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Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
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Oh and one other question are you sure your algae isn't melting away in the fuge? If it gets too packed the parts not getting light may start to melt away and decay.

This is very likely. I don't have a ton of algae in the main tank but I used to have a ton in the fuge when I was using a different light. That may explain the weird dusty tan algae that collects on the glass. It literally is like dust.

I will do a before and after as suggested. I have a lot of work ahead of me :help:
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
Yes! I just installed the G3 and truth be told my sump was a mess. The rocks looked fine on the outside but they were loaded with shi+. I even found fish I didn't know I had. I removed all rocks and left over sand, scrubbed the glass clean everywhere and installed the G3. I then did a 50 gal. water change. I am going to check phosphates in a few hours.

My next move is to wait two days and do another 50gal water change and then add one phosphate reactor. What I do next is dependent on how the water tests after I add the reactor.

Thanks for all of your help. My display remains crystal clear and so is the sump now.
 

NYreefNoob

Skimmer Freak
Location
poughquag, ny
Rating - 99.4%
168   1   0
someone kept saying it was the food, if you read he said he thaws and rinse's the food, this could be part of it, but i myself have a heavy stocked tank. over feed and dont rinze my food, but then again i dont test water parms. everything looks good leave it alone and stick with what you are doing. also have you check parms on water that you are using when doing wc ? read somewhere on rc about the tropic marin salt having high phosphate's, { same salt i use } but i am switching it out, reaad that the phos will leach out if you let it mix for a few days. i mix mine almost a week in advance. i would say a big part of it was your skimmer. i would never use a etss skimmer again, they are junk in my opinion, unless you are using the 600 or larger model, the regular reef devil and deluxe suck. they dont stay dialed in. i wouldnt do suck a large wc weekly either on a total of 90g i would do maybe 20g. also with all the rock and i think i read you have sand in the sump you will get debrise build up which will cause a problem also. just my 2 cents
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
someone kept saying it was the food, if you read he said he thaws and rinse's the food, this could be part of it, but i myself have a heavy stocked tank. over feed and dont rinze my food, but then again i dont test water parms. everything looks good leave it alone and stick with what you are doing. also have you check parms on water that you are using when doing wc ? read somewhere on rc about the tropic marin salt having high phosphate's, { same salt i use } but i am switching it out, reaad that the phos will leach out if you let it mix for a few days. i mix mine almost a week in advance. i would say a big part of it was your skimmer. i would never use a etss skimmer again, they are junk in my opinion, unless you are using the 600 or larger model, the regular reef devil and deluxe suck. they dont stay dialed in. i wouldnt do suck a large wc weekly either on a total of 90g i would do maybe 20g. also with all the rock and i think i read you have sand in the sump you will get debrise build up which will cause a problem also. just my 2 cents

I think it was the sump. It was loaded with debris that couldn't be seen. My rock is very porous. I love ETSS skimmers but I had the 750 and 800 so then I went with the RD deluxe. It seemed to be pulling a lot out and it was run wet.

I checked the mixed wc water and all params were perfect (reef crystals). I'm sure it was a combo of the skimmer and the debris in the sump. It is a waiting game now to see how everything tests.
 

loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
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Dom, all that rock you have in the sump needs to be cooked as per Jim's technique. That rock is no good and will cause problems until you do cook it.
Fred (fritz) brings up a point in an old skimmer thread. Water from the overflow that goes down into our sumps is pretty much the nastiest, protein laden water in the tank. Fred's way of handling this is by gravity feeding his skimmer. You are allowing it to smash into a pile of rocks. Those rocks absorb all those proteins, PO4, NO3, SH1t, etc. and they eventually become saturated and release it. I would remove the rock and put filter socks in there and replace them every 2 to 3 days.
The same is happening with that polyfilter chamber you have going on there. You are saturating them far too fast for them to be of any use. I like Poly filters and they have their place, but overall, they aren't very effective at dropping PO4 or NO3. Nutrient removal through filter sock replacement is more effective and far cheaper. Cut up the polypads and stick them in a phosban reactor for longevity and better use of them. I typically don't used the foam that comes in phosban reactors and place in cut up poly pads or even better, Pura pads.:shhh:
Since you got the ASM, get the recirc mod and gravity feed it.
Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. If you want to keep a little ball of cheato in there tumbling around, fine. But prune it often.
I've had several MR members that I was able to talk out of fuges and every single one of them saw improvements in their tanks after removal. The most commonly noted issue was a spike in NO3 because most of them also removed a sand bed when they removed their fuges. IME, high NO3 is only an issue in the presence of high PO4. Either way, we had a thread a while back where people who push fuges were asked to produce some photos showing the success of fuges and we only had a couple of members were able to do so.
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
Dom, all that rock you have in the sump needs to be cooked as per Jim's technique. That rock is no good and will cause problems until you do cook it.
Fred (fritz) brings up a point in an old skimmer thread. Water from the overflow that goes down into our sumps is pretty much the nastiest, protein laden water in the tank. Fred's way of handling this is by gravity feeding his skimmer. You are allowing it to smash into a pile of rocks. Those rocks absorb all those proteins, PO4, NO3, SH1t, etc. and they eventually become saturated and release it. I would remove the rock and put filter socks in there and replace them every 2 to 3 days.
The same is happening with that polyfilter chamber you have going on there. You are saturating them far too fast for them to be of any use. I like Poly filters and they have their place, but overall, they aren't very effective at dropping PO4 or NO3. Nutrient removal through filter sock replacement is more effective and far cheaper. Cut up the polypads and stick them in a phosban reactor for longevity and better use of them. I typically don't used the foam that comes in phosban reactors and place in cut up poly pads or even better, Pura pads.:shhh:
Since you got the ASM, get the recirc mod and gravity feed it.
Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. If you want to keep a little ball of cheato in there tumbling around, fine. But prune it often.
I've had several MR members that I was able to talk out of fuges and every single one of them saw improvements in their tanks after removal. The most commonly noted issue was a spike in NO3 because most of them also removed a sand bed when they removed their fuges. IME, high NO3 is only an issue in the presence of high PO4. Either way, we had a thread a while back where people who push fuges were asked to produce some photos showing the success of fuges and we only had a couple of members were able to do so.

Thanks Chris. It is nice to see you on the board. I did remove everything and used a small chamber to grow some red algae. I have the algae because I use it to feed my spotted sea slugs. Since I am not using it as nutrient export anymore I added one of my sea slugs directly in the compartment with the Algae. It will eat enough to keep it in check. It will also have me checking in on it as I love to watch the Slugs mow it down.

Do you think I should remove the poly filter? I use it to grab the large particles not so much for nutrient export.

I'll read up on the mod. I tend to shy away from modifying things myself unless it is real easy. My poor father had a son who does not possess his steady hand. LOL

I was going to leave the live rock out. Do you think I should cook it and put some back in?

I'm going to add two phosphate reactors tomorrow in-line fed by a MJ1200. The first reactor is going to be filled with phosguard and the second by Phosban. What do you think?
 

KathyC

Moderator
Location
Barnum Island
Rating - 100%
200   0   0
Interesting info Chris..would like to pose a few questions to be sure I have this right & to clarify for myself & others who might be following this thread...

A sump is fine but a fuge is a poor idea because pretty much everything we keep in there..the rocks, sand & chaeto are all absorbing the nasty stuff & re-releasing it into our tanks...so we are fighting a losing battle- right?

The principle behind trimming the chaeto is to trim off the parts that are laden with nitrates allowing fresh growth to absorb them?
How frequently should that be done?

The most commonly noted issue was a spike in NO3 because most of them also removed a sand bed when they removed their fuges. IME, high NO3 is only an issue in the presence of high PO4.
Just how dangerous is removing the sandbed in the fuge all at once. What should we be watching for?
Can it be done in stages to lessen the impact?
How quickly does the tank recover from a removal such as this?

What if I can't gravity feed my skimmer due to the configuration of my equipment (like it's in another room..lol)?

