Petco

[dizzy]

Speaking of the devil. :twisted: :lol:

 

[Fozza]

geez, I already stated my point several times. I won't be stating it again. If you didn't get it, then thats fine by me. Just shut up about it now and get back onto the real topic.

 

[clarionreef]

Harangue,
What do you expect when you basically tell serious fish dealers that they are inevitable collateral damage and destined for the ash heap because they can't kill as many fish and lose as much money doing it as the high financed industrial pet shops?
Nice point...and offensive as well. So the struggle to survive will get harder and all the while a fellow fish person tells everyone to stop whining and get over it.
What do you do for fun besides play computer games and cartoons? Go to intensive care wards at the local hospital and whisper into the patients ear...".psstt, you're not gonna make it...".
Thanks for reminding us how lightly regarded we are by some in the customer base.
"Resistance is futile...Darwin was right. "
Ohh boy. What a belief system...what an intellect!
Let me guess. Play station, aquarium and computer all in the same rumpus room.
Steve

 

[Money Pit]

They have this sense of entitlement that is very unbecoming

Dizzy you just described AMDA.

A thread about Petco has turned into another pity party for AMDA members. Sounds more like the "old" AMDA to me. AMDA, we all work hard in our perspective business' to make ends meet, especially those of us in Southern California who pay $800,000 for a 2000 square foot house.

BTW I'm not sure that Wal-Mart offers it's employees any benefits, and I doubt any own a home on their Wal-Mart salaries. In Arkansas maybe, but not here.

Great LFS's like AC have nothing to fear from Petco as a matter of fact Mike has mentioned to me that Petco has increased his business.
If you run a shi**y LFS that charges way too much for fish and dry goods and feels it's entitled to customers, guess what you're going to have a hard time staying in business with or without Petco. I hope that Petco does well. They employ a lot of people who depend on them for their livelihood.

 

[Anonymous]

MP, I so wish you knew what you were talking about when it comes to Petco. :| Why on earth would you think someone could make a living working at a Petco retail store (or be better able to pay the mortgage/rent than working for Walmart)?

For the record, my beefs have nothing to do with AMDA, the viability of the LFS vs. Petco, or how they treat their employees (I'm already too familiar with that, thank you very much). It has to do with the wanton disregard for the impact on the living creatures they take under their collective wing that I saw firsthand, and don't believe has changed one iota.

 

[dizzy]

Great LFS's like AC have nothing to fear from Petco as a matter of fact Mike has mentioned to me that Petco has increased his business.
If you run a shi**y LFS that charges way too much for fish and dry goods and feels it's entitled to customers, guess what you're going to have a hard time staying in business with or without Petco. I hope that Petco does well. They employ a lot of people who depend on them for their livelihood.

Money Pit you really need to go back to the start of this thread and read it all through. We pet stores have something to fear if the valuable fish supply is needlessly wasted. You simply can't cookie cutter out more blue tangs to replace the ones that being slaughtered. My point is that you can't industrialize this industry to the where a 600-store chain is going to have quality personel at all the locations. Sure they help certain stores in the short term by their incompetence, but the slaughter of the livestock will hasten the end of our industry for all of us. There are definitely good stores, but finding people who don't tire of doing mundance maintenance chores, while dealing with a whinny public is increasingly difficult. It's a serious Catch 22 my friend. Smart people don't want to work that hard for that kind of pay for very long. I'm guessing your a young guy. I'm 54 and I've seen the quality of the work force go South. I just don't believe you can hand over prosperity on a silver platter. It has to be earned to be appreciated and I can see the cracks in the foundation. We can't just keep bringing in Hispanic workers to do our jobs for us because we are too good or too lazy to do them ourselves. If Petco adopts this as a chainwide strategy it will be very sad news for marine livestock. Now go back and read this thread from the beginning so you can make more informed posts.

 

[Fozza]

BTW I'm not sure that Wal-Mart offers it's employees any benefits, and I doubt any own a home on their Wal-Mart salaries. In Arkansas maybe, but not here.

I can't say for sure where your at, but here, they offer a nice benefits package. The pay itself is very poor. But they have full medical and dental. Of course you have to be a full-time employee (over 32hrs a week). My mother in-law works for them, specifically for the benefits.

