Beaslbob! Now's Your Chance to show your stuff!

[Anonymous]

In my FW planted I do get a very slow hard algae growth that I scrape off the glass about every six months or so.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Whatever the phosphates, there is slow corraline and calcius algae growth.

...because your phosphates are high. I had identical issues when using tap water. Since I switched over to RO, and used RowaPhos to remove remaining phosphates, coraline is starting to grow faster. From what I understand, the PO4 prevents the proper breakdown of calcium for calcius algaes, and stony corals. Guys correct me if I'm wrong.

~wings~

 

[HClH2OFish]

Aw fer crying out tears!!
Bob, we love ya man...but ya see up in the address bar? It's www.reefs.org NOT www.freshwaterplantedtanks.org or www.bettabowlsrock.org or even www.imightbeatroll.org

ANYTHING INVOLVING YOUR FW/FO IS IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF REEFS!!!

I honestly think you are purposely trying to be contentious and stir things up. Stop being so obtuse, and stop using other tanks to support you claim that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You are constantly arguing arguing arguing and once someone agrees that yes, you are in fact correct on some note (few and far between I'm afraid) you immediately snip that and post it as a support for all that you do.

YOUR "METHOD" ISN'T A METHOD. You have now gone to saying it's just "add good plants first"
Well that's fine....now do us all a favor and stop positing it as a panacea to all that is ill in someones tank.

Your tank looks like crap to me...sorry, it does. That's likely because of the lighting used to take the pics, the green tint to the water caused by the amount of macros in the tank, don't like the egg crate in back and the type of rock you use. Does this mean I'm slamming your tank? Nope...I'm saying I don't like the way you've set it up and wouldn't do it myself.

That said, I have no problem with you discussing how you do your tank and set it up. Again, my issue is how you are placing/posing yourself as a person of authority in many of these forums and espousing techniques that are not good husbandry at all.

And as far as not participating in the nano? Sheesh...c'mon guys.. :roll: :roll: By your own assertions 'your' method is cheap cheap cheap. I'd figure it would be a nice acid test to run 'your' method side by side with other methods that have come to be known as standard, good practice. *shrug* But maybe it's only me to whom that makes sense.

/rant off

 

[Anonymous]

In my FW planted I do get a very slow hard algae growth that I scrape off the glass about every six months or so.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Whatever the phosphates, there is slow corraline and calcius algae growth.

...because your phosphates are high. I had identical issues when using tap water. Since I switched over to RO, and used RowaPhos to remove remaining phosphates, coraline is starting to grow faster. From what I understand, the PO4 prevents the proper breakdown of calcium for calcius algaes, and stony corals. Guys correct me if I'm wrong.

~wings~

Seems to me that in a system full of green plant life that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low. that may also explain why I have no cyano bacteria blooms.

I think what is happening in both systems including the irrelevant one, is that the calcius algaes are calcium limited. As the corraline increases in the reef, the system simply adds more calcium carbonate. But at 400ppm and alk of 2 meg/l it simply is not at the super saturated levels of dosing, kalk drips and calcium reactors. So there is slower growth. Without risking a precipation event, high ph, or crash do to overdosing or other failure modes.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in[/b] a system full of green plant life[/b] that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low. that may also explain why I have no cyano bacteria blooms.

That is NOT a reef tank. It just isn't. Period. And it doesn't explain why you don't have cyano breakouts either.. you said you do. Why would harvesting your plant life prevent a cyano breakout? I know why, but do you?

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in a system full of green plant life that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low.

Thank you for the kind thoughts earlier Bob. Now back to the chase :twisted: LOL

A test will quickly confirm your belief. I believe you will be surprised at your PO4 reading if you choose to have it tested.

I think what is happening in both systems including the irrelevant one, is that the calcius algaes are calcium limited.

If your system is actually at 400ppm Calcium then your coralline is not Calcium limited. That's still far above saturation level. ALK of 2.0Meq/L is slightly low but still plenty of Carbonate is available unless your ALK is mostly Borate (Since you don't do water changes or use additives I don't see how that could be possible though).

OTOH, if your Calcium test is only measuring the dust free floating from the crushed oyster shells then there may not be a supersaturated level of dissolved Calcium.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in[/b] a system full of green plant life[/b] that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low. that may also explain why I have no cyano bacteria blooms.

That is NOT a reef tank. It just isn't. Period. And it doesn't explain why you don't have cyano breakouts either.. you said you do. Why would harvesting your plant life prevent a cyano breakout? I know why, but do you?

~wings~

Wings: If any tank with any plant life is not a reef tank by your definition, the we simple disagree on what a reef tank is.

I am glad you agree I am preventing cyano bacteria.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in[/b] a system full of green plant life[/b] that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low. that may also explain why I have no cyano bacteria blooms.

That is NOT a reef tank. It just isn't. Period. And it doesn't explain why you don't have cyano breakouts either.. you said you do. Why would harvesting your plant life prevent a cyano breakout? I know why, but do you?

~wings~

Wings: If any tank with any plant life is not a reef tank by your definition, the we simple disagree on what a reef tank is.

I am glad you agree I am preventing cyano bacteria.

No, I don't agree. I quoted you. That is NOT a good method of preventing cyano, IMO. It works, but for newbie, it's not easy.

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in a system full of green plant life that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low.

Thank you for the kind thoughts earlier Bob. Now back to the chase :twisted: LOL

A test will quickly confirm your belief. I believe you will be surprised at your PO4 reading if you choose to have it tested.

I think what is happening in both systems including the irrelevant one, is that the calcius algaes are calcium limited.

If your system is actually at 400ppm Calcium then your coralline is not Calcium limited. That's still far above saturation level. ALK of 2.0Meq/L is slightly low but still plenty of Carbonate is available unless your ALK is mostly Borate (Since you don't do water changes or use additives I don't see how that could be possible though).

OTOH, if your Calcium test is only measuring the dust free floating from the crushed oyster shells then there may not be a supersaturated level of dissolved Calcium.

With respect Guy, it is not dust. The system is using the same exact method to provide calcium as calcium reactors, only at lower levels. From what I have read from various sources ocean water has 400-420ppm calcium and alk of 2.5 meg/l. So I think I am close enough.

the oyster shells are 96% or so calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does start dissolving at a ph below 8. My tank does have a nightly ph below that. The shells do have good water flow through them to prevent a higher ph boundry level isolating the shells from the water.

Although not the current in vogue method, it has maintained the calcium at 400ppm (385-425) and alk at 2 for many months now. And the corraline spots have slowly increased in size. And the limited corraline on the rocks have slowly increased and remained a nice pink color. I am satisfied my getto calcium reactor is doing just fine.

 

[Anonymous]

With respect Guy, it is not dust. The system is using the same exact method to provide calcium as calcium reactors, only at lower levels.

Come on Bob, we have been over this before. What you are doing is not at all like a ca reactor. I can't believe after all this time and all this discussion and all the explanation that you are still saying such bizarre things.
you have no idea if the oyster shells are doing anything. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc is not a good way to determine if something has an effect.

Although not the current in vogue method, it has maintained the calcium at 400ppm (385-425) and alk at 2 for many months now. And the corraline spots have slowly increased in size. And the limited corraline on the rocks have slowly increased and remained a nice pink color. I am satisfied my getto calcium reactor is doing just fine.

You have no way at all to show that the oyster shells are doing anything - you aren't even willing to do the simplest test of removing the oyster shells to see if you ca changes.
On my cuttle/softie system I have no ca reactor, no oyster shells, and very little sand, but the Ca stays around 400 and coralline grows like crazy. Based on that you should remove your oyster shell gizmo (I am unwilling to call it a ghetto ca reactor because it is nothing like a ca reactor) and save time and money so you can enter a tank in the build off.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me that in a system full of green plant life that is thriving and keeping nitrates unmeasureable, phosphates should also be low.

Thank you for the kind thoughts earlier Bob. Now back to the chase :twisted: LOL

A test will quickly confirm your belief. I believe you will be surprised at your PO4 reading if you choose to have it tested.

I think what is happening in both systems including the irrelevant one, is that the calcius algaes are calcium limited.

If your system is actually at 400ppm Calcium then your coralline is not Calcium limited. That's still far above saturation level. ALK of 2.0Meq/L is slightly low but still plenty of Carbonate is available unless your ALK is mostly Borate (Since you don't do water changes or use additives I don't see how that could be possible though).

OTOH, if your Calcium test is only measuring the dust free floating from the crushed oyster shells then there may not be a supersaturated level of dissolved Calcium.

With respect Guy, it is not dust. The system is using the same exact method to provide calcium as calcium reactors, only at lower levels. From what I have read from various sources ocean water has 400-420ppm calcium and alk of 2.5 meg/l. So I think I am close enough.

the oyster shells are 96% or so calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does start dissolving at a ph below 8. My tank does have a nightly ph below that. The shells do have good water flow through them to prevent a higher ph boundry level isolating the shells from the water.

Although not the current in vogue method, it has maintained the calcium at 400ppm (385-425) and alk at 2 for many months now. And the corraline spots have slowly increased in size. And the limited corraline on the rocks have slowly increased and remained a nice pink color. I am satisfied my getto calcium reactor is doing just fine.

sounds beautiful... got a pic?

 

[Anonymous]

With respect Guy, it is not dust. The system is using the same exact method to provide calcium as calcium reactors, only at lower levels.

Come on Bob, we have been over this before. What you are doing is not at all like a ca reactor. I can't believe after all this time and all this discussion and all the explanation that you are still saying such bizarre things.

Although not the current in vogue method, it has maintained the calcium at 400ppm (385-425) and alk at 2 for many months now. And the corraline spots have slowly increased in size. And the limited corraline on the rocks have slowly increased and remained a nice pink color. I am satisfied my getto calcium reactor is doing just fine.

You have no way at all to show that the oyster shells are doing anything - you aren't even willing to do the simplest test of removing the oyster shells to see if you ca changes.
On my cuttle/softie system I have no ca reactor, no oyster shells, and very little sand, but the Ca stays around 400 and coralline grows like crazy. Based on that you should remove your oyster shell gizmo (I am unwilling to call it a ghetto ca reactor because it is nothing like a ca reactor) and save time and money so you can enter a tank in the build off.

i think you have discovered a new method in calcium addition.. i bet a cuttlefish is cheaper than a calcium reactor.. maybe we should all house those.

 

[Anonymous]

With respect Guy, it is not dust. The system is using the same exact method to provide calcium as calcium reactors, only at lower levels.

Come on Bob, we have been over this before. What you are doing is not at all like a ca reactor. I can't believe after all this time and all this discussion and all the explanation that you are still saying such bizarre things.

Although not the current in vogue method, it has maintained the calcium at 400ppm (385-425) and alk at 2 for many months now. And the corraline spots have slowly increased in size. And the limited corraline on the rocks have slowly increased and remained a nice pink color. I am satisfied my getto calcium reactor is doing just fine.

You have no way at all to show that the oyster shells are doing anything - you aren't even willing to do the simplest test of removing the oyster shells to see if you ca changes.
On my cuttle/softie system I have no ca reactor, no oyster shells, and very little sand, but the Ca stays around 400 and coralline grows like crazy. Based on that you should remove your oyster shell gizmo (I am unwilling to call it a ghetto ca reactor because it is nothing like a ca reactor) and save time and money so you can enter a tank in the build off.

i think you have discovered a new method in calcium addition.. i bet a cuttlefish is cheaper than a calcium reactor.. maybe we should all house those.

Yeah!
Its got to be the cuttles keeping the ca up because it couldn't be the lack of ca using organisms not uptaking the ca!

 

[Anonymous]

the oyster shells are 96% or so calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does start dissolving at a ph below 8. My tank does have a nightly ph below that.

You've recently convinced me that Oyster Shells will begin to dissolve at an ALK below 2.0Meq/L, PH below 7.8 and Calcium below 400. But you still haven't convinced me that the small amount that dissolves will maintain Calcium in a reef tank. I still believe most of your Calcium comes from your tap water. I can't test your tap water from here so I may never find out.

Your Oyster Shells would definately be counter-productive in a well maintained system though. Between leaching PO4 and providing seed crystals for CaCO3 precipitation it could be the downfall of a healthy reef system.

 

[Anonymous]

I was wondering how your coralline grew so well on that tank Rich--it's da cuttles!!!

 

[Anonymous]

But you still haven't convinced me that the small amount that dissolves will maintain Calcium in a reef tank. I still believe most of your Calcium comes from your tap water. I can't test your tap water from here so I may never find out.

Yes, and Bob this is why people are making a big deal about the definition of a reef tank. Most people aspire to a tank full of thriving corals. They will pull a ton of CA from the water; far more than your methods could provide.

 

[Anonymous]

My concern is that if Oyster Shell can dissolve, what's stopping coral skeleton from dissolving at such a low ALK & PH?

 

[HClH2OFish]

How come they last so long in the ocean after the oyster has died????

 

[Anonymous]

ALK and PH are too high for them to dissolve.

 

[Anonymous]

If my tank had sufficient calcium carbonate to buffer the nightly ph drop then the shells would not dissolve nearly as fast. Just like in the ocean.

So let's summerize, I have ~3-5 pounds of oyster shells with 5x water flow around them. And 1 ounce of live coral. So during the day the 1 ounce of live coral takes in some calcium carbonate so that is grows in the order of 1/2 an inch per month or so. During this time the plant life in the display area consumes the carbon dioxide, ph rises, fish are happy and the coral has oxygen also. In fact the tank becomes a carbon dioxide sink to the surrounding area.

Then at night carbon dioxide rises. Causing ph do drop as buffered by the calcium carbonate in the system. At some point the 3-5 pounds plus 1 ounce of calcium carbonate starts dissolving and buffering the ph drop. So the overwhelming calcium carbonate disolving is the oyster shells. The ph stops falling when buffered by the calcium carbonate. At lights on the carbon dioxide is consumed by plant life, ph rises, and the live coral resumes growth.


So the calcium carbonate consumption is the coral, corraline, calcius algae all of which are very small compared to the amount of oyster shells. The calcium carbonate source is overwhelming the oyster shells. So the calcium carbonate goes from the shells to the livestock. More consumption, more calcium carbonate provided by the shells. A very stable operation.

And powered by co2 and a source of calcium carbonate just like a calcium reactor.

 

[Anonymous]

16 pages an what do you get.

another page older and deaper in ******

:lol: