Petco

[Fozza]

And for what it's worth - I don't draw a wage from my shop (yet) because I've opted to re-invest it all back in. 2 years after opening the doors, we've doubled in size and are about to start in freshwater too (we are just marine at the moment.)

My husband has a "real job" which pays for the house and car and truck.

I always marvel at how so many people on these boards, begrudge the LFS owner for actually expecting to *make* money. Do you think we do this expecting to lose money forever, or do it just for our good health?

You've prooved my point without even knowing it.

And it seems for some people who can't get it into their damn heads, that I have to repeat myself and say what my point is.

My point is - Every LFS, goes into business looking to make "money". (Whether their making it right now, or in the future!)

Understand so far?

It was in response to someone saying very early on in the thread, that LFS' owners don't start up businesses looking to make "money".

Still with me?

I agree that most, possibly all, have a passion for fishkeeping, and thats what initiates their interest in making a fish store. I'm not saying it isn't! But they are still in it for (yes you got it) "the money"!

With me still?

I dont "begrudge" you for making money, good luck to you with it. It was a reply to a post stating LFS' owners dont start their businesses to make money, which you damn well do. So I stated you do. But you can't seem to get your twisted little minds around this small statement.

And for me to get insults over a statement which is true is rediculous.

 

[Money Pit]

I'm not talking just about LFS's but the industry as a whole. Importers wholesalers and so on.

John, with all do respect, and I do respect your opinions, I can't buy into the argument that the reefs are better off because of this hobby. If the monatary incentive for rapping the reefs was removed the government would move in to protect the reefs for other potential uses, like diving. I believe that there is so much money generated by the trade that the government is easily paid to turn a blind eye to collection methods that are extremely harmful to the reefs especially in the Philippines.

Thanks for the link, it looks like 15 per cent of fish die during and immediately after collection, another 10 per cent die during transit and a further 5 per cent in holding facilities. Factor in another 5 per cent at LFS's and at least that number in the hands of hobbists and we are talking about 40 percent of the 6 million fish and inverts imported die so we can enjoy the pretty fish in our tanks. Forget Petco, 1.8 million (based on 30%) fish and inverts die before they even make it to the retail stores. I can't find the stats for corals. That seems like a reason to be concerned.

 

[Money Pit]

Dizzy,

BTW I'm no apologist. I am only pointing out the hypocrisy that is the AMDA. Petco has the right to do business just like you do. What they are doing is no different then what you and your members do. If you are going to argue animal cruelty it is only fair to point out the holocaust that you not only participate in everyday but profit from. I see you go on the attack of your compitetion with no regard to the numerous LFS's that kill just as many fish, if not more then PetCo ever could when all is added up. And you welcome with open arms those that sell silly (I think the words "scam" and "snake oil" have been used) products, as long as they send you a check for their membership. You and your orginization are truly hypocrites IMHO.

I am still boycotting all AMDA members, all 3 of them :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

incentive for rapping the reefs

<funky back-beat>

I dove to da reef to get me some CORAL,
Some people-in-da-house told me it was A-MORAL.
So I dove to the reef to get me a NEMO,
And da people-in-da-house went and cursed the BAM-BINO.

</funky back-beat>



Peace,

Chip

 

[JennM]

I agree that most, possibly all, have a passion for fishkeeping, and thats what initiates their interest in making a fish store. I'm not saying it isn't! But they are still in it for (yes you got it) "the money"!

With me still?

I dont "begrudge" you for making money, good luck to you with it. It was a reply to a post stating LFS' owners dont start their businesses to make money, which you damn well do. So I stated you do. But you can't seem to get your twisted little minds around this small statement.

And for me to get insults over a statement which is true is rediculous.

I'm going to ignore your hostility issues out of respect for the moderators, but some anger management courses might be in order... :roll:

You've proved my point too - that a small faction (VERY SMALL, I might add) has a huge chip on their shoulder because one does go into business hoping to make a living in this trade. The overwhelming anger and inflammatory nature of your post (bashing the post here, not the poster, mods ) proves to me how upsetting this is to you.

Clearly - VERY clearly, those people who gripe and moan about LFS this and that are not business owners themselves. They have never walked a mile in an owner's shoes and they are still either having everything handed to them by Mommy and Daddy OR they are just used to drawing a paycheck for putting in their time. Put your own money where your mouth is, and we'll see how you feel afterward. That's not sour grapes, that's just reality, friends. When you are on the other side of the fence, you might see things a bit differently.

The point I think you've missed by picking the sliver out of my eye, whilst ignoring the log in yours, is that nobody who is realistic, goes into this type of business expecting to make LOTS of money. Yeah best case scenario we make a comfortable living (and what's wrong with that anyway?). I really only know one individual who "got rich" from it but he spent his career building stores from the ground up, or turning around mediocre stores and flipping them for profit. Great businessman.

It's really all about priorities. For me (and dare I speak for many LFS owners?) is the the PRIMARY motivation is love of the hobby. Money is a secondary (and NECESSARY) consideration. They come from a place in their heart and soul where they love the hobby and want to share that love with others. That is the essence of the hobby - the money part is a ncessary evil. I've known store owners who would do it for free if they could... and some have, by virtue of the fact that their enterprises lost money...

Do you s'pose that the bean-counters at Petco got on there because they love fish, or herps or fuzzies? Not in the exec office. Perhaps the kid that dips the fish, or cleans the fuzzies does -- but as Mitch said, many get into it because of an "idea" but when they actually have to get down and dirty and clean it up... novelty wears off.

I get a real kick out of the kids that come in for jobs to my shop. Have YET to have one bring in a resume. Young men wearing backward ball caps and pants with crotch to their knees with their underwear hanging off their @$$, or young women with tongue piercing compromising their ability to speak, fancy acrylic fingernails and their love handles sticking out of their hip huggers - bellies hanging out of shirts too small and they think that's appealing to a prospective employer? The easy litmus test for those is I ask them to come back and help me clean this protein skimmer... that usually changes their mind PDQ about working a "cushy" job in a fish shop :lol: Try the tanning salon next door - you only have to wipe the oil off the beds after each customer, that's more your speed and you won't get those nails dirty :roll: But I digress..... Mitch hit the nail on the head - it's hard to even find a passionate hobbyist to work in a LFS, so I don't hold out much hope for the big chains to find them and keep them.

It really seems to piss some people off that the $17 you pay for a bag of salt at the LFS might kick a dollar back into the pocket of the store owner or his employee. Or that the $20 for the yellow tang might pay the water bill or the grunt that cleaned the algae out of the tanks.

Ever figure that the half-price watch bought at Walmart still had to pay the wage of the unhappy, underpaid cashier that had to ring it up for you? Some of it paid for the greeter that didn't even push a buggy over your way when you walked in.

That's retail. Every time merchandise changes hands, somebody takes a piece of the pie.

For what it's worth, Petco will sell thoudsands of $10 Mandarins to unsuspecting newbs to pay their staff and several here have no problem with that at all, just as long as it's cheaper than the place down the road. ORA clowns wasted, Goniopora wasted - lots of disillusioned hobbyists will quit out of sheer frustration before they realize they should find a REAL LFS to buy from, and seek other sources of information. Other LFS in the area might rescue a few before they quit altogether, a small percentage of them may choose etail, but as much as you don't want to admit it, the vast majority of customers still prefer a B&M over a virtual store. People are visual and pictures don't equal seeing the real thing, whether it's hardware or livestock. Disillusioned hobbyists translates to wasted lives, wasted time, wasted money, and a big black eye on an already frowned-upon hobby and industry. Again, the depletion of wild stocks further than they are being depleted now, is a serious threat to all of us, Petco included. When they are gone, they are gone, period.

The hypocricy is really amazing sometimes - there is an almost daily tirade of posts here or wherever, slamming bad advice at LFS, bad conditions at LFS, snake-oil sales at LFS, we could write a whole book on Petco by itself... and now we have a few apologists who can overlook all of that in the worst offender, because if it's cheaper, all else is forgiven. I don't condone bad LFS, but I have to shake my head at the double standard that's regularly applied. Price conquers all and damn the consequences.

Fortunately for the LFS and the trade, the majority of customers do not feel this way, at least not in my experience. For every bargain hunter who cares nothing about the long term viability of his good local store, or the world's ocean resources, there are scores of people who value their stores and support them all they can.

I have found out just how much they appreciate it. Just this week I've had 2 customers volunteer their time and skills to help us with our expansion project - both have said it's because they appreciate what we do and they want to help ensure the long-term viability of our place - the gratitude I've felt from them is overwhelming and it restores my faith in the "general public". Many of my customers have become good friends, and we appreciate everyone's continued support and patronage.