(don't take that as a flame of any kind, I'm just pointing it out.)

 

[Anonymous]

If you're working long hours its to make a decent living, end of story. It doesn't matter WHAT you're doing. (My record week is 132 hours with one day off to catch up on sleep - go do the math, I'll wait....... - I still only brought home the same teensy little paycheck I always do - barely enough to put me over $40K / yr and this is something I've been doing professionally since I was 13 and I'm damn good at it..)

You could just as easily work at McDonalds and have a 1-bedroom apartment with 16 roommates and ride the bus or walk back and forth to work and have over 3/4's of the day to get drunk and screw off.

As for sympathy, what do you expect? - You're getting paid to do what many of us would like to be able to. - You'd better expect some level of envy over sympathy. :wink:

 

[dizzy]

Look when the cow runs dry you can still squeeze on the teats all you want. But you won't get any more milk, and you're liable to get kicked in the head. :lol:

 

[Money Pit]

Why on earth would you think someone could make a living working at a Petco retail store (or be better able to pay the mortgage/rent than working for Walmart)?

I never even came close to suggesting that anyone could make a better living working for Petco over Walmart. I merely stated that Petco "employs a lot of people (over 15,000) who depend on them for their livelihood". People do make their living working at PetCO, I'm I wrong?
FYI here are a few benefits that Petco offers to it's employes;
< 401(k) Retirement Plan - Company match is $.50 per $1.00 contributed up to 6%
< Medical Plans (full-time and part-time associates)
< Dental Plans (full-time and part-time associates)
< Paid Time Off (PTO) - Paid days off to use for vacation, sickness or personal time (associates working 20 hours or more/week)
< Discounted Child Care
to name a few...

BTW I think it's great that Walmart gives it's employes benefits.

It has to do with the wanton disregard for the impact on the living creatures....

I think that pretty much describes the industry as a whole. How many fish and corals would you guess die everyday so we can continue to enjoy the hobby? This hobby has a huge impact on the oceans and reefs and to point out Petco as the only one who has a "wanton disregard for the impact of the living creatures" is pure hypocrisy on your part as well as anyone who participates in this hobby and especially those who make their living in the industry.

Dizzy,
I've read the thread and I understand your corcern for your livihood, but don't hide your monetary concern behind the facade that Petco (last week it was www.liveaquaria.com) is worse for the oceans and reefs then AMDA and it's members. Let's face it the hobby itself is bad for the oceans. Perhaps someone in the importing business can give us an idea of how many fish and corals are rapped from the reefs each year and of that number how many die.
Petco has room for improvement as does the entire industry.

 

[insearch]

Just went in the prtco yesterday. It is not looking well. the front 2 systems that had all the tangs and triggers are all cleaned out. I overheard employees talking about an ich problem that wiped out those front 2 tanks. They have all there sps corals in tanks with very low lighting. everything in the place looks like it is degenerating. Most of all the other tanks are cloudy. Even the employees are complaining about the conditions in the store. I do not think they will be doing this as a standard in all there stores bc they are going to loose a big buck. And best thing was it was like a ghost town in there.

 

[dizzy]

I've read the thread and I understand your corcern for your livihood, but don't hide your monetary concern behind the facade that Petco (last week it was www.liveaquaria.com) is worse for the oceans and reefs then AMDA and it's members. Petco has room for improvement as does the entire industry.

MP,
I want you to read this very slowly and carefully. Several times if you need to, but make sure you understand the following: I'm not concerned about my livelyhood. Honestly I have all that I need and have far exceeded my expectations when I opened my store. I'm concerned about the well being of the livestock at Petco. Look I clocked it off just for you. Petco is exactly .4 miles from our store and they've been there for several years. They can't stomp us out and they can't make us run. I don't bad mouth them when the customers come in complaining, nor do I tolerate it from my employees. If doing so in this public forum makes the powers that be clean up their act, I can take some satifaction in knowing that I helped save some marinelife. I think the "insearch" post helps to explain some of my concerns, as I know full well how difficult it can be to keep everything healthy and doing well. If Petco decides not to go into marinelife in a big way it does not mean there will be massive layoffs and families will be going without food. The one here really took away our dog food and dog supplies sales. But not to worry life goes on.

