A
Anonymous
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:lol: AMDA itself isn't under Race's fire, a few select vocal members are 
Or at least that is my take having had front row seats to all this
Or at least that is my take having had front row seats to all this 
Here we have a person that claims to lose $300,000 last year just on shipping costs. So this means he sells how much each year, multiple milllions maybe with all animal lines combined, maybe a few million or so in his "fish and coral cartel". Doing this much business, what is his motive for taking time to search out this forum and sit there wasting his time putting this stuff on a forum that he claims to have no interest whatsoever in the practices of those reading and frequenting this forum? It makes no sense at all. And, he comes on here and tells everyone to watch out for him, that he is manipulating the industry by meeting with manufacturers and setting prices (his own words voiced here), and we had all better write him into our business plans and watch out for his retail presence soon. All this and his claim that he does all this for his personal amusement, not for any financial gain at all.
Most of us will read his words and make our conclusion as to their validity and worth to us as individual business people. The vast majority I would guess would brush it off thinking these are just rants and have no effect on our businesses. Well, maybe they don't and maybe they do. I'm simply posing the proposition that his actions may have an impact on this industry.
Some reasons for my thinking:
1. Market Presence & Selection of Products
F & S offers a line of supplies for most pets with easy to use web sites and catalogs that reach likely millions--I get them and have never bought anything from them, I have seen in my area TV ads for F & S, pick up most hobby mags or go on most reef related BB and they are advertisers and sponsors (overall point being they do have a huge presence in the face of many hobbyists, not all but certainly many more than most LFSs). If you look on their web sites you find a huge variety of products dry and live, in many instances most stores would be hard pressed to have such a selection.
2. Race uses you!
Yes, he said it here, you get folks into the hobby and he needs us all for that and then via his marketing abilities, selection of goods at relatively low prices (and in some instances significantly lower prices than what many small stores can afford--I know there are some items he sells that I can not quite get wholesale at what he charges retail), and customer service he takes them away, at least to some extent. Not a day goes by that I don't have customers come in that buy from F & S for most of their dry goods and even some livestock--how many others in my area buy from them that I never see at all. The vast vast majority of them are very happy with F & S, they come in to prowse and maybe pick up a fish or coral or something they don't want to wait for a day or two to get by delivery and because they personally still like to see a real store now and then. Race knows that he needs us all to some extent, he knows that we have to get the folks started in the hobby and keep their interest while he sucks the cash from their pockets and leaves them cash poor by the time they decide to stroll in for amusement from time to time.
3. Race is and will continue seeking to control supply
From pressuring manufacturers to alter pricing, to pressuring livetsock wholesalers about who and what they might sell. Look, wholesalers, retailers, anyone in this business at some point must sell there stock to stay in business--to a major degree it is a perishable commodity we deal in. Race comes in as a volume buyer, as a wholesaler do you turn him down--business reality in most cases says no way. You play ball---(do dropshipping--hold a section for his stuff--etc.), get the regular paycheck, and don't worry how this move might affect the industry as a whole. As they say, show me the money baby, do you deal with the devil--you bet when he pays big time and the average LFS struggles to keep up and pay their bills. How many of your suppliers drop ship or have a section held for F & S? You be surprised if you went there and checked--its growing.
4. He is Changing Hobbyist Expectations
Do you offer a 30 day guarantee on your corals? How about 14 days on fish? Maybe you replace an entire tank when a heater malfunctions?? How about replace an item a customer says died a week ago and does not bring in the dead animal?? Huh, well do you?? NO, you bet you don't! Well, my friend--guess what, all these and more are true facts that F & S do daily for their customers. Know what this is designed to do? Take the fear of buying online away from anyone that ever deals with them and locks in customers for a long time. No, I not saying they are all perfect, but with this type of line up they are doing far more than any LFS i know of. You say but there is nothing that will replace that face to face time I spend for hours educating my clients. Sure, and you have some loyal customers. But, my point here is that this is very invasive and if you think many of your customers do not also buy online you may be in denial and if F & S gets them hooked it may change their buying patterns with you. I have seen it first hand--heck some of them bring in the styro boxes with F & S printed on the side and I'm standing there talking for an hour to them about XYZ for their tank and then maybe they buy something from me and off they go to shop online for a better price or to see a wider selection or whatever--maybe because it is just cool to shop online. And no I'm not whining that I'll have to close my doors tomorrow because of it, simply saying it is something that is happening slowly. Certainly there are already the Petcos and Petsmarts, etc. that are challanges to the average LFS, but their owners don't come on here and rub our noses in it that I know of.
