Need Expert Advice on Nitrates & Phosphates

[meschaefer]

Thats why i said temporarily, just to get things down. The phosphate from food should not throw the phospate reading off the charts especially with 50% water changes every week. There are people that feed extremely heavily but don't have this high of a phosphate reading. And when i mean heavily i mean the water turns cloudy from all the food. Unless he's feeding some really poor quality food.

Which brings another question what kind of food are you feeding? What brand?

The gel binder used in most "frozen cubes" will most definitely cause an immediate increase in phosphate level, and the food portion that is not eaten will decay and release more phosphate. The food that is eaten will be digested and excreted, releasing yet more phosphates.

I have measured a single cube (I don't recall the brand off hand) increase phosphate by .03 within one hour on a similarly sized system, multiply that by two and your increasing it by .06, do that seven times a week and the phosphate level will have increased by .42 over a week. Due to the almost instantaneous increase in phosphate levels, it is almost assuredly due to the gel binder used on most, but not all frozen cube type foods. This is not even accounting for the other food that he is feeding, or his base line phosphate level.

I'll say it once again, all food, all of it, every brand, type, style and flavor has phosphates in ...organic chemistry dictates it so.

 

[Killerdrgn]

I'll say it once again, all food, all of it, every brand, type, style and flavor has phosphates in ...organic chemistry dictates it so.

Like i was saying he's stating he's doing 50% water changes a week, that should automatically reduce the number in half. Plus whatever algea growth he has in his tank, which looks like alot, should also absorb phosphates.

You see from his water parameters this is not just a phosphate problem, he still has ammonia and nitrites. 100 Lb of LR and 100 LB of LS should turn those numbers to 0.

 

[Deanos]

True, but there are those that don't always run them, and then there are also those people that don't have skimmers or any other mechanical filter in their system.

How are these people exporting nutrients after feeding so heavily it clouds the water, without a skimmer or mechanical filter? Sheesh....I could sell my skimmer :Up_to_som

 

[Domboski]

Have you checked the sump and cheato? there might be decaying matter in that part of the system. At this point in time your rock and sand should make your ammonia and nitrite reading a big fat 0. Coral can live with a little nitrate, so much so that some in europe actually dose nitrate, but a little ammonia or nitrite is an absolute no go. You may want to find some way of adding more rock to your system or temporarily adding a wet dry filter. something to make the ammonia and nitrite go away. Plus if your using rodi water where would the phospates be coming from.

This might be an important question in answering your problems, where did you get your rock and sand from? what kind of sand and rock is it?

I'm running into a meeting but I am going to do my best to answer all of your questions.

The roch was purchased live (over 400lbs). I actually killed most of it by storing it in my garage in rubbermade containers. after 6 months. I added them as I started the new tank. After severeal weeks even a few eeeks after cycling, I started to add livestock. The sand is standard coarse sand that at one time was taken from a beach on LI. Roughly 4 years ago. It has been used in several tanks including my dwarf seahorse tank which had no water param problems.

 

[Domboski]

I don't believe I am over feeding. As soon as I turn the powerheads back on after feeding the seahorses, what ever is left floats back up off the sand is either eaten or out the overflow and caught on a polypad which is changed weekly. The flakes I add are seriously just a pinch and all is consumed.

 

[Killerdrgn]

How are these people exporting nutrients after feeding so heavily it clouds the water, without a skimmer or mechanical filter? Sheesh....I could sell my skimmer :Up_to_som

Water changes, Massive amounts of Live rock, Main tank DSB, RDSB, Water resevoirs, Refugiums, mangroves, Cleaning crews, etc. The amount of food your adding to a system should eventually peter out to how much is being taken out of a system through water changes and other means. It does not just keep building up to off the chart levels.

There are other schools of though that say real world ocean skimming really doesn't do much as it just sits on the beach until high tide which then just absorbs the nutrients back into the water.

 

[meschaefer]

Like i was saying he's stating he's doing 50% water changes a week, that should automatically reduce the number in half.