The good doctors are prolly the lesser of the two evils imho. They don't warehouse the animals so they prolly kill considerably less. I met the two liveaquaria experts at the last MACNA, pretty nice guys actually and they have real livestock handling experince in their backgrounds, but it wasn't Race and Marty. 8O I've been checking out their prices lately and it would be totally unfair to say they are deep discounting livestock. :wink: These guys found a way to take advantage of the situation and I don't really fault them for it. It also doesn't mean I won't work with my fellow AMDA members to gain back the advantages they have taken away.

The bottom line is that you should support the places you want to see do well. If Petco pushes your buttons then go for it. Same with the good doctors. I don't etail for pretty much the same reasons that Glenn as laid out. We don't even use our web site to drive sales because I'm not interested in seeing how much marine livestock we can push out the door. I realize it's a hard concept for many of you to grasp, but I done told you I didn't get into this business cause I wanted to rich, and that's the truth.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Look, Mitch, he didn't bother to read the first pages of the thread (otherwise he wouldn't be posting to me what Petco offers its employees), and it seems that we may all be rather set in our opinions. Honestly, I'm one of the few whose opinion regarding Petco, who they are and aren't good for, etc., is based entirely on personal experience and direct knowledge.

Btw, I've called two of my closest local Petco stores, and they have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention the new aquatics systems. How's THAT for keeping your employees informed and up to date? :roll:

 

[JennM]

Let me try to explain this a little better for Fozza. I know quite a few lfs owners that actually earn a decent living. The reason they earn a decent living is that they work 70 plus hours per week. ******snip*****
Do we want to be paid for working all those hours? DAMN RIGHT WE DO. It doesn't however mean we get into this business because we think it is the short cut to easy street. Anybody that can earn a living in this industry could earn a living doing something else. If the truth were known most of us could make more money for less work in other professions. We could damn sure could have more time at home with our families. After typing all this I just realized I really don't know what your point was Fozza. :? Anyway I hope this explains things from at least this lfs owners perspective.
Mitch

PS
If your at work and your not the owner, then you probably should get off this site and back to work.
The boss.

Bravo Mitch!

You've summed it up most eloquently.

And for what it's worth - I don't draw a wage from my shop (yet) because I've opted to re-invest it all back in. 2 years after opening the doors, we've doubled in size and are about to start in freshwater too (we are just marine at the moment.)

My husband has a "real job" which pays for the house and car and truck.

I always marvel at how so many people on these boards, begrudge the LFS owner for actually expecting to *make* money. Do you think we do this expecting to lose money forever, or do it just for our good health? Do you go to work each day NOT to make a living? Turning a profit is not evil - in fact it's necessary to survive. How many of you would go to work every day for free? Then why do you expect a LFS owner to? Everybody wants top quality everything and service with a smile, for the cheapest price -- yeah WalMart has the cheapest prices, but try getting service. At our local WalMart (which I've been boycotting for about 2 years now), I couldn't even get the "greeter" *cough* to make eye contact, let alone "greet" me. Just what do they pay her for? Once when I complained to the manager about something, I was told that this particular Wal-Mart has an annual turnover rate of 110% - I can't even fathom that. Any large chain store of any type is likely to be similar - it's just a fact of big (anonymous) business.

The point that so many seem to be missing is the SOUL of a LFS versus a chain store. Yeah a few people jump into the biz because they saw a tranship list with fish for "pennies" and saw big dollar signs... not factoring in any of the costs that Glenn so concisely mapped out. They throw up their shingle and fill their tanks, and if they aren't business savvy, they are gone in a couple of years, leaving a trail of bad checks behind them. Those people would probably fail no matter what business they chose to be in.

The "typical" Mom and Pop owner does this because they love what they do - and if they plan, they realize that this is not the way to a fast buck, but if they do it right, it's the way to a reasonable living, doing something they enjoy. Some realize that once a hobby becomes a "job" it's not so fun anymore - and yes they become disillusioned. Many choose to avoid these boards, not because they wish to remain ignorant, but it's damned demoralizing to see people slamming us every day. We sure don't do it for the ego boost.

Personally, I get as much of a thrill out of somebody coming into my shop and seeing something really neat, and leaving with an appreciation for Nature, as I do when somebody drops $$$ on a system. THAT is why I do this instead of working at the grocery store. I made more money when I worked at the grocery store (or the courier service, or the income tax office, or the golf course, or any of the other hats I've worn over the years) and the hours were better, but I enjoy this much more. Luckily my choices in life gave me lots of small business experience so I knew what to expect when I took this plunge - others are not so lucky and sometimes they bite off more than they can chew.

The issue at hand (bringing this back ON topic *g*) is that among other issues, the prevailing sentiment I am feeling is that a mega-corporation being run by bean-counters, can't possibly duplicate the heart and soul of the mom and pop LFS - sure they can have all the latest technology, all the buying power, and the backing of shareholders to finance it all, but it won't amount to a hill of beans without the heart that a small shop puts into it. Never seeing the same clerk twice because of shifts/turnover, you can't get the same in-depth service that a mom and pop can give. The attitude is totally different.

The value that I give my customers versus PetCo, Etail or anything else, is that when they come in, I know their name, their tank, and I can be of helpful assistance to pick out suitable tank mates, foods and whatever else they might need/want. Thankfully, many people understand and appreciate the value in that, and in buying fish and corals that were ethically caught/harvested/propagated.

 

[John_Brandt]

I've read the thread and I understand your corcern for your livihood, but don't hide your monetary concern behind the facade that Petco (last week it was www.liveaquaria.com) is worse for the oceans and reefs then AMDA and it's members. Let's face it the hobby itself is bad for the oceans. Perhaps someone in the importing business can give us an idea of how many fish and corals are rapped from the reefs each year and of that number how many die.
Petco has room for improvement as does the entire industry.

It is possible that the marine aquarium hobby is the last chance there is to save coral reefs in many impoverished island nations and coastal areas. The monetary value of marine ornamental species for the hobby is manyfold greater than that of similar food fisheries and for carbonate rock for construction. Responsible ornamental fishers can expect a continually renewable natural resource that has the potential to provide a greater income than almost any other means available. The incentive to preserve coral reefs when they provide a good living is not lost on most of the native peoples. Collecting that is done in a sustainable and gentle way is not harmful to reefs.

Hobbyists should not feel ashamed to purchase wild-caught marine ornamentals that have been harvested from managed reefs by sustainable means. Your purchases can actually ensure the continued local value and protection of these resources.

There are organizations devoted to bringing about changes that will improve the sustainability of the marine ornamental industry. The goal is to never be able to point at any dealer and suggest that they are a detriment to the hobby or the reefs. We are not there yet, but good people worldwide are working on it.

You can see some import/export statistics for marine ornamentals by species here at the Global Marine Aquarium Database: http://www.unep-wcmc.org/index.html . Mortality statistics are not yet available, but may be in the future.

 

[fishfanatic2]

John's right, the marine hobby is probly one of the most blamed causes for the declining fish populations but actually one of the least responsible causes. If anything, the research into captive rearing of marin fishes and corals and ways to care for them could very well prove extremely useful in the near future. :wink:

 

[Money Pit]

SM,
I did read the first page, and I understand you have had personal experience working with Petco. However you asked a question, "Why on earth would you think someone could make a living working at a Petco", I answered your question and I'll answer it again, P e o p l e d o m a k e t h e i r l i v i n g w o r k i n g a t P e t C O (I typed it slowly for you). I don't see how you could dispute this, maybe not the kind of living you are use to, but a living never the less.

And Dizzy,

I'm not concerned about my livelihood.... I'm concerned about the well being of the livestock at Petco

Hmmm... let's recap.

If you don't think Petco will use muscle to gain an advantage over lfs you got another think coming.

I think they're only interested in going into communities where the mom and pops are doing good business.

As a long time brick and mortar retailer I'm certainly no fan of Petco or the suppliers who helped them gain market advantage.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I will once again remind the other brick and mortars that they should really consider joining the new AMDA.

Why not be concerned about all the animals that are plucked out of the ocean only to die in transit or in some smucks tank. Read the forum dizzy, hundreds of fish die each month in the hands of the hobbists that you and others like you sell to. Where is the concern. PetCo is an obvious target for you because they are your competition. Get over it, it's called a free market. I'm sorry but I see right through your crocodile tears. As I have said before, Petco has room for improvement as does the entire industry.

