Beaslbob! Now's Your Chance to show your stuff!

[Anonymous]

When I started out in reef keepeing I actually did a similar setup to your preachings.

I had a 46Bow with a Ecosystem40 (HOB Fuge). I had caluerpa growing in there with Cyano.

The tank did ok for about 4 months then the algae started. I added a Skimmer and it went away.

Another reasson my current tank probably has hair algae from the days of the 46.

 

[Bucktronix]

im curious bob, in your vast experience, pictured below you can see i have a lot of macro algae growing in my fuge. why is it my tank also has hair algae growing in it? i run no skimmer and i use ro/di water, there is one kole tang that hardly ever gets fed, why am i growing filimtanious algae. doesn’t your theory cover the macro out competes the micro?

 

[Bucktronix]

When I started out in reef keepeing I actually did a similar setup to your preachings.

I had a 46Bow with a Ecosystem40 (HOB Fuge). I had caluerpa growing in there with Cyano.

The tank did ok for about 4 months then the algae started. I added a Skimmer and it went away.

your cyno had nothing to do with your macros, you didnt have enough circulation in your fuge.

 

[Anonymous]

But with litle to no maintenance and added sufficient plant life you simply don't get those nuisance algaes.

You seem to keep forgetting those annoying Cyanobacter blooms you still get. Selective memory once again....

What cyano blooms? I do advise that when (if) you get a cyano bloom it is a sign that nitrates have lowered and by harventing macros the cyano goes away. I did get some some cyano a few months ago. That went away with that method. And I do get say a 1"x1" spot of cyano every month or two. Which goes away in a day when I harvest some macros.

But red cyano over a large portion of the tank has never happened.

 

[Anonymous]

im curious bob, in your vast experience, pictured below you can see i have a lot of macro algae growing in my fuge. why is it my tank also has hair algae growing in it? i run no skimmer and i use ro/di water, there is one kole tang that hardly ever gets fed, why am i growing filimtanious algae. doesn’t your theory cover the macro out competes the micro?
...

If you apply my experience you should come up with the answer all on your own.

Obviously you don't throw in a single twig of plant life and expect a 10,000g aquarium to be balanced out.

As a hint check out this thread as a fw reference. the same thing happens in salt/reef. http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=60020

Now look at the post on bean's system at the start of this thread. No hair algae in that tank.

 

[Anonymous]

I hate to pic bobs post apart, but I see no other way to address all his points.

And I can post tank running for 1 1/2 years with excellent sps growth using plant life but with ro/di and water changes.

Water changes - Against your method

any method that takes care of the plant life is "my" method. Not upsetting every week with a water change is secondary to that.

That seems so bogus. You keep changing your 'method' depending on the argument. On minute its Plants, oysters, no additive, no water change, tap water, no skimmer, the next its just plant life.
You cant have it both ways.

And post problems tanks are having with no added plant life. LIke rob's

Algae happen due to MY lack of maintenance not because of NO plants. Now that I am blasting the LR and do weekly water changes the algae is almost gone!

This is exactly my main point. It is your attempt to keep a plant lifeless "sterile" system that is causing your problems.

Sterile? There is a huge difference between exporting rotting detritus and and a sterile system.

The system is telling you it needs plant life. And you are refusing to listen.

That is not what the system is saying. If anything it is saying there are excess nutrients that need to be exported.

Just as the green water system posted on this forum. But with litle to no maintenance and added sufficient plant life you simply don't get those nuisance algaes.

Care to explain all the systems running refugiums that have nuisance algae's? You keep taking single examples and generalizing from them, which is a bad idea. Your system, based on the pic in this thread, looks like it has nuisance algae's and is eutrophic.

Just as in beanpole's system. Any closed system with a bioload, carbon dioxide, and light is going to produce plant life. Regardless of your efforts to prevent that. The sooner you embrace that fact and have plant life you like, the sooner you furstrations will end.

You are totally ignoring the fact that many people keep tanks with no planted refugium and have no nuisance algaes.

WHERE ARE THE PICS OF A TANK THAT HAS RUN FOR OVER 5 YEARS WITH NO SKIMMING AND NO WATER CHANGES AND NO RO/DI? Not partial of some ro and some water changes and some skimming.

So a year and a half is not long enough, it has to be 5 years. then 10 years. then 20.

Yes. Thats how it works. At a year and a half, your tank looks unhealthy (which is something you seem to be missing).
Many tanks do fine for 2-5 years then there are problems.

Meanwhile at 3 months a tank is totally green. Your system has algae return after three months of a total tear down. Cal's Fw has no algae and has not even had the glass scraped after 6 months.

And there are many other examples showing the exact opposite. You seem to glom onto situations that support your ideas (even though on closer inspection they don't) and ignore everything else. A bad way to come to conclusions.

My fw has been running for 4 years.

That is so irrelevant that I cant even imagine why you would use it as support.

Newbies are constantly posting, algae problems, parameter problems, ph drops, fish dieing, etc etc. Even though they are doing the water changes, filtration, circulation and everything else.

And other noobies aren't. And still others are posting the same problems even with planted refugiums.

As I said, I'll let the newbies reading this thread decide if establishing a balance between animal and plant life as the first thing sounds like a good idea. After all it is the way the earth is setup including all aquatic systems even reefs.

You still think that? You still think that plants recycle all the nutrients on the planet? What about the abyssal plains? What about the blackwater events in Flordia? You still think that there is an abundance of macros or nuisance algae on wild reefs?

Let the newbies look at the picture of you system and then decide if that is what they want. And I think it is strange that you are promoting a way of reefing that you have never actually done yourself.

And again, no one is really arguing against setting up a 'fuge - its the rest of your ideas that become problematic.

 

[Anonymous]

What cyano blooms? I do advise that when (if) you get a cyano bloom it is a sign that nitrates have lowered and by harventing macros the cyano goes away. I did get some some cyano a few months ago. That went away with that method. And I do get say a 1"x1" spot of cyano every month or two. Which goes away in a day when I harvest some macros.

But red cyano over a large portion of the tank has never happened.

Uh, bob cyano is fueled by high nitrates and Phosphates in the tank, not by a lack of them..exerpted from article http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/algaecontro1/index.htm

Phosphates (PO 4 ), DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds), and nitrates (NO 3 ) are primary nutrient food sources for red and other slime algae.
Phosphates (PO 4 ) are commonly introduced into aquariums by means of using unfiltered fresh tap water, and through many aquarium products that may contain higher than normal concentrations of this element, such as sea salt mixes, activated carbon, KH buffers, foods, and many other sources.

 

[Bucktronix]

i don't have a 10,000 gallon tank, i have a 90. also thats not a stick in there thats a 5 gallon pail full of mixed caulerpa.

 

[Anonymous]

And I do get say a 1"x1" spot of cyano every month or two. Which goes away in a day when I harvest some macros.

Those are the cyano blooms I expected you to have and the ones I was referring to...

So, now you're saying macro algae causes Cyanobacter blooms and removing macro algae eliminates the Cyanobacter.

Having a spot of Cyanobacter is normal for a new system that's still unstable. A bloom in an established reef tank is an indication of a severe nutrient problem.

I'd suggest adding a skimmer and using purified water for topoff and water changes

 

[Jolieve]

Explain this to me Bob.

If you believe so strongly in your method, how hard is it to spend a few bucks to prove your point? If you really, truly believe that your method works, then quit arguing with everyone about it and prove it to them by entering the nano build off, otherwise.. just quit arguing about it.

J.

 

[Bucktronix]

put up or shutup.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually he shouldn't enter the contest. His method may result in the death of corals/fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Explain this to me Bob.

If you believe so strongly in your method, how hard is it to spend a few bucks to prove your point? If you really, truly believe that your method works, then quit arguing with everyone about it and prove it to them by entering the nano build off, otherwise.. just quit arguing about it.

J.

Hey has too many beata (I think he means "Betta") setups to allow for another nano. :roll:

Really Bob, at this point, all your links in the world won't do it. I'm with Bucktronix,

put up or shutup.

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

What cyano blooms? I do advise that when (if) you get a cyano bloom it is a sign that nitrates have lowered and by harventing macros the cyano goes away. I did get some some cyano a few months ago. That went away with that method. And I do get say a 1"x1" spot of cyano every month or two. Which goes away in a day when I harvest some macros.

But red cyano over a large portion of the tank has never happened.

Uh, bob cyano is fueled by high nitrates and Phosphates in the tank, not by a lack of them..exerpted from article http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/algaecontro1/index.htm

Phosphates (PO 4 ), DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds), and nitrates (NO 3 ) are primary nutrient food sources for red and other slime algae.
Phosphates (PO 4 ) are commonly introduced into aquariums by means of using unfiltered fresh tap water, and through many aquarium products that may contain higher than normal concentrations of this element, such as sea salt mixes, activated carbon, KH buffers, foods, and many other sources.

Yes yes I know. but this does no consider the dynamic where extensive macros and other green algaea are consuming those nutrients. As I stated the greens become nitrate limited, slow their growth and therefore phosphate consumption. then the reds appear. so what happened. Nitrates are low phosphates high. NO cyano when nitrates were higher and phosphates lower. So what happened?

From the web

Although high nitrates are usually
suspect when blue-green algae begins to grow, Vinny Kutty reports
\cite{Kutt92} that it can grow even in water that is almost absent of
nitrates (because it can fix atmospheric nitrogen) -- provided there
are phosphates in the water.

therfore the cyano now sees phosphates, and can take the nitrogen for the air. Bingo cyano bacteria growth. So harvest some macros, get the macro growth rate up, and the consumption of phosphates, and again the macros out compete the cyano for nutrients.

Being as phosphates come from the food we add they will be present regardless of ro/di. skimmers and water changes will not remove all the phosphates or nitrates either.

So in a heavy plant life tank, the slowing of macro growth then the appearance of some cyano is simply an indication nitrates are near 0.0 and phosphates have bumped up. The disappearance of the cyano after harvesting macros is an indication phosphates have lowered again.

Regardless of what else is going on in the system.

 

[Anonymous]

SHOW ME THE TANK!

 

[Anonymous]

Bob

What are your cradentials for continually proposing this method of reefkeeping? Since it is not the norm you must have done extensive reasearch in closed systems with the proper controls. Of course you must have poled every reefkeeper out and about to prove that plant based filtration is the only method that works. People like Fender, Boreman, etc will back you up since they share your views? Do you have any degree in marine biology or the like that can back up all of your propostions?

 

[Anonymous]

From the web

Although high nitrates are usually
suspect when blue-green algae begins to grow, Vinny Kutty reports
\cite{Kutt92} that it can grow even in water that is almost absent of
nitrates (because it can fix atmospheric nitrogen) -- provided there
are phosphates in the water.

Cyanobacteria is not the same as 'blue green algae', bob.

 

[Anonymous]

From the web

Although high nitrates are usually
suspect when blue-green algae begins to grow, Vinny Kutty reports
\cite{Kutt92} that it can grow even in water that is almost absent of
nitrates (because it can fix atmospheric nitrogen) -- provided there
are phosphates in the water.

Cyanobacteria is not the same as 'blue green algae', bob.

Actually, they are.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

 

[Anonymous]

Being as phosphates come from the food we add they will be present regardless of ro/di. skimmers and water changes will not remove all the phosphates or nitrates either.

Neither will plant life. And, you know phosphates come from more that the food we add?

 

[Anonymous]

From the web

Although high nitrates are usually
suspect when blue-green algae begins to grow, Vinny Kutty reports
\cite{Kutt92} that it can grow even in water that is almost absent of
nitrates (because it can fix atmospheric nitrogen) -- provided there
are phosphates in the water.

Cyanobacteria is not the same as 'blue green algae', bob.

Actually, they are.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanointro.html

My bad Righty, I was thinking of the conventional use of that term.