If you have a good store near you, it would behove you to support it in any way you can. Nobody in their right mind begrudges somebody saving a few dollars on this or that, but consider the value added in your local store - particularly when you know you can count on them if your pump fails, if your tank crashes, if you have a sick fish that needs diagnosis/treatment... these are things that etail cannot help you with at all, and Petco is highly unlikely to be able to help you with at all.

Jenn[/b]

 

[JennM]

If the monatary incentive for rapping the reefs was removed the government would move in to protect the reefs for other potential uses, like diving.

Government? What government? Here's a news flash - the rest of the world's governments don't necessarily work like the United States' does.

If we can't create a favourable atmosphere for the local individual to preserve the reefs in his/her front yard, just what makes you think some anonymous "Government" will do it?

Diving? Like tourists? Tourists do incredible damage out of ignorance, and many places are now verboten to divers for that very reason.

The political unrest in some places, coupled with the poverty, won't a tourist trap make, even if that was an option. Do you really think you can make an umpteenth-generation fisherman into a bellhop?

No - waiting for the "Government" to save the reefs is absolutely the last thing to do, particularly in the third world - they have better things to do than worry about coral bleaching or runoff - even though those are pressing issues *to us*, you can't place US standards on everyone.

However, if one can teach the locals who have been collecting, how to do it sustainably and in a manner that is not destructive, it secures their own future, that of their families, and gives THEM a reason to preserve their reefs - their livelihood. It's sort of like the old proverb:

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

Teach him to fish sustainably, and generations to come will thrive.

And if you think that the hobby is nothing but destructive, let me tell you a couple of things...

When I was 12, my mother brought us to Sea World. There I saw my first saltwater tank.. 12' or so tall and who knows how wide... thousands and thousands of gallons. I'd always loved Jacques Cousteau documentaries on TV but that was my first real look. Then I went to the beach and caught hermit crabs and marvelled at them changing shells - let them go again when I was done.

That was what inspired me to learn more, and what later got me into the hobby and then the trade.

I have a young friend - he was 5 when I opened my shop. He came into my store and was totally blown away by all that he saw. At 5, he began reading everything he could - kids books mostly, but if it had a fish in it, he'd read it. Now he's 7. He's reading at a 5th grade level and he's reading books geared to adults, and he can come into my store and tell me all about the creatures I have on display. I believe that this child will grow up to be a marine biologist - because his passion at SUCH a young age, is almost frightening. While he's somewhat of an exception, he's an example of the difference the hobby can make. When somebody sees something unique at a LFS, they may come away with a greater appreciation of the reefs, without actually having seen a real reef. Perhaps next time they go to the beach, they won't toss their litter, or they might think before they step on a coral head... there is a huge ripple effect from this hobby. It's not always readily obvious, but it is definitely there, and waiting for some "government" to save the reefs is foolhardy.

People will save the reefs.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Good stuff Jenn. Your my hero and if I was a normal hobbyist I would be honored to buy from you.

Fozza why don't you go find that post that troubles you so, and put it here at the end of this thread, so we can all have a look see. It seems to me that just maybe you somehow failed to comprehend what it said. I know for a fact you did, if you're referring to one of mine.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

What do you expect when you basically tell serious fish dealers that they are inevitable collateral damage and destined for the ash heap because they can't kill as many fish and lose as much money doing it as the high financed industrial pet shops?

That's not at all what I said. I'll sum it up for you, this time using very small words

1. Mom and Pop pet stores are no more or less noble than petco. They are equal in every way except scope of business (size).

2. I hold mom and pop stores just as responsible for fish deaths, bad advice and horrid tank conditions, railroading new customers into buying pointless expensive stuff, and basically trying to jack a buck out of the fish industry.

3. You are only collateral damage because you refuse to change. I sense a lot of resistance to anything new from LFS owners. If your business closes because you refuse to adapt ... your fault.

