintenance? Can you have them assemble your purchase? Get warranty service without getting stuck for shipping? Replace that worn impeller in your pump? Find you a new widget from their salvage box?
Can't get those things from an etailer - and I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there - just like some LFS are better than others, so are some etailers, but they just can't provide those services unless you're local to them and they allow walk-ins.
I've had people buy stuff online and bring it to us for assembly - well we charge for that - UNLESS they bought it from me - then we will assemble it or plumb it or whatever for free.
Those few things are things I do on a daily basis - and no etailer can do those things from a phone line or an online shopping cart. They might be able to walk you though it but they can't SHOW you or do it for you.
Granted, many of the folks that frequent these boards can do all that stuff themselves, but there are still a lot of people that are intimidated by the thought of taking an impeller out of a pump to clean it -let alone replace it.
We retailers always get scolded for painting all etailers with the same brush - but it seems to me that there are some hobbyists out there that are quite willing to paint all LFS with the same brush too.
Jenn
that, in a nutshell, was the single most frustrating thing for me about being a csr at marine depot-trying to walk a relative newbie through assembling and dialing in a korallin reactor by phone would take easily 45 minutes,and loads of repetition,when in an lfs setting, it would've taken me 10, and a one time explanation.
and csr's get their phone times monitored, and are pressured to keep them at a minimum- that was one of the reasons i eventually became progressively short tempered at work
You know, Vitz, when you were working at MD, you tried to convince me that a customer *could* send in a water sample for testing.
Funny how times change
Jenn
GreshamH":a0vq9j0x said:pyrrhus":a0vq9j0x said:
Grrr, I just got nailled by the RC 1:30 PST shutdown and my last post did not make it
Some one on the thread mentioned bringing the discussion over here :lol:
My post was:
<runs to get popcorn and a beer>
If I had $1 for every time some bunch of folks brought that idea up - a cheap co-op where everybody gets stuff almost free and they all work together to run the place.
Won't work - too many cooks in the kitchen and barely a one has a clue how to run a business.
If it was *easy*, everybody would do it - but it's not.
Jenn
Kalk.
The point that I was attempting to make is that they will not vanish. Sure they feel pressure but lfs too are evolving. Your Atlanta store and etail site are prime examples. It is not as simple as retail vs Etail or lfs vs Big Box. There are businesses that represent all of the above and everything in between. Remember that most etailers have failed too, it is not just some lfs that have not made it. Examples include PetStore.com, Pets.com, Flying Fish Express ( which was owned by the above two after ERI but before Rob Miller et al bought it back and sold it to me). Etailers are not getting rich while your local stores are closing. I will not go into my Etail profitability again because most fail to believe it. If one thinks Etail is low overhead,easy and that is where the money is---o.k.
I want to thank all on this board who have personally contacted me via PM and through work email. Your comments are appreciated. I will be gone for the next week as I am heading to Montana for lambing and calving. It is spring on the prairie.
Thanks, Race
The point that I was attempting to make is that they will not vanish. Sure they feel pressure but lfs too are evolving. Your Atlanta store and etail site are prime examples. It is not as simple as retail vs Etail or lfs vs Big Box. There are businesses that represent all of the above and everything in between. Remember that most etailers have failed too, it is not just some lfs that have not made it. Examples include PetStore.com, Pets.com, Flying Fish Express ( which was owned by the above two after ERI but before Rob Miller et al bought it back and sold it to me). Etailers are not getting rich while your local stores are closing. I will not go into my Etail profitability again because most fail to believe it. If one thinks Etail is low overhead,easy and that is where the money is---o.k.
I want to thank all on this board who have personally contacted me via PM and through work email. Your comments are appreciated. I will be gone for the next week as I am heading to Montana for lambing and calving. It is spring on the prairie.
Thanks, Race
Race,
Very few established LFS's will remain, and most will fold after a few years to be replaced by someone else ready to loose their life savings on a dream. There will always be LFS's but I think none will make it long term since its a 14x7 job and not great pay in most cases. I don't think I know any LFS without a huge labor overhead or simply an overworked owner. I love to do the work no problems but the family sure hate it, beats the heck outta the corporate world.
I think most LFS's attack the etail practice of dropshipping, if you stock and house 100% of what you ship then it's not low overhead. But with the shear volume available online you definately turn the livestock over in the tank making the cost of housing each fish much cheaper. If a LFS keeps a rare or expensive fish for more then a month the food cost to house that fish, plus the tank space gets up there as you know. That is where LFS's need to get online to compete and move the stock out, but with dropshippers never touching a fish and zero overhead they will always be able to undercut those that house their stock, even if the wholesalers charge em 1 or 2 bucks more.
I can't wait to see the next evolution in etail business, outsourcing support to India..............
Very few established LFS's will remain, and most will fold after a few years to be replaced by someone else ready to loose their life savings on a dream. There will always be LFS's but I think none will make it long term since its a 14x7 job and not great pay in most cases. I don't think I know any LFS without a huge labor overhead or simply an overworked owner. I love to do the work no problems but the family sure hate it, beats the heck outta the corporate world.
I think most LFS's attack the etail practice of dropshipping, if you stock and house 100% of what you ship then it's not low overhead. But with the shear volume available online you definately turn the livestock over in the tank making the cost of housing each fish much cheaper. If a LFS keeps a rare or expensive fish for more then a month the food cost to house that fish, plus the tank space gets up there as you know. That is where LFS's need to get online to compete and move the stock out, but with dropshippers never touching a fish and zero overhead they will always be able to undercut those that house their stock, even if the wholesalers charge em 1 or 2 bucks more.
I can't wait to see the next evolution in etail business, outsourcing support to India..............
I just read the first couple pages of that thread and laughed. i thought, they cant be serious...but then I realized they were
As for LFS, they will dissapear slowly. To last you must specialize...unbfortunate, but true. I see the trend pushing towards high end for LFS. Sfiligoi, Geisemann, Elos, RE etc... If someone is going to spend $3,000 on a skimmer, most want to see it running and have the support to dial it in correctly.
eric
As for LFS, they will dissapear slowly. To last you must specialize...unbfortunate, but true. I see the trend pushing towards high end for LFS. Sfiligoi, Geisemann, Elos, RE etc... If someone is going to spend $3,000 on a skimmer, most want to see it running and have the support to dial it in correctly.
eric
JennM":1aq18kh8 said:vitz":1aq18kh8 said:JennM":1aq18kh8 said:wrott":1aq18kh8 said:Thales":1aq18kh8 said:Besides, setting up an e store is easier and cheaper than an B&M.
That is true for sure, however I can honestly say I have gotten some of the best service and honest advice via phone conversation with one of the better known Etailers. Etialers are generally cheaper however, they are, in many cases, offering more to the customer than most LFS's.
Water testing? Home consultation? Maintenance? Can you have them assemble your purchase? Get warranty service without getting stuck for shipping? Replace that worn impeller in your pump? Find you a new widget from their salvage box?
Can't get those things from an etailer - and I'm not saying there aren't good ones out there - just like some LFS are better than others, so are some etailers, but they just can't provide those services unless you're local to them and they allow walk-ins.
I've had people buy stuff online and bring it to us for assembly - well we charge for that - UNLESS they bought it from me - then we will assemble it or plumb it or whatever for free.
Those few things are things I do on a daily basis - and no etailer can do those things from a phone line or an online shopping cart. They might be able to walk you though it but they can't SHOW you or do it for you.
Granted, many of the folks that frequent these boards can do all that stuff themselves, but there are still a lot of people that are intimidated by the thought of taking an impeller out of a pump to clean it -let alone replace it.
We retailers always get scolded for painting all etailers with the same brush - but it seems to me that there are some hobbyists out there that are quite willing to paint all LFS with the same brush too.
Jenn
that, in a nutshell, was the single most frustrating thing for me about being a csr at marine depot-trying to walk a relative newbie through assembling and dialing in a korallin reactor by phone would take easily 45 minutes,and loads of repetition,when in an lfs setting, it would've taken me 10, and a one time explanation.
and csr's get their phone times monitored, and are pressured to keep them at a minimum- that was one of the reasons i eventually became progressively short tempered at work
You know, Vitz, when you were working at MD, you tried to convince me that a customer *could* send in a water sample for testing.
Funny how times change
Jenn
er- *could*, and i believe did-my above post has nothing to do with what i said back then
I am going to try to behave myself and not get into bashing any particular individual but,I have a question for the Whole salers doing drop shipping for etail.
Do you have priority guarentee agreements with them? When I log onto a sight like, say TFO, and it says they have a male Japanese Swallow Tail Angel. I purchase that angel and they ship it to me the next day. Do you the wholesaler that has drop ship agreements with these companies give them priority status since they just sold that angel out of your holding system?
