Who needs wholesalers/LFS/etailers, let's do a group buy

[JennM]

There are two owners of Tropical Fish Outlet....you can call the number and find out if interested. I do know who the owners are, but I don't know if that information they would want posted... If anyone is suspecting this company is owned by SDC....it couldn't be farther from the truth. We have seen what happens when wholesalers involve themselves with etailers and it's not a direction we would want to mess with.

I will mention this to their attention...I am sure they will appreciate the publicity.

Best regards....

Oops.....it did happen on three orders....some mixup in the back. Not exactly a happy moment over here. I'm busted!

And...to clarify...those flyers were Acclimation sheets.....not a promotional ploy....but truly an honest boo boo.

Gracefully,

I'm dense, so bear with me. If you don't deal with dropshippers or etailers. How do "their" flyers get in your boxes of fish? Are you dropshipping? These guys have there own holding facility? Buy off your stock list at wholesale prices [before or after stores get orders filled]. Are they jobbers filling retail orders weekly?

I wasn't the only one asking... so did Spawner. Spawner was the one who suggested that you'd made the claim you didn't deal with drop shippers or etailers - so please don't put words in my mouth. We aren't trying to tar and feather you - just asking clarity on *one* issue. You were the one who stated that "We have seen what happens when wholesalers involve themselves with etailers and it's not a direction we would want to mess with." Then you turn around and you acknowledge that you're selling to etailers and drop-shipping.

Now if your comment was meant to say, -We have seen what happens when wholesalers are proprietors of etail businesses and it's not a direction we would want to mess with- then that's another thing. It's hard to know the exact context of what you said because of the statement made immediately before that. Taken out of context, with what was said in later posts, I'm sure you can see how some folks may have seen that as carelessness with the truth

Nobody accused you of being an owner of TFO either, at least not that I saw. You were asked who owned it, and you replied to the poster to ask that of them himself. Must be a state secret or something I never realized that concealing one's identity as a store owner was good for business... You were the one who brought up the notion of TFO being owned by SDC - and you stated it wasn't so. I have no cause to doubt that.

What I'm "after" in my pursuit of truth here has less to do with SDC than it does with TFO, and I've addressed my questions directly to them.

I contend that IF they are drop-shipping then they didn't answer my question completely truthfully, and that is misleading. If they'd come back with a reply like Race did (and he gets points for that, BTW) that a percentage is shipped from their own facility, and some are not - that would have been an honest answer.

Race's company was confronted on this and as far as I know there's disclosure on that now to would be buyers - at the very least it's common knowledge among informed hobbyists. I haven't looked for it myself, and it's likely in the fine print, but he's not out here denying it, so while I don't like the practice personally, at least he's being forthright about it.

With the TFO issue, I asked if specimens were drop shipped and I didn't get a clear answer. Now unless whomever answered my email, mistook "drop ship" for "drop-in", they skirted the question rather completely.

Nobody signed their name to the email either. That never bodes well when a business entity doesn't have a human with a name attached to it.

Owners names aren't on the website, nobody signs their name to an email - questions aren't answered either directly and possibly not 100% truthfully - since I haven't had a clear answer either way...

I do have another question for you though, Eric. You state emphatically that you don't allow "jobbers". Now by that I am going to assume that you mean people hired to peruse the wholesalers for premium items for third parties. How is it then, that TFO can come in to "pick their own fish" as you stated - doesn't that make them "jobbers" too?

I know that just about every wholesaler allows their retail customers to enter to select livestock - but by that definition, anybody who shows up to pick stuff is a "jobber" or a "cherry picker".

The only way *anybody* (not just SDC - even my own suppliers have their local customers come in to select stuff) could claim they don't have any cherry picking at all, would be if ONLY their warehouse staff were allowed to select livestock to fill orders. Honestly I don't know of any wholesale outfit that doesn't allow their customers in - so we can tar everybody with the same brush on that one - I find it funny that some (and not just SDC either - I'm not singling out anybody - making a blanket observation) that a few places boast about no cherry picking - but still they let customers come in to - cherry pick Ironic, is it not?

I guess I'll sit tight to see if the mysterious folks at TFO answer my email.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

Actually I recently tried a new wholesaler Eric and my loss rate went down a ton. I was losing 25% in the last 4 SDC shipments within 2 days. I have lost only 1 fish on this one so far after 4 days and he was a DOA chromis......Historically SDC shipments were much better then my recent ones, so I don't know whats up, but I had visible parasites on all may last 4 shipments.

Edit: Make that 34% on my last order Eric, most were dead when you bagged em as they never ate and had pests.

 

[JennM]

Actually I recently tried a new wholesaler Eric and my loss rate went down a ton. I was losing 25% in the last 4 SDC shipments within 2 days. I have lost only 1 fish on this one so far after 4 days and he was a DOA chromis......Historically SDC shipments were much better then my recent ones, so I don't know whats up, but I had visible parasites on all may last 4 shipments.

Edit: Make that 34% on my last order Eric, most were dead when you bagged em as they never ate and had pests.

I'm not a moderator and I don't play one on TV but even I can see that's likely an issue best dealt with in private between you and your shipper. And perhaps my saying so is out of line, and if so I'll apologize in advance.

Jenn

 

[sdcfish]

Spawner was the one who suggested that you'd made the claim you didn't deal with drop shippers or etailers

I have never said we don't drop-ship.

so please don't put words in my mouth

You posted....,"when Eric was OUSTED as a dropshipper"...then you said, "I had denied it".

We have seen what happens when wholesalers are proprietors of etail businesses and it's not a direction we would want to mess with-

I wrote that and it did mean that we would never own or share ownership in retail or etail.

Yes...we don't allow "Jobbers". By our definition....jobbers are companies that sell to retail stores. They come here and pick only the certain items they can either get cheaper from us, or can't get from other sources. they would buy from multiple wholesalers in any single day. They were not abiding by our common rules which is to share the best product or all the product ...so we stopped all Jobbers and improved our service to our customers.

It's not the same when we have other local walk-ins buying livestock from us....and yes, we can and do monitor every local walk-in order to make sure we are not "cherry picked". We put items back into their tanks if a customer had overstepped their bounds. We have also tried to address the cherry pickers by raising our local minimum daily purchase to $400.00 per day. That took care of any of the locals just looking for a few nice items.

SWSaltwater,

I looked over your last 4 invoice since Jan 1 2007, and you had one invoice with a doa claim. I find it methodical that your purchases are pretty much the same items...gobies, blennys, bangai cardinals, diamond gobys, six line wrasse, blue tangs...etc....same pretty much on every order, plus the dry goods which is nice.

I will discuss with your rep if he had been discussing any problems with your last three shipments, but it doesn't seem so. I would like you to discuss your problems with our husbandry manager to try and solve any issues you had....because your daa's seem super high. I also noticed that you have come and purchased your livestock in person. I would like to know if you had seen many fish with any illness's...or what you though in general of our overall quality. Your comments and business are valued as I have mentioned to you privately before.

Thanks and regards....

 

[sdcfish]

Thanks Jenn.....it's always amazing to think a customer would accuse us of bagging a dead fish!

I don't mind the comments though.....I think it's good to know how we can improve....and we are always trying.

I just hope we haven't lost a customer.

Best regards...

 

[JennM]

Thanks Jenn.....it's always amazing to think a customer would accuse us of bagging a dead fish!

I don't mind the comments though.....I think it's good to know how we can improve....and we are always trying.

I just hope we haven't lost a customer.

Best regards...

Well many years ago when I had just started working in the industry, I was in on a pooled order with an etailer. I can tell you without any doubt, that the stinking, decomposing corpse that I received from the drop-shipper (and here I was thinking that they had lovingly cared for their critters in their own system where the telecenter was *g*)... was absolutely and positively DEAD long before it was ever boxed up and sent to my group. I had other items in the order too - and at the end of it all I paid $41 for my share of the shipping and my organisms, and all that lived was a yellow wrasse I could have bought locally for $20. I got a credit for the 3 other dead things I got - but I'd have to pay shipping again to claim the credit. No thanks - the sum total of all that I bought could have been bought locally for maybe a few dollars more than what I paid as part of my pooled order. I wasn't going to pay another $30 or so for shipping - nobody else wanted to re-order either.

So yes - some entities (and drop-shippers) have been known to send something on its last breath. Probably an isolated incident - but it happened to several of us on that order - and it wasn't delayed in transit.

And it was a long time ago - and the entity I purchased from was bought out by a bigger fish

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Eric,

You were the one who said you were "busted" (and that's the exact word you used). You also said, "Not exactly a happy moment over here." It's on page 11 of this thread. That's when everybody jumped on the question bandwagon, myself included.

And yep I mentioned you being "outed" - since you admitted you were busted, there's nothing untoward about that. Prior to this thread I don't recall you ever mentioning that you were involved in drop ship services at all - but then again I could have missed it. It just seemed initially, at least, that you were reluctant to disclose that - once you were "outed", you were "busted"!

If it's no biggie and all your clients are fine with it, what's the problem? You're awfully defensive today. Long before I made the "outed" comment, I asked which scenario it was, because initially you said that the mistake with the acclimation sheets happened "in the back" and then you went on to say that it's all out in the open, no curtains or whatnot. I pointed out the contradiction then, but it went unanswered. I also made mention that when the local wholesaler here was doing their own drop ship direct to hobbyist business, people were unaware of it til that was (cough) "outed" on this forum (search for subject line "New Atlanta Etailer" - Mitch opened the can of worms that one back in '05 about this time of year. Seems that shortly after that, Aquarium Stuffers went buh-bye. In fact it went away within a few weeks of the thread being posted.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

I did not mean literally dead in the bag and know SDC is not underhanded like that nor is any wholesaler IMO, but with the parasites and the fish not eating it was pretty much doomed when it was bagged. It was moving but thats about it.....I am sure Eric has a lot of rotation in livestock pickers as I see em working at different places when I go out there.......