4. Anything you say means jack until you stop raping customers for that extra 20% markup. The icing on the cake is how you expect us to thank you for it. LOL. How about I give you a moment of brutal honesty? Money talks, and for all your bashing of internet ordering (no cust srv, possible return issues/damaged goods, etc)... none of that matters. Or maybe a better way to say it is that the extremely low cost of the product matters more. Money talks. You'd think a business owner would realize this.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

give a man a fish store, he posts whiny rants about petco on aquarium hobby sites. *rolls eyes*

 

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of this goes to the heart of the discussion of the larger retail picture in America. I've never seen anyone leave a Walmart or Lowe's angry becuase they were out of stock on something, or actually expect to find an employee who knows when it will be restocked. They have come to expect a low level of personal service, and all ills are forgiven because last week they saved 30% on something. But people come into my shop and take it as a personal slight if I am out of stock on an item, they deman to know exactly when it will be restocked and expect a discount for having to wait. Never mind the fact that the distribution for this industry is horrendously inefficient, to the point where you often don't know what is actually in your shipment until all the boxes are open.

 

[dizzy]

Not good news for the mom and pop shop.

So?

Well here it is for everyone to see again. Hwarang's first brilliant post to this thread. Look Hwarang if you can't handle the answer don't ask the question.

 

[Fozza]

Fine, here we go.

Why does anyone think one business is more or less deserving of your money? Petco and your LFS both exist for profit and no other reason. Otherwise, your LFS owner would just be called a hobbyist.

of which a reply to this was

The guys who started Petco came over from other industries when they saw possible dollar signs. They were not people who got into the pet business because they love animals.

that's actually a pretty good concept, getting into the fish trade <hee!> to make <hee!hee!> MONEY!

of which I asked the question

So let me get this right.

Your saying people are starting up fish store businesses, cause they love aquariums and not to make money?

and got this as a reply

that is the very reason. Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck.

I simply point out thats bull, and that they (LFS') do enter the business due to love of aquariums, but they are also in it to make money.

Then came all the defense and hostility, insults and what have you, about a statement that is correct. Whether you like it or not, its correct.

I weren't slating LFS', I weren't taking sides with Petco, I was pointing out a simple correction.

But for some reason you come out in the defensive and assume I'm begrudging LFS' for making money. Make money! I want you to. Then I can continue in the hobby I love soo much.

And to Jenn specifically, no I don't think anger management classes are in need, not for me anyhow. Repeating myself over and over is not only frustrating, but also annoying.

 

[clarionreef]

Hey Mitch,

These guys are simply defining themselves and acting as chase rabbits and devils advocates. They don't have convictions and between the two of them...only one knows what that means.
What do you say to people as shallow and empty as this? What do you say to people who believe in nothing?
Perhaps nothing is best.
Steve
PS. The 'Darwinist -slash- pseudo-intellectual computer Rambo' dude is my favorite.

 

[Anonymous]

What do you expect when you basically tell serious fish dealers that they are inevitable collateral damage and destined for the ash heap because they can't kill as many fish and lose as much money doing it as the high financed industrial pet shops?

That's not at all what I said. I'll sum it up for you, this time using very small words

1. Mom and Pop pet stores are no more or less noble than petco. They are equal in every way except scope of business (size).

2. I hold mom and pop stores just as responsible for fish deaths, bad advice and horrid tank conditions, railroading new customers into buying pointless expensive stuff, and basically trying to jack a buck out of the fish industry.

3. You are only collateral damage because you refuse to change. I sense a lot of resistance to anything new from LFS owners. If your business closes because you refuse to adapt ... your fault.

4. Anything you say means jack until you stop raping customers for that extra 20% markup. The icing on the cake is how you expect us to thank you for it. LOL. How about I give you a moment of brutal honesty? Money talks, and for all your bashing of internet ordering (no cust srv, possible return issues/damaged goods, etc)... none of that matters. Or maybe a better way to say it is that the extremely low cost of the product matters more. Money talks. You'd think a business owner would realize this.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

give a man a fish store, he posts whiny rants about petco on aquarium hobby sites. *rolls eyes*

OK, I'll give you points one through three for now. Although I'd be willing to bet that the exact same conversation about competition happens in Petco's board rooms weekly. It's just part of business to analyze and contrast yourself with your competition.

With regards to point four, I'm even willing to concede that a poorly run shop should be willing to forgo any extra markup as they are providing no extra service and are offering a below par product. But are you suggesting that a store should just eat the extra costs of doing things the right way? That the extra costs of adding quarantine systems, holding fish for one week, paying extra for fish of higher quality with better handling, going to the airport at midnight and tanking fish until 2am to make sure the aren't in the bags any longer than necessary should come out of the shops pocket and not the customers? That's the kind of thinking that leads to shoddy shops. If there is no monetary incentive for doing the right thing, it won't get done. Not because the owners need to get paid to be ethical,but because the owners need to get paid to stay in business.

The old way of doing things was to keep the prices of the fish and corals and low as possible in order to attract as many people as possible into the hobby, and then cover your operating costs, overhead, and living expenses from the dry goods (hence the bad practice of pushing crappy products and snake oils). With the advent of the net and free shipping, stores are getting more competition across the board on pricing for the dry goods and the snake oils are getting harder to sell (a good thing) as information becomes easier to distribute. This puts pressure on the retailer to find a way to make up the loss of revenue, as the overhead (and the five year lease) needs to be paid each month, as well as the personal bills (car payments and 30yr mortgages). Some stores have gone to the net to sell dry goods in order to make up the revenue, but the extra volume required to cover the margin is difficult to get without also spending more on marketing, so bottom line is doing more work, more time, and dealing with many more customers all for the same amount of money. Would you stay at a job where your boss doubled your work load, and added 10 miles to your gas costs, for the same pay (and possibly less)? I doubt it. The other option is raising the price of the fish and corals to cover the loss revenues, but then you run into the quandry of the fish costing the store more and more the longer you keep em and there is no margin there either. So the end of the day the store just has to take less money for the same amount of work, fix other peoples mistakes, give free advice, and smile as customer bring the lastest mailorder catalog into the store to ask advice on what they should buy.

Do you really think that 20% is raping customers in a well run high quality shop?

 

[dizzy]

Fine, here we go.

Why does anyone think one business is more or less deserving of your money? Petco and your LFS both exist for profit and no other reason. Otherwise, your LFS owner would just be called a hobbyist.

of which a reply to this was

The guys who started Petco came over from other industries when they saw possible dollar signs. They were not people who got into the pet business because they love animals.

Fozza,
I can see how all the different quotes by different people confussed the issue for you. Hwarang was acting as the loyal Petco apologist in the first quote. He obviously hates local fish stores and tries to paint them all with one brush. The second quote was mine and I was trying to explain that not all of us get in this business because we see quick dollar signs like the Petco people did. I think were are actually on the same page now. People got to get paid and make money no matter what profession they choose. The fact is some people are willing to forego a paycheck in the early days in order to keep the ship from sinking. Given their druthers I'm sure they would like to have a little spending money too. Ever heard this quote? Get a job you like and you'll never have to work a day in your life. It's a damn lie so don't ever use it. :wink:

 

[Fozza]

You see now, my statement was a simple one. It weren't out of hate of LFS' or anything, just a simple statement.

None of the fuss needed to be as much as it became.

 

[Len]

None of the fuss needed to be as much as it became.

I agree. However, people need to express their ideas in a more respectful, mature tone. The reason for much of the fuss IMO is that things were said by many parties rather crudely and argumentatively. This isn't a debate. It's sharing of ideas. Please keep that in mind whenever you post.

 

[Anonymous]

But are you suggesting that a store should just eat the extra costs of doing things the right way?

Not at all. I pointed out what I see as (part of) the problem. This is it in a nutshell, with all the other BS cut away:
...
Other business models have found a cheaper way to deliver goods. In our economical system, bottom line is $$. Other businesses need to adapt and also find a cheaper way to deliver the goods, in order to stay competitive.
...

I offer no particular course of action or suggestion, because I don't want to limit your imagination or lock you into any particular idea. Though I think you've done that yourself. You, as a biz owner, need to be capable and intelligent. Surely you can think of something a little more um ... financially sound ... than "eat the costs" ... that's not very profitable and perhaps not very smart either!


--
To use someone else's olive garden analogy: yes, that would be fine if all the mom and pop italian restaurants were replaced by olive garden. I may not prefer it, as I don't care for olive garden's food and i generally prefer variety, but if that's what the market asked for then that's what it should get. It's very obvious that you all are arguing from sentiment for the little guy, when in fact the little guy is really just a baby corporation. It would become a monster if you let it. Think of any LFS in your area. What if they grew into petco sized proportions. Then you'd hate them and the circle of bandwagon jumping would repeat itself. I am surprised that nobody else