I ask this because I tried for all most 2 yrs to get a male swallow tail, a male wantanabe, heck even female swallow tails and watanabeis, from a wholsaler in LA that I have an account with. I would recieve the stock list from the wholesaler, scramble to get together an order with the aquarium maintenence company I work with and hold fish for, then call and fax an order into the wholesaler. When I talked to the rep (his name changed every couple months) everything would be fine and good to go. Then when I got to the airport to pick up the shipment all I had in the order was the snails (without nassarius and plenty of extra astrea), the shrimp, the yellow tangs the nemo's and the usual crap I can get from anyone. NO wantabe angels (male or female), no male swallow tail ect........
It really makes me mad when my wholesaler puts out a sweet stock list but when I try to get it , it's not available, or they bait and switch on me. Instead of the nice stuff I put the order in for, I get all the normal stuff I didn't really need, just ordered so I could get the sweet stuff. (because of course I have to order the other stuff or they wouldn't sell to me...... something about cherry picking or .......)
BTW, I just got my Male Watanabei Angel. I asked my friend that is an importer to get me one and I had it in two weeks. He's also getting the others for me for my clients.
Do you have priority guarentee agreements with them? When I log onto a sight like, say TFO, and it says they have a male Japanese Swallow Tail Angel. I purchase that angel and they ship it to me the next day. Do you the wholesaler that has drop ship agreements with these companies give them priority status since they just sold that angel out of your holding system?
I ask this because I tried for all most 2 yrs to get a male swallow tail, a male wantanabe, heck even female swallow tails and watanabeis, from a wholsaler in LA that I have an account with. I would recieve the stock list from the wholesaler, scramble to get together an order with the aquarium maintenence company I work with and hold fish for, then call and fax an order into the wholesaler. When I talked to the rep (his name changed every couple months) everything would be fine and good to go. Then when I got to the airport to pick up the shipment all I had in the order was the snails (without nassarius and plenty of extra astrea), the shrimp, the yellow tangs the nemo's and the usual crap I can get from anyone. NO wantabe angels (male or female), no male swallow tail ect........
It really makes me mad when my wholesaler puts out a sweet stock list but when I try to get it , it's not available, or they bait and switch on me. Instead of the nice stuff I put the order in for, I get all the normal stuff I didn't really need, just ordered so I could get the sweet stuff. (because of course I have to order the other stuff or they wouldn't sell to me...... something about cherry picking or .......)
BTW, I just got my Male Watanabei Angel. I asked my friend that is an importer to get me one and I had it in two weeks. He's also getting the others for me for my clients.
I also have a question related to my last one for Dr. Foster. (if you wouldn't mind, please)
Being that you have a very large company with huge buying power, do you have agreements with the wholesalers? Do they give you priority shipments because of your volume purchases or are you treated the same as the rest of us and have to rely on first come policy that most of the big boy wholesalers would like us to believe they apply so fairly.
Being that you have a very large company with huge buying power, do you have agreements with the wholesalers? Do they give you priority shipments because of your volume purchases or are you treated the same as the rest of us and have to rely on first come policy that most of the big boy wholesalers would like us to believe they apply so fairly.
Brian,
We actually don't see many Watenabi angel males that we see. The way it would work for us is that if a customer wanted this fish or any other "hard to get" fish, the customer would tell the rep to keep an eye out for it. If we got one of the fish, AND the rep was on his toes, he would tag the fish for the customer. Then, after notifying the customer that the fish has been tagged, put the order through with a note on the order saying, "tagged - See me". With any luck, the fish would still be in it's cubicle with the "tag" sign on it. A few other factors would apply, but hopefully it goes smoothly and the customer gets his Watenabi......
It's not a perfect world..especially in the livestock business with so many factors, but that's basically how we would run it down. People are people, and some reps are better than others and there are times we have customers request a different rep for whatever reason and we oblige.....so it's all part of the equation.
Your other question about shipping priority....well, it's really how the orders are selected to be packed during the day. Some shipments have earlier flights to make, so those orders get packed earlier. There is never an order that get's priority over an other for any reason other than flight restrictions.
I don't know how other wholesalers handle their priorities...but that's pretty much the jist of it.
Happy to answer other questions if you have any.
Thanks and regards
Eric
We actually don't see many Watenabi angel males that we see. The way it would work for us is that if a customer wanted this fish or any other "hard to get" fish, the customer would tell the rep to keep an eye out for it. If we got one of the fish, AND the rep was on his toes, he would tag the fish for the customer. Then, after notifying the customer that the fish has been tagged, put the order through with a note on the order saying, "tagged - See me". With any luck, the fish would still be in it's cubicle with the "tag" sign on it. A few other factors would apply, but hopefully it goes smoothly and the customer gets his Watenabi......
It's not a perfect world..especially in the livestock business with so many factors, but that's basically how we would run it down. People are people, and some reps are better than others and there are times we have customers request a different rep for whatever reason and we oblige.....so it's all part of the equation.
Your other question about shipping priority....well, it's really how the orders are selected to be packed during the day. Some shipments have earlier flights to make, so those orders get packed earlier. There is never an order that get's priority over an other for any reason other than flight restrictions.
I don't know how other wholesalers handle their priorities...but that's pretty much the jist of it.
Happy to answer other questions if you have any.
Thanks and regards
Eric
Thanks for the answer Eric and I understand that Watenabis are hard to come by. I do have another question. If you are drop shipping Fedx for blah.com can I and all the other stores that aren't 15 min from the airport ship Fedx as well. I understand that an upcharge woud be in order, but in my case 3-6hrs round trip to the airport (with or/ without traffic or missing a Ferry boat ect....) plus gas, plus ferry tickets, plus paying someone to go if I can't ect... That would really be worth it to me. All my shipments from ORA, Ocean Riders and several others come this way and I love it. I'm sure many of the other stores on the Olympic Penninsula would love it too.
Also, if you are drop shipping 1 or 2 or 3 items for blah.com do they get a below the minimum order charge like we do? Can I just put in a standing order for a masked japanese swallow tail angel and have you drop ship it to me like you do for them?
On a side note:
As far as sales reps go I have not had much luck with your company since you handed my account to Sasha and then she left. Stacy (Aquatic Lifestyles) and I have not had that much luck with getting the same sales rep when we have ordered in the last 1 1/2 yrs. I understand we are a very small customer and if you prefer to cater to large companies that's fine.
And while I have your ear.... have you thought about updating your stock list system? One of your neighbors has a very nice one that updates daily on their web-site. I don't have to rely on a sales rep for 8 phone calls, I can just look at the updated list. Neat system, it might be worth a look to you.
I'm not just picking on Eric and SDC, I just think it would be nice for everyone to know where we stand.
I could rattle off a list of wholesalers that everyone knows and I would bet we (the B&M) have had similar experiences with them all.
Also, if you are drop shipping 1 or 2 or 3 items for blah.com do they get a below the minimum order charge like we do? Can I just put in a standing order for a masked japanese swallow tail angel and have you drop ship it to me like you do for them?
On a side note:
As far as sales reps go I have not had much luck with your company since you handed my account to Sasha and then she left. Stacy (Aquatic Lifestyles) and I have not had that much luck with getting the same sales rep when we have ordered in the last 1 1/2 yrs. I understand we are a very small customer and if you prefer to cater to large companies that's fine.
And while I have your ear.... have you thought about updating your stock list system? One of your neighbors has a very nice one that updates daily on their web-site. I don't have to rely on a sales rep for 8 phone calls, I can just look at the updated list. Neat system, it might be worth a look to you.
I'm not just picking on Eric and SDC, I just think it would be nice for everyone to know where we stand.
I could rattle off a list of wholesalers that everyone knows and I would bet we (the B&M) have had similar experiences with them all.
Brian,
Yes...we offer a drop-ship program to any of our retail customers. We do have a miniumum order fee per order, and you would have to average in weekly sales over $400/wk in order to qualify. I can discuss the fees further with you over private messaging.
I am sorry you didn't realize it, but on our website, you can download the daily "updated" stocklist. All our customers have passwords to access the stocklist via the website and we update it every evening for what has run out of stock, and what new arrivals have come in as well. Email me and I will give you your password.
It made me sad when you mentioned Sasha.....she was great and very sweet. It was unfortunate that due to her health issues, she was unable to continue to work with us. She's working for Hagen now and seems very happy. I feel that currently we have the best sales staff we ever have had......so please feel free to call me anytime and I will place you with any one of our great reps.
Best regards
Eric
Yes...we offer a drop-ship program to any of our retail customers. We do have a miniumum order fee per order, and you would have to average in weekly sales over $400/wk in order to qualify. I can discuss the fees further with you over private messaging.
I am sorry you didn't realize it, but on our website, you can download the daily "updated" stocklist. All our customers have passwords to access the stocklist via the website and we update it every evening for what has run out of stock, and what new arrivals have come in as well. Email me and I will give you your password.
It made me sad when you mentioned Sasha.....she was great and very sweet. It was unfortunate that due to her health issues, she was unable to continue to work with us. She's working for Hagen now and seems very happy. I feel that currently we have the best sales staff we ever have had......so please feel free to call me anytime and I will place you with any one of our great reps.
Best regards
Eric
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