Need Expert Advice on Nitrates & Phosphates

[Domboski]

I gave up on even trying to keep a reef for my favorite corals (which I have never owned) because I just couldn't figure out how to maintain my water params. After having a discussion with KathyC (Thanks Kathy!), maybe my problem isn't as obvious and not me being totally incapable. I have only been keeping Gorgs (with great success) some soft corals including mushrooms. Nothing else. I love plate corals but won't even try because I know they will die in my system.

My water Params are as follows:

PH 8.13
NH3 <.25
PO4 3ppm (could be more that was chart max)
CA 500ppm
NO2 .25
NO3 20ppm (low range)
Mg 1320 ppm
ALk High end of the normal range

System Info:

~72 Gallon Bow front with a 20 gallon Sump
~100lbs Live Rock (most was dead before I added to the tank and found in the sump)
~100lbs live sand (3-4" sand bed)
~ETSS Reef Devil Protein Skimmer (Run wet skimmate)
~Sump has two compartments of live rock and one for Macro algae
The sump used to be all sand but I thought it was part of the problem so I re-organized the sump several months ago. Needless to say didn't work.
~6 Koralia's (Four K1s and Two K2s) Nothing settles on the sand
~I have an Overflow box that is about 500-600gph. Recently I decided to add another overflowbox on the opposite side of the tank but haven't done it yet.
~I have a chiller that keeps the water temp between 72 and 75 degrees.


Stock list (I know its not typical):

Pair of false clowns
2 Pajama Cardinals
1 Very small Crocodile Fish
1 Sea Goblin
3 Seahorses
2 Octos
2 Ribbon Eels
@100 Nass Snails
@100 Blue leg hermits
1 Indo Sea Hare
2 Spotted Sea Slugs
1 Juvenile Pacific Sailfin Tang
1 False Stone Fish
2 LARGE cleaner shrimp
2 LARGE fire shrimp
6 Monkey shrimp
1 Coral banded
2 chocolate chip starfish small (for now)
1 Harlequin shrimp (hence the for now previously)
1 Dwarf Lionfish

All fish are quite small. The seahorses are the biggest other than the eels who are long. Most fish will be removed and put into my 200 gallon as they outgrow the tank.

Feeding:

I feed 1 or 2 cubes of frozen mysis twice a day to the seahorses (Dwarf lion and croc fish also eat the mysis). The mysis is thawed and rinsed before added to the tank. All of my Koralia's are on remote and are shutdown during mysis feeding. I also feed Formula 1 & 2 flakes every other day (not much at each feeding). The flakes are only eaten by the clowns, tang and cardinals. Live fish are fed to the sea goblin, false stonefish and the dwarf lion twice a week (just enough for them to eat). The two ribbon eels are fed two frozen fish each 2-3 times a week.

I have been in this routine for over a year. I used to feed much more mysis shrimp but found a more effecient way to make sure everyone got their fill.

Water changes:

I use RO/DI Water.

I just tested to make sure:

TDS = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 0
PO4 = 0

I change 50 gallons once a week. I used to use Tropic Marin Pro Reef but then moved to Reef Crystals. It has entered my mind that I may be changing the water too much but the high Nitrates and Phosphates put that to bed.

I have read so much and I do all things that everyone suggests. My tank is spotless as I remove all algae that grows when I do water changes. I even clean off every Koralia.

Hopefully I haven't exhausted all of my options and I am missing something. I appreciate any help or thoughts. I should also mention that I am replacing the Reef Devil with an ASM G3 this weekend in hopes that helps but really feel like there is more to it than that.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Dom

 

[Domboski]

I Use Salifert Test Kits.

Here is a picture of the sump:

Left side

Right Side

 

[jhale]

my first thought is your skimmer is much too small.

changing 50 gallons a week on a 90 gallon system should be more than enough
to keep the water clean.

 

[House of Laughter]

Dom,

I would try to benchmark with someone else testing with their test kits as well as with yours - eliminates your error and benchmarks it against another (same as) test kit.

Also, are you using salifert for phosphate? Anyone near you have a Hannah meter?

house

 

[Domboski]

Do you think the G3 could be the answer?

That would be awesome.

 

[Killerdrgn]

It really seems to me that your stocking your tank a little heavy. The tang and lionfish are heavy waste producers.

 

[juiceguy]

it sounds like more a rock/sand problem, your parameters...amm & nitrite are as if you were still cycling. could be a mussel or other decaying in your rocks and 50% weekly water changes are excessive and imo, a waste of $. i would invest in a phos reactor and pull out the rocks to check for anything foul.

 

[Domboski]

Dom,

I would try to benchmark with someone else testing with their test kits as well as with yours - eliminates your error and benchmarks it against another (same as) test kit.

Also, are you using salifert for phosphate? Anyone near you have a Hannah meter?

house

Hi Jim,

I am using Salifert for the Phosphate test. I had my suspicions that the reading for the PO4 was too high but a sure sign is the pusling Xenia that was growing like crazy has now begun to shrivel up. All other corals look ok but not much growth. One of my Gorgs is growing like Crazy though. :scratchch

I don't know anyone with a hannah meter. I thought the reef devil deluxe was a good skimmer for this sized tank but I guess not. I'll put the G3 in this weekend and do another water change and see what happens. I would love to become an active coral keeper! I'm jealous looking at all of your tanks!

 

[meschaefer]

If you measuring 3 ppm on a salifert test kit, you can bet that it is higher than that.

Looking at your parameters, it is the phosphate reading that really bothers me. The nitrate is on the high end, but I have seen people with Nitrates higher than that keep great looking SPS tanks, the trick is very low phosphates.

The first thing that I would do is add a phosphate reactor to your system, and buy some GFO in bulk. It is going to take awhile to get your phosphates down and to keep it down and you going to go through GFO fast until you overcome your current phosphate problem. It is much easier to tweak your phosphate levels when you have an accurate understanding of your phosphate readings. Without an accurate way to measure phosphate assume that your phosphate levels are high, and that you want to aim for a zero reading with a salifert test kit. You will still need to assume that your phosphate level are not zero, but you will at least have a handle on the problem.

 

[Domboski]

It really seems to me that your stocking your tank a little heavy. The tang and lionfish are heavy waste producers.

I can understand that as a first thought but these fish are really small. I have much heavier stocked FOWLR tanks that have equivalent or even better watar params.

 

[Domboski]

it sounds like more a rock/sand problem, your parameters...amm & nitrite are as if you were still cycling. could be a mussel or other decaying in your rocks and 50% weekly water changes are excessive and imo, a waste of $. i would invest in a phos reactor and pull out the rocks to check for anything foul.

I thought that but this has been an issue for over a year. Not only that, the Octos hang out in any crevice there is and remove anything untidey from the dens. I do have a ton of small starfish sticking their arms out from really small crevices in the rock too. I guess they would polish anything off in the rock.

 

[Domboski]

If you measuring 3 ppm on a salifert test kit, you can bet that it is higher than that.

Looking at your parameters, it is the phosphate reading that really bothers me. The nitrate is on the high end, but I have seen people with Nitrates higher than that keep great looking SPS tanks, the trick is very low phosphates.

The first thing that I would do is add a phosphate reactor to your system, and buy some GFO in bulk. It is going to take awhile to get your phosphates down and to keep it down and you going to go through GFO fast until you overcome your current phosphate problem. It is much easier to tweak your phosphate levels when you have an accurate understanding of your phosphate readings. Without an accurate way to measure phosphate assume that your phosphate levels are high, and that you want to aim for a zero reading with a salifert test kit. You will still need to assume that your phosphate level are not zero, but you will at least have a handle on the problem.

I have three phosphate reactors that I used to run. They were run in one line. The first was always full of carbon and the next two was tried with Phosban, Rowaphos and even Phosguard. they were temporary fixes but I had to buy so much so often it became a money problem. I'd much rather identify the cause and rid myself of it and maintain with water changes.

 

[Domboski]

I've read that it is possible for Rocks and Sand to cause such an issue. Is this really true?

 

[Killerdrgn]

I thought that but this has been an issue for over a year. Not only that, the Octos hang out in any crevice there is and remove anything untidey from the dens. I do have a ton of small starfish sticking their arms out from really small crevices in the rock too. I guess they would polish anything off in the rock.

Have you checked the sump and cheato? there might be decaying matter in that part of the system. At this point in time your rock and sand should make your ammonia and nitrite reading a big fat 0. Coral can live with a little nitrate, so much so that some in europe actually dose nitrate, but a little ammonia or nitrite is an absolute no go. You may want to find some way of adding more rock to your system or temporarily adding a wet dry filter. something to make the ammonia and nitrite go away. Plus if your using rodi water where would the phospates be coming from.

This might be an important question in answering your problems, where did you get your rock and sand from? what kind of sand and rock is it?

 

[meschaefer]

I've read that it is possible for Rocks and Sand to cause such an issue. Is this really true?

Perhaps, I have heard it said and my own experience seems to bear this out that in a tank that has high phophate levels the rock and sand can absorb the phosphate and then leech it back out into the water.

Your phosphate levels are high because of the amount of food you need to feed your fish.

I don't view GFO as a temporary solution, but rather as another tool available to you.

I would also get rid of the refugium and maybe even the rocks in the sump. They are probably doing you more harm than good.

 

[Killerdrgn]

I've read that it is possible for Rocks and Sand to cause such an issue. Is this really true?

Since they were dead rock did you let your rocks cure before adding it in?
if totally dead should take about 2 - 4 weeks of no live activity. i.e. no fish, no inverts, no nothing just sit in a bucket of saltwater with some powerheads, heaters, and maybe a skimmer.

 

[meschaefer]

or temporarily adding a wet dry filter. something to make the ammonia and nitrite go away. Plus if your using rodi water where would the phospates be coming from.

Do not use a wet dry filter, they have no place in a reef tank.

His phosphates are coming from his food, all food - all of it- has phosphates in it.

The cubed mysis shrimp that you feed may be a problem depending on the brand. Most "cube" food that has a gellatin binder has high phosphate levels. IME, testing with a Hanna, rinising this food does not really solve the problem.

 

[Killerdrgn]

Do not use a wet dry filter, they have no place in a reef tank.

His phosphates are coming from his food, all food - all of it- has phosphates in it.

The cubed mysis shrimp that you feed may be a problem depending on the brand. Most "cube" food that has a gellatin binder has high phosphate levels. IME, testing with a Hanna, rinising this food does not really solve the problem.

Thats why i said temporarily, just to get things down. The phosphate from food should not throw the phospate reading off the charts especially with 50% water changes every week. There are people that feed extremely heavily but don't have this high of a phosphate reading. And when i mean heavily i mean the water turns cloudy from all the food. Unless he's feeding some really poor quality food.

Which brings another question what kind of food are you feeding? What brand?

 

[Deanos]

There are people that feed extremely heavily but don't have this high of a phosphate reading.

Those people typically have skimmers highly overrated for their sized system.

 

[Killerdrgn]

Those people typically have skimmers highly overrated for their sized system.

True, but there are those that don't always run them, and then there are also those people that don't have skimmers or any other mechanical filter in their system.