Everything he does is legal, I assume, and it is business after all. I guess I lament that maybe we are on the verge of witnessing the Walmartization of our industry--steamrolling us. I recall years ago when you wanted to rent a video you went to the local mom and pop video rental shop. Then Blockbuster and Hollywood video came on the scene and guess what--the vast majority of the mom and pops went under, at first folks said I like mom and pop and i'll never stop shopping their but lets just check out that fancy new place, well over time mom and pop just seemed old fashion and so we all went to the new places becasue they had so much more and then one day I noticed mom and pop were gone----are we next??
Aww, what the heck am I worried about, I do this just for the fun of it anyway.
Most of us will read his words and make our conclusion as to their validity and worth to us as individual business people. The vast majority I would guess would brush it off thinking these are just rants and have no effect on our businesses. Well, maybe they don't and maybe they do. I'm simply posing the proposition that his actions may have an impact on this industry.
Some reasons for my thinking:
1. Market Presence & Selection of Products
F & S offers a line of supplies for most pets with easy to use web sites and catalogs that reach likely millions--I get them and have never bought anything from them, I have seen in my area TV ads for F & S, pick up most hobby mags or go on most reef related BB and they are advertisers and sponsors (overall point being they do have a huge presence in the face of many hobbyists, not all but certainly many more than most LFSs). If you look on their web sites you find a huge variety of products dry and live, in many instances most stores would be hard pressed to have such a selection.
2. Race uses you!
Yes, he said it here, you get folks into the hobby and he needs us all for that and then via his marketing abilities, selection of goods at relatively low prices (and in some instances significantly lower prices than what many small stores can afford--I know there are some items he sells that I can not quite get wholesale at what he charges retail), and customer service he takes them away, at least to some extent. Not a day goes by that I don't have customers come in that buy from F & S for most of their dry goods and even some livestock--how many others in my area buy from them that I never see at all. The vast vast majority of them are very happy with F & S, they come in to prowse and maybe pick up a fish or coral or something they don't want to wait for a day or two to get by delivery and because they personally still like to see a real store now and then. Race knows that he needs us all to some extent, he knows that we have to get the folks started in the hobby and keep their interest while he sucks the cash from their pockets and leaves them cash poor by the time they decide to stroll in for amusement from time to time.
3. Race is and will continue seeking to control supply
From pressuring manufacturers to alter pricing, to pressuring livetsock wholesalers about who and what they might sell. Look, wholesalers, retailers, anyone in this business at some point must sell there stock to stay in business--to a major degree it is a perishable commodity we deal in. Race comes in as a volume buyer, as a wholesaler do you turn him down--business reality in most cases says no way. You play ball---(do dropshipping--hold a section for his stuff--etc.), get the regular paycheck, and don't worry how this move might affect the industry as a whole. As they say, show me the money baby, do you deal with the devil--you bet when he pays big time and the average LFS struggles to keep up and pay their bills. How many of your suppliers drop ship or have a section held for F & S? You be surprised if you went there and checked--its growing.
4. He is Changing Hobbyist Expectations
Do you offer a 30 day guarantee on your corals? How about 14 days on fish? Maybe you replace an entire tank when a heater malfunctions?? How about replace an item a customer says died a week ago and does not bring in the dead animal?? Huh, well do you?? NO, you bet you don't! Well, my friend--guess what, all these and more are true facts that F & S do daily for their customers. Know what this is designed to do? Take the fear of buying online away from anyone that ever deals with them and locks in customers for a long time. No, I not saying they are all perfect, but with this type of line up they are doing far more than any LFS i know of. You say but there is nothing that will replace that face to face time I spend for hours educating my clients. Sure, and you have some loyal customers. But, my point here is that this is very invasive and if you think many of your customers do not also buy online you may be in denial and if F & S gets them hooked it may change their buying patterns with you. I have seen it first hand--heck some of them bring in the styro boxes with F & S printed on the side and I'm standing there talking for an hour to them about XYZ for their tank and then maybe they buy something from me and off they go to shop online for a better price or to see a wider selection or whatever--maybe because it is just cool to shop online. And no I'm not whining that I'll have to close my doors tomorrow because of it, simply saying it is something that is happening slowly. Certainly there are already the Petcos and Petsmarts, etc. that are challanges to the average LFS, but their owners don't come on here and rub our noses in it that I know of.
Everything he does is legal, I assume, and it is business after all. I guess I lament that maybe we are on the verge of witnessing the Walmartization of our industry--steamrolling us. I recall years ago when you wanted to rent a video you went to the local mom and pop video rental shop. Then Blockbuster and Hollywood video came on the scene and guess what--the vast majority of the mom and pops went under, at first folks said I like mom and pop and i'll never stop shopping their but lets just check out that fancy new place, well over time mom and pop just seemed old fashion and so we all went to the new places becasue they had so much more and then one day I noticed mom and pop were gone----are we next??
Aww, what the heck am I worried about, I do this just for the fun of it anyway.
Anything longer then a 24 hour Guarantee causes the customer to care less for the wellbeing of the new animal.
Customers carefully acclimating , studying compatibility charts.......thats all old style.
"heck its guaranteed What do I care if it dies".
I dont think the animals would vote for such a no fault policy.
( in my former life)I used to supply flowers to the big chains.
They would turn around and sell the bedding plants for less then we charged them. They also would not water the plants and many would die.
I guess thats what this industry is headed for.
Its just that flowers dont scream like nemos do when a trigger is eating their insides out or when the nitrite is burning their gills.
Animal life should not be a disposable , it also should not be used as a weapon nor should it be used as a way to leverage or augment dry good sales.
This is a two edge sword :
Using the reefs wildlife as some sort of loss leader , to promote dry good sales.
Then also using the Islands natives to supply broodstock in American coral farms, replacing the islanders income by growing corals in America instead of at the source, supporting the people who steward the reefs .
Customers carefully acclimating , studying compatibility charts.......thats all old style.
"heck its guaranteed What do I care if it dies".
I dont think the animals would vote for such a no fault policy.
( in my former life)I used to supply flowers to the big chains.
They would turn around and sell the bedding plants for less then we charged them. They also would not water the plants and many would die.
I guess thats what this industry is headed for.
Its just that flowers dont scream like nemos do when a trigger is eating their insides out or when the nitrite is burning their gills.
Animal life should not be a disposable , it also should not be used as a weapon nor should it be used as a way to leverage or augment dry good sales.
This is a two edge sword :
Using the reefs wildlife as some sort of loss leader , to promote dry good sales.
Then also using the Islands natives to supply broodstock in American coral farms, replacing the islanders income by growing corals in America instead of at the source, supporting the people who steward the reefs .
I would think that is all the LFS got together and sent a message to manufacturers that sell to Dr F&S, marine depot, etc. we could do some good. It would take a lot if not all of us but I am sure as a collective we sell more then he does of any of those products. I could care less if they keep his discounts as long as we get the same prices......only way to fight a giant company is with a union, thats probably why he hates teh AMDA.
How are you guys coming to the conclusion that DF&S or other etailers are killing the LFS? I just don't see them having that affect. I actually refer my customers to etailers for things I don't want to mess with. It's beyond me why hobbyist's get the idea that they need 250 astrea snails and a bazillion hermit crabs to keep their 75 gallon tank clean. When they do I mention this thing called water quality and then send them to go to somewhere like reeftopia if they still want to go that route. Some of them do but I don't lose their business for everything else. Same goes for drygoods that I can't be competitive on. They go buy that one thing, thank me for saving them money and then come back the next week and spend their money with me. I have been a hobbyist alot longer than a store owner so I know hobbyist have always shopped around. Not too many give 100% of their business to one shop.
My saltwater sales aren't near what I would like them to be but it has more to do with the fact that in my market we have averaged a new shop every 4 months for the past 3 years. That's counting two of them twice since they opened then went under then were reopened by an new owner. Still I think my sw sales would be double to triple what they are if I had chosen to open my shop inside the city rather than making the majority my customers drive 25 minutes outside the city and past 4 other shops just to shop with me. To be honest, I'm surprised so many of them do just that. That is a misjudgement on my part as to how fast my area was growing. Every store that I have seen go under has their own decisions to blame. Some of their mistakes were so obvious I am surprised they didn't see them.