...and what didn't I ask that I should have? :)
 
Last edited:

Killerdrgn

Advanced Reefer
Location
Park Ridge, NJ
Rating - 100%
22   0   0
Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. Lose the fuge. If you want to keep a little ball of cheato in there tumbling around, fine. But prune it often.
I've had several MR members that I was able to talk out of fuges and every single one of them saw improvements in their tanks after removal. The most commonly noted issue was a spike in NO3 because most of them also removed a sand bed when they removed their fuges. IME, high NO3 is only an issue in the presence of high PO4. Either way, we had a thread a while back where people who push fuges were asked to produce some photos showing the success of fuges and we only had a couple of members were able to do so.

Ok if you want photo's of people with sucessful tanks with fuges, go to the boston reefers site http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/. I'm sure you will find more than plenty of volunteers there to take photos of their tanks with fuges. You should really consider expanding your search worldwide instead of just saying no one in NY does it, thus it doesn't work.

KathyC said:
The principle behind trimming the chaeto is to trim off the parts that are laden with nitrates allowing fresh growth to absorb them?
How frequently should that be done?

Back in Boston it was usually once a month, but more accurately it was done whenever it was needed for the size of the fuge it was in. You'll probably need to trim more often with a 10G fuge than with a 1000G fuge. Also depends on how fast your chaeto is growing. correct light, time of light exposure, etc. will determine how much to trim and how often.
 

loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 100%
31   0   0
Dom, I probably wouldn't put any rock back. If you did though, be sure to cook it. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have some in the area with the red algae. Keep good flow in the area.
Not so much remove the poly filter, but use it differently. Rather than using phosguard (which is pretty lousy IME), cut up a polypad or pura pad and put it in the second reactor. The way which you are using it, they are clogging very quickly. If you are replacing them as often as you would need to in your current application, it has to be getting very expensive. Keep an eye on your ALK. I'd bet a lot of money you are going to see a drop when you start running GFO.
Kathy,
The term fuge is used far too loosely in the hobby. A poorly maintained sump can be just as bad. Think of it like this, if a fuge is not properly maintained and loaded with detritus, it's like adding a dirty tank on to your system. People give far too much credit to algae for nutrient export when in actuality, they can't keep up with their own fuge enclosure, let alone what you are cycling through it from your main display.
Keep the cheato small is like keeping a plant in a pot. As the plant grows, you need to get a bigger pot so the plant roots have room to grow. When the cheato ball, or any algae used in fuges is kept small, it has room to grow and seems to grow faster. Growth takes energy. Nutrients we don't want are energy. Keep the ball small and tumbling so detritus can't settle in it. There are also issues like certain nutrients being limiting factors in growth, but I'm not going to go that far into it.
If you can cut off the flow to the refugium and simply remove the sand bed and all the water, I don't see any reason why you can't isolate the fuge, empty it. Put in new salt water and go from there. As far as sand in the display, there are those who remove it all at once and those who take their time. Both work. I chose the latter when I did a sand bed removal in a main display.
If you cannot gravity feed your skimmer (many cannot be gravity fed) you want to draw water from the very first chamber of your sump where display tank water overflows into it if at all possible.


Ok if you want photo's of people with sucessful tanks with fuges, go to the boston reefers site http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/. I'm sure you will find more than plenty of volunteers there to take photos of their tanks with fuges. You should really consider expanding your search worldwide instead of just saying no one in NY does it, thus it doesn't work.

There is nothing i hate more than the guy who joined the site this month and thinks he knows all of us, the work we have done in this hobby, what sites we are a part of and what I should do to better myself and my knowledge.
After all I posted in the thread, this is all you were able to come up with to comment on? We had a similar guy do the same thing on another thread. He never did post a pic. He never backed up his misinformation either. You happen to be repeating much of what he said.
If you are going to come in here and post advice, BACK IT UP like I do. Don't send me to a different web site. If you can't, then you should sit back and learn more before you give advice.
I never said my way is the right way or the only way, or that no one in NY does it, but I base it off of my own experience on what I have done on my own tanks and MANY others who have since removed their fuges. I've seen very successful tanks with fuges, but most of what we are looking at here are dirty sumps with lights on them. Dom clearly doesn't have room under his stand to run an appropriately sized refugium, so I feel it would be better for him to go without it.
Your advice here has been questionable. I can go to all the other web sites, read and then come here and parrot what they said too. We've had several members do it in the past.
I always say... go to a muscle car forum and you'll find a guy with a broken lawn mower and 3 screw drivers in his garage telling you how to rebuild an engine. All too often here and every other web site I'm a part of, we have people posting advice who have the equivalent sitting on their living room floors.
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
Thanks Chris. You know I appreciate your advice. :redface:

Everyone has been helpful on this thread. The xenia is looking good and it looks like my old worries about it growing out of control may be coming back soon. I've added phosban and the phosguard. I am still debating the other items mentioned but I think I have bought myself some extra time by cleaning up the sump to think about it some more. The skimmer mod is intriguing and so is the idea of running the "pads" in the first reactor. I will wait and see how things go in a few days after the adjustments today before I do anything else. If I do decide to mod the ASM, I will also add the pads to a reactor as I will remove the first pad run through I created.

Will keep all posted.
 
Location
Upper East Side
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
Chris (and anyone else),

What you are are saying about the polypads is really interesting. Do you have problems with the pads getting moldy and breaking down? I've been running one in my overflow box (just until I can get some gutter guard to block off the overflow) and it gets clogged up and disgusting really quickly. I find myself replacing it once per week. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the phosban reactor?
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
Chris (and anyone else),

What you are are saying about the polypads is really interesting. Do you have problems with the pads getting moldy and breaking down? I've been running one in my overflow box (just until I can get some gutter guard to block off the overflow) and it gets clogged up and disgusting really quickly. I find myself replacing it once per week. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the phosban reactor?

Once a week is about right. It may be more in the reactor but I think it is better to have to keep changing the pads vs. changing the GFO more often. JMO
 

Killerdrgn

Advanced Reefer
Location
Park Ridge, NJ
Rating - 100%
22   0   0
There is nothing i hate more than the guy who joined the site this month and thinks he knows all of us, the work we have done in this hobby, what sites we are a part of and what I should do to better myself and my knowledge.
After all I posted in the thread, this is all you were able to come up with to comment on? We had a similar guy do the same thing on another thread. He never did post a pic. He never backed up his misinformation either. You happen to be repeating much of what he said.
If you are going to come in here and post advice, BACK IT UP like I do. Don't send me to a different web site. If you can't, then you should sit back and learn more before you give advice.
I never said my way is the right way or the only way, or that no one in NY does it, but I base it off of my own experience on what I have done on my own tanks and MANY others who have since removed their fuges. I've seen very successful tanks with fuges, but most of what we are looking at here are dirty sumps with lights on them. Dom clearly doesn't have room under his stand to run an appropriately sized refugium, so I feel it would be better for him to go without it.
Your advice here has been questionable. I can go to all the other web sites, read and then come here and parrot what they said too. We've had several members do it in the past.
I always say... go to a muscle car forum and you'll find a guy with a broken lawn mower and 3 screw drivers in his garage telling you how to rebuild an engine. All too often here and every other web site I'm a part of, we have people posting advice who have the equivalent sitting on their living room floors.

Ok dude i'm just telling you to not be absolutely dismissive about the idea of a fuge, as you said in your earlier posts you've convinced people not to have refugiums. You are very adamant about people not having fuges and it's better to not have one. I have been to California, the Netherlands, Singapore, Boston, and have seen successful reef with with refugiums, i'm not saying it is because of the refugium they have successful tanks, but saying that it doesn't always make a problem like you make it out to be.
But like i am saying be open minded about it, if he wants one let him have one. I stated earlier in the thread to have him try a before and after with the fuge and then make up his mind whether or not to have one. The nitrate and phosphate problem was obviously not with the fuge but with the sump that accumulated a lot of detrius.
 

Domboski

No Coral Here
Location
Montclair, NJ
Rating - 100%
237   0   0
Sump After Phase II (behind the salt sediment on the glass)

Here is a picture of the current sump setup (minus the cleanup):

1= Current drain into sump
2= ASM G3 Skimmer
3= Red Algae Growth box with MJ400 for turning
4= Tank return and two phosphate reactors fed by one MJ400. First reactor is phosguard and second is phosban.

DSCN1777-1.jpg


Here is a picture of happier Xenia and always happy leather coral:

DSCN1780.jpg


Here is a picture of the main display:
DSCN1772.jpg
 

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