BTW for one so concerned about the fish holocaust I would think you would support legislation to shut down the importation of marine wildlife.

 

[dizzy]

BTW for one so concerned about the fish holocaust I would think you would support legislation to shut down the importation of marine wildlife.

Look MP I agree with everything John Brandt just said. I think shutting down the marine industry would have the opposite effect you think it would. Note: Read John's post. I think marine livestock can be harvested in a sustainable manner, but we are currently not even close. I see the ocean as the perfect nursery. I'll also inform you that all the members of the AMDA BOD want a sustainable industry. Even if the harvest is sustainable it doesn't mean that I like or accept the needless slaughter of the marinelife. Here's another one you probably won't be able to grasp, but we actually talk many people out of saltwater and steer them toward a freshwater tank. Even if they didn't sell animals at all, I prolly wouldn't be a big fan of Petco. The greedy profit driven corps and their arrogant CEOs just don't do it for me somehow. With uniformed newbies and appologists like you, there really isn't any insentive for them to change now is there?
Mitch

 

[JennM]

Money Pit - are all stores created equal? Size notwithstanding, do you really believe that every dealer along every link in the chain of custody, has total and utter disregard for the specimens they sell?

The DIFFERENCE between an anonymous conglomerate, and a caring LFS is one will typically bag up an number and combination of fishes you can point at. The other will ask you questions about your setup, or will have intimate knowledge of your setup, and will help you NOT make stupid mistakes.

Yes if we have particpated in the hobby and the trade, we all have blood on our hands. Just as anybody who has ever eaten a hamburger or chicken sandwich does.

When a fish or coral or invert leaves the ocean, as far as the ocean is concerned, it's DEAD. Matters not to the reef whether the creature lives a day, a week or a decade.

Do you think it matters to Petco if your fish lasts a day, a week, a decade? Nope. They are not in business to nurture the hobby, the are in business to SELL. They have taken into consideration that they will likely have (high) mortality, it's simply a COGS factor.

With hundreds of stores potentially becoming "Home Depot" of fishes, several things happen...

A finite supply becomes depleted. Ask anybody who's tried to get blue tangs lately - there are certain times of year when they just aren't available, or are very scarce. So a small supply gets sucked up by the big buyer (Petco) and the mom and pop who deals with the same importer is SOL. As a Mom and Pop who just brings in a few boxes each week, versus dozens at larger stores, that's a concern for me. I can't combat this by ordering 100 boxes of fish...

Those same fish that got hoovered up by the big buyer, are left to languish in deplorable conditions, effectively they are wasted.

It's like catching a boatload of tuna and letting it rot on the dock - the ocean knows it's gone... but the market knows it went to waste. Keep letting it rot on the dock instead of canning it and selling it, and the supply dwindles and the price goes up. The fisherman who catches something else too, will survive... the one who depended solely on the tuna won't.

Same applies here. The big box has all that dog food to fall back on... the mom and pop, esp., the aquatics only store, has little to fall back on.

I'm not so naive to think that each week fish don't languish in bad LFS tanks, or bad wholesaler tanks (I've seen a few of those too...). They die all through the chain of custody. If you have a problem with that, DESPITE BEST EFFORTS to keep them alive and healthy, then you shouldn't be in this hobby or trade. There is a difference between losses incurred despite best efforts, and wonton disregard for them by lack of care.

The alarming factor is the magnitude. This isn't one bad LFS ordering 3 boxes of fish a week, this is hundreds of stores ordering thousands of boxes... bad enough as it is now, it becomes worse when multiplied.

As sad as it sounds, Insearch's post today was somewhat comforting - if it looks so bad, so fast, perhaps it will lose too much money to be a viable option. One can hope...

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

The best analogy I can come up with is the restaurant industry. Olive Garden sells a lot of lasagna, doesn't mean it's anywhere close to real Italian food. A locally owned restaurant is world's apart (eben though they also want to make money). But the value added to the product is huge. Over priced slop at the chain, gourmet home cooked for the same price at the local. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a fair share of greasy spoon diners out there either. Would anyone think it a good thing if all of the locally owned restaurants were run out by national chains?