In my case, we are getting by and profitable but not near what I would be happy with. When my lease is up I have to decide either to stick it out a little longer and wait for my area's population to grow more or pack up and move to the city or just pack up and move on to something else. Whatever I decide it won't have anything to do with Race or any other etailer.
My saltwater sales aren't near what I would like them to be but it has more to do with the fact that in my market we have averaged a new shop every 4 months for the past 3 years. That's counting two of them twice since they opened then went under then were reopened by an new owner. Still I think my sw sales would be double to triple what they are if I had chosen to open my shop inside the city rather than making the majority my customers drive 25 minutes outside the city and past 4 other shops just to shop with me. To be honest, I'm surprised so many of them do just that. That is a misjudgement on my part as to how fast my area was growing. Every store that I have seen go under has their own decisions to blame. Some of their mistakes were so obvious I am surprised they didn't see them.
In my case, we are getting by and profitable but not near what I would be happy with. When my lease is up I have to decide either to stick it out a little longer and wait for my area's population to grow more or pack up and move to the city or just pack up and move on to something else. Whatever I decide it won't have anything to do with Race or any other etailer.
Piero":vgpf1y6h said:
Nope, not the first time - search for Aquaticvet1 as a user name and you'll find last year's postings. This is deja-vu all over again
Kalk has a point - about live animals augmenting dry goods sales - but that's exactly why the big box retailers have live fish, to offset a few profits, and make it a convenience to the retail shopper who's there buying dog food and cat toys, and hey, let's get a fish tank too...
Rudy makes some very valid points too. Lots of food for thought.
Jenn
swsaltwater":116n12py said:
To my knowledge AMDA never did such a thing, but I think the notion was discussed.
So as small retailers, what do we do? Stop carrying every product that's sold by an etailer unless they play nice with us? I doubt that's going to happen - I'd have to eliminate most of what I sell then... leaving what for consumers?
Pricing of dry goods on an even keel would be nice - I've had people ask me why not buy from this etailer or that etailer if they are selling for less than what my distributor charges me - that's just great then I'd have 20 orders coming fro all over and what does one do with a warranty issue? No - that's just not practical in the big picture.
Yes, it would boil down to a co-operative effort on the part of the small timers, but that would require organizing and doing something. To date I haven't seen any of the current organizations do this, nor have I seen any new groups come about to try.
Any volunteers?
Race is playing just as much on our own lack of cohesiveness as he is on the rest of the issues mentioned.
Jenn
vitz":nt48vbwy said:
I think all LFS's should cut off Quality Marine. I know I did once I found out that they were F&S owned. They should be up front with their LFS customers as to who they are IMO. Obviously they hide it cause they know what would happen to their sales if everyone knew. By the way Race was talking he might own more of em but who can be sure, I suspect Carib Sea as being E-Tropicals and never buy from them (high prices anyway IMO). I use an independent diver in florida and buy direct. All you have to do to find out who is who is talk to another wholesaler on 104th. They will tell who every one is online except themselves......I suspect Race wants to kill the wholesale competition and force LFS's to buy from him. That was one reason I used SDC for all my mainstream fish, as no one could tie them to a etailer. Reading this thread about TFO was the first wind I got of any dropship etail connection. If I can not find more wholesalers with no etail ties I will have to simply close shop or make my own wholesale shop here and order direct.
This type of misinformation has to stop. I do not and have never had any financial interest in Quality Marine or any other livestock wholesaler. I buy fish and corals from multiple suppliers and distributors within the United States as well as importing from abroad.
If you are attempting to boycott my suppliers, then you will need to include most major and minor livestock suppliers in the US.
You are free to discuss my business practices, but I will not tolerate these types of outright lies and misinformation!
Race
If you are attempting to boycott my suppliers, then you will need to include most major and minor livestock suppliers in the US.
You are free to discuss my business practices, but I will not tolerate these types of outright lies and misinformation!
Race
As you shouldn't. If some one is miss representing your business, that's wrong IMO.