You are absolutely right, but if he is adding .42 a week, and doing 50% that leaves him with .21, lets say his macro algae is removing 1/2 of that for arguments sake, now it is .1 that is left over. And remember that is .42 just from the gel binder in two cubes of food, and doesn't account for the actual food itself which will add much more. In a relatively short time he will have very high phosphate levels.

the reading of ammonia and nitrite also indicate overfeeding,e more that goes into the fish, the more that comes out, the more fish in the tank ..... Perhaps overfeeding is the wrong way to look at it as the fish might need it, and the gel binders found in the cubed food, well gel binder is not food.

 

[jhale]

I'm sorry I glanced over your parameters and missed the ammonia and nitrites.
This is troubling, I would do as house suggests and verify the figures with some other test kits. Those levels should be, and need to be 0.

I've not used the ASM G3, but if it's larger than the reef devil then it won't hurt.

Go back to using GFO's as stated till you can bring the Po4 down.

Can you clarify what happened to the rock for 6 months in the garage?
Were you cooking it, or was is sitting in an empty container, or stagnant water?

How long has the tank been set up? Rock will typically leach Po4 if not cooked, but this should subside well within a year.

 

[Killerdrgn]

I'm running into a meeting but I am going to do my best to answer all of your questions.

The rock was purchased live (over 400lbs). I actually killed most of it by storing it in my garage in rubbermade containers. after 6 months. I added them as I started the new tank. After severeal weeks even a few eeeks after cycling, I started to add livestock. The sand is standard coarse sand that at one time was taken from a beach on LI. Roughly 4 years ago. It has been used in several tanks including my dwarf seahorse tank which had no water param problems.

Ok after you were finished cycling did you test to see what the ammonia and nitrites were at that point?
Who or where did you get the rock from? Are you sure they were not using tap water?
Are you sure the beach you got the sand from was not heavily polluted as area beaches are pretty bad and you should probably not take anything from there, off the top of my head theres mercury, cadmium, phosphorus, PCB's in the water and sand. The level of saturation depends on where you exactly picked it up.

 

[Killerdrgn]

You are absolutely right, but if he is adding .42 a week, and doing 50% that leaves him with .21, lets say his macro algae is removing 1/2 of that for arguments sake, now it is .1 that is left over. And remember that is .42 just from the gel binder in two cubes of food, and doesn't account for the actual food itself which will add much more. In a relatively short time he will have very high phosphate levels.

the reading of ammonia and nitrite also indicate overfeeding,e more that goes into the fish, the more that comes out, the more fish in the tank ..... Perhaps overfeeding is the wrong way to look at it as the fish might need it, and the gel binders found in the cubed food, well gel binder is not food.

Yeah but it'll peter out if .42 goes in every week and half comes out every week, eventually when the level reaches 0.84 his water change will bring it back down to .42 and he adds it back in and then changes the water again it'll still be at .42. So maximum level is .84 and min will be .42. And he already stated that he does not feed heavy. So there is a high probability that there is something else going on here. Plus with elevated ammonia levels the bacteria should be reproducing like crazy from all the excess food to convert to nitrite, and from the elevated nitrite those bacteria should have a bloom so it would go back down to 0. The elevated levels indicate that the bacteria are not doing their jobs for some reason.

 

[Killerdrgn]

Wait actually heres another important question, are you doing these tests after an event of some kind like a feeding or a water change, or stirring your sand bed?
Try to redo the tests when you know there hasn't been much of a change in your aquarium. Like after 1 day of not feeding, not having the lights on, etc or something. Just something to get a baseline approach to this.

 

[Domboski]

Hi guys. This is great information.

The sand was taken as soon as the Army Corps of engineers dropped. I know that doesn't help but that's all I know. I am not a newbie at cycling tanks and keeping marine aquariums just reefs. All parameters were zero at one point including rediculous growth in some corals that have slowed down. The Ammonia reading is misleading. It is ZERO. The test kit (salifert) has a lowest reading of less than .25. I have used two other test kits Red Sea and something else that I know are not the most reliable but also read ZERO. I know the difference between using Tap water and RO/DI. I have two TDS meters. I only use RO/DI and constantly check parameters. In fact, I had a bad membrane once and started a thread here that resulted in that find.

The rocks sat in an empty bucket for those six months and were rinsed off in RO/DI water.

Here is the main concern for me, I have an OCTOPUS and SEAHORSES in this tank. They should be showing signs of distress and they are not. The seahorses have been inthis syetm over a year and the Octo's have been in it for al most 2 months if not then more. These two species need pristine water to survive and they are thriving. Thsi is why I am confused.