I will go on record as saying SDC has had the best quality "overall" in the year or so I have been buying. Most my shipmets for fish came from them in the last year. The last 4 shipmets I had issues with. That might be a result on their end, my end, or overall quality of livestock coming from the wild. All I see right now is the livestock I just got has no issues. I started a new medication regime today to make sure they stay that way.

 

[swsaltwater]

So yes - some entities (and drop-shippers) have been known to send something on its last breath. Probably an isolated incident - but it happened to several of us on that order - and it wasn't delayed in transit.

And it was a long time ago - and the entity I purchased from was bought out by a bigger fish

Jenn

I ordered a jawfish from Flying Fish about 6-8 years back and it came in with no head, the head was floating in the bag next to the body. It was pretty decayed as well. I think they put a dead fish in the order so you would buy again to get a replacement cause out of the 15 things I ordered it was the only DOA and they would not refund the money for it. There is no doubt that this is done by some in the industry, but no way SDC does it since they usually give some credits on DOA's.

 

[sdcfish]

The deteriated fish in a bag had been a mystery to me for many years.....UNTIL.....I figured out that if you have non-sterilized water, a dead fish can nearly vanish within a very short time. When we first started in the business....I saw this happen many times.

It wasn't until we started using U.V sterilization on our packing water, did we make a drastic change in seeing deteriorating fish.....and that was the absolute solution to lowering bacteria counts in the shipping bag, where fish can literally be eaten in hours after death. Now we use ozone on our systems, but still have 100% UV sterilized water going to the packing tables.

Thanks SW for the nice post....the offer to assist you in husbandry while you start up your new procedures is still on the table of'course.

Best regards...

Eric

PS Jenn...sorry for being so touchy! Had a talk with myself earlier and I feel much better now.

 

[RichardS]

Eric

I don't even view livestock etailers as competitors as they have had no affect on me. So I have no problem with wholesalers drop shipping or selling to etailers as long as they are treating all the customers equally in terms of the quality of the livestock they are sending out. However, from my 2 orders from you I recieved nothing but junk. The first order was so bad it prompted an young employee of mine to email you about the quality of the stock. You replied to him cordially, apologizing and saying it was a hectic week. The second order was equally bad and the response I got from the rep, James I think, was "Well you should have known better than to order on a wednesday".

The only reason I ordered a second time from your company was that a friend of mine had used you for many, many years and he was pretty shocked by how bad the first order was. So from my experience you are not treating all of your customers equally.

This was back in 04 so maybe you have fired that a$$hole James and maybe you are no longer dumping the crap on unsuspecting LFS that try to do business with you. I can only go off of my experience though.

 

[sdcfish]

Richard,

Thanks for your views on the drop ship programs, and you should know that absolutely we make sure everyone is on the same playing field. If anything, we would give a retailer the advantage for sure.

Sorry to hear about your experience with James and the poor arrival on two shipments....it is upsetting of'course, but keeps me pushing hard to stay on top of things and investigate deeper.

I wish I could be a fly on the wall sometimes and hear what our reps tell customers.....comments like "serves you right for ordering on a Wednesday"....I totally believe he said that, and it just blows me away. There is good stock available any day of the week, you just need to know what to order.

We have made some great strides to improve that part of the customer service by having an over-all rep call every customer when their orders are being packed, to let them know about any missing items, and give options for substitutions. This has greatly increased our fill rates and improved our customer service.

Bottom line is that we are dealing with livestock and it's never going to be perfect....but I still stand by our procedures, variety and quality as being the best in the business.

Best regards...

 

[swsaltwater]

I just got around to looking up the AMDA. below are the goals of the place Dr Fosters wants to destroy......Man we should all join Dr F&S's cause, protect the coral reefs that feed our hobby, rubbish.......Raise public awareness to stop poachers and countries that destroy reefs (HAITI), no let's let them ruin the ocean....I am shocked he would be against these goal, am I missing something here?


AMDA Goals:

Establish a network of retail stores who conduct business by AMDA Standards of Practice;

Raise public awareness of the industry¹s role in marine conservation;

Provide up-to-date information on proper animal husbandry;

Ensure the health and quality of marinelife through responsible handling and husbandry practices;

Encourage responsible husbandry through education and training;

Support supply of captive bred marine organisms as an alternate source of marinelife for aquariums.

 

[reefseller]

The goals of the AMDA have long been abanded by the current president. His actions have ailenated many other than F&S including the rest of the AMDA BOD.

 

[JennM]

I have not been an AMDA member, but if my memory serves, DF&S' membership application was declined a few years ago.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

If AMDA is toothless, why is it a big deal if anyone wants to replace it?

 

[JennM]

It's not - except to Race - he was the one that mentioned that his cannon is aimed at AMDA.

Jenn

 

[JeremyR]

Reading that kind of self-promotion puts me in a dilemma.. to throw up, or laugh hysterically at how foolish it reads? I dunno.

 

[Anonymous]

It's not - except to Race - he was the one that mentioned that his cannon is aimed at AMDA.

Jenn

AMDA is not toothless?

 

[JennM]

No - it's not a big deal. You asked what the big deal is, if AMDA is toothless - I said it's not - as in not a big deal. Apparently it's a big deal to Race, though.

Jenn