Just wonderring how these conclusions came about. Did you say something that may have lead people to believe something else Race? You know, the "read between the lines" kinda posts?
like that Ones like that leave the door open for speculation by design, and I'm sure you know this
Just wonderring how these conclusions came about. Did you say something that may have lead people to believe something else Race? You know, the "read between the lines" kinda posts?
like that
Ones like that leave the door open for speculation by design, and I'm sure you know this Race":m5b66i41 said:
Now you say you do not have stock in a wholesaler? This above quote seems to contradict that in a braggadocios way. The general consenses by every dealer on 104th I talk to on my monthly trips is Quality (AKA Flying Fish Express) was bought out, or at least a large stake in it by live aquaria. I did not hear it from one, but most other wholesalers on 104th. Also how I found out PAF was reefer madness. They don't deny that at least. If this info is not correct then I apologize to Quality for believing it, but I do not know why Quality would not do something to stop the rumors that seem to be widely accepted on 104th. I do however find it odd that when Quality has a fairly rare or exclusive item I always see it on live aquaria the same week..............There has to be at least a drop ship tie IMO, so thats enough for me to stop doing business with them. After reading your claims on being the aquatic santa selling stuff for a loss I will go out of my way to not do business with those who do business with you.
You have some major erroneous information!
The information that you received is incorrect. Flying Fish Express was owned and operated by a separate wholesaler and was NEVER affiliated with Quality Marine. We were approached by this wholesaler in late 2002 to sell off this sector of the business. Drs. Foster & Smith purchased Flying Fish Express in 2003 and merged it into LiveAquaria.com. LiveAquaria.com has for many years utilized Ocean 2 Ocean/Quality Marine as well as many other wholesalers to acquire livestock for our customers.
I hope this makes things clear and I would suggest you get your facts straight before posting erroneous content.
Race
The information that you received is incorrect. Flying Fish Express was owned and operated by a separate wholesaler and was NEVER affiliated with Quality Marine. We were approached by this wholesaler in late 2002 to sell off this sector of the business. Drs. Foster & Smith purchased Flying Fish Express in 2003 and merged it into LiveAquaria.com. LiveAquaria.com has for many years utilized Ocean 2 Ocean/Quality Marine as well as many other wholesalers to acquire livestock for our customers.
I hope this makes things clear and I would suggest you get your facts straight before posting erroneous content.
Race
I normally do not post in this type of thread because emotions are running high ( I do enjoy reading it though). But when swsaltwater posts that Reefer Maddness is part of PAF I just have to post.
Reefer Maddness has nothing to do with PAF other than the fact that they do buy a small amount of product from PAF. Very little of what I see on their website comes from PAF. PAF has no stake at all in Reefer Maddness. I would guess that over 90% of their product is purchased elsewhere.
It is true that some of my suppliers sell to Reefer Maddness, I can not nor do I try to control who my suppliers sell to. As an overseas supplier myself I sell to many buyers who are compitition to each other. I do not pursue exclusives with anyone.
I would think that it would not be too hard to find out that PAF does not own Reefer Maddness by looking at state corporate filings, I think that they are public record. That would be much better than word of mouth from other wholesalers on 104th.
Dave
Reefer Maddness has nothing to do with PAF other than the fact that they do buy a small amount of product from PAF. Very little of what I see on their website comes from PAF. PAF has no stake at all in Reefer Maddness. I would guess that over 90% of their product is purchased elsewhere.
It is true that some of my suppliers sell to Reefer Maddness, I can not nor do I try to control who my suppliers sell to. As an overseas supplier myself I sell to many buyers who are compitition to each other. I do not pursue exclusives with anyone.
I would think that it would not be too hard to find out that PAF does not own Reefer Maddness by looking at state corporate filings, I think that they are public record. That would be much better than word of mouth from other wholesalers on 104th.
Dave
a tranship link or ownership is enough for me to write em off weather you own em or not. In fact why don't you disclose all those you deal with so I can write them off as well.........If they know you "sell at a loss" as the aquatic santa it's their own stupidity to sell to you knowing it will hurt their other customers. Any wholesalers, manufacturers or distributors that would knowingly sell to someone with aspirations of selling at a loss to undermine and ruin the industry is not too bright.
I don't mind wholesalers owning or dealing with etailers as long as those etailers sell for fair market price. This is not what is happening though.
I don't mind wholesalers owning or dealing with etailers as long as those etailers sell for fair market price. This is not what is happening though.
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