I did not check params after feeding or after I stirred the sand bed BUT you hit on something interesting...... One of my Koralia's constantly is moving sand near one of my rocks (this has been recent). I repositioned my powerheads because I became paranoid that food was sitting on the ground as I had an algae breakout. A weird algae, it looked alot like a brown dust that would sit on the glass but could easily be blown off. I don't know the history of the sand other than I have had it for 3+ years and it was taken from the ocean.

 

[ShaunW]

Here is the main concern for me, I have an OCTOPUS and SEAHORSES in this tank. They should be showing signs of distress and they are not. The seahorses have been inthis syetm over a year and the Octo's have been in it for al most 2 months if not then more. These two species need pristine water to survive and they are thriving. Thsi is why I am confused.

The idea of pristine water can be confusing.

There are many states of pristine, while I don't dissagree that these two species require great water conditions, usually calcifying corals require even greater quality water.

I had a mixed tank for a long time, but during 3 years of keeping SPS in a mixed tank, I never obtained the color and the growth that others were achieving (Rich Jackson's tank comes immediately to mind). I believe that if you want to keep calcifying corals health equal to that of their natural state you really need to set up an appropiate biotype just for them! Once I removed the leathers, anemones, etc from my mixed tank, the SPS/hard corals exploded!

BTW on test kits, ammonia should be zero, nitrate = zero, and phosphate as low as possible (undetectable using standard kits). As your coral population increased then the allowable nitrate concentration can increase due to symbiotic bacteria and zoox using it for energy.

Increased coral population = increased zoox population = increased bacterial population (symbiotic and non) = increased N source usage.

 

[ellebelle]

Dom,

I agree with the person who suggested you might want to remove your fuge all together. You can get detritus and things trapped in the rocks in your fuge and these can break down and increase your nutrient levels. A lot of people have reported a drop in both nitrates and phosphates with the removal of the fuge. Just something you might want to try.

 

[drperetz]

...i

I believe its Dom's sand constantly being sifted by several animals which can disturb the preeminent of water parameters:lol_large.

 

[Domboski]

Thanks to all. I guess the part I am struggling with is obviously everyone has different systems and success in using these different set ups. What is best for me? The Internet is a great source of information but it also is a source of bad and contradicting information. I've read refugiums are good and it certainly makes sense. But it also makes sense that Detritus gets caught up and that is why I created a polypad filter system before water entered the fuge.

Everyone has provided a lot of useful information and ideas that I need to explore. Having considered everyone's feedback I think the first thing I am going to do is double check my water params the way Jim recommended. I have a sneaky suspicion my params are not as bad as they tested with my kits (at least I hope so). Solbby makes a good point about water conditions too. Honestly, I am completely content on keeping soft corals and if it seems plate corals are out of my capabilities, I will stay away and keep at what I do best and focus on the fish and inverts. After checking the params I will start using my phosphate reactors and see how this works out too.

Thanks again to everyone for your input. If anything else comes to mind please post it here.

 

[Domboski]

After reading this over again it seems the next steps I need to take are:

1- Test water with someone else's kiy
2- Assuming a level of phosphates is detected, consider removing fuge and adding phosphate reactors.
3- Change out the skimmer for the G3 (going to happen no matter what)

Thanks again to everyone. This was extremely helpful.

Dom

 

[KathyC]

I'll bring both sets of my test kits & the Hanna meter when I come over.
Don't forget to test a batch of freshly made up SW too


Does anyone know if the temp of the water plays any role in test results?

 

[Killerdrgn]

try a before and after with the fuge. If you have a poly pad before the fuge and the cheato or whatever algae it is doesn't get detrius trapped in it, theoretically there should be a rise in both phosphates and nitrates.
Oh and one other question are you sure your algae isn't melting away in the fuge? If it gets too packed the parts not getting light may start to melt away and decay.

 

[Killerdrgn]

I'll bring both sets of my test kits & the Hanna meter when I come over.
Don't forget to test a batch of freshly made up SW too


Does anyone know if the temp of the water plays any role in test results?

It shouldn't make too much of a difference, unless your talking about a huge difference in temperature, i.e swing from 82 degrees to 72 degrees(which would be bad anyways). It should all be within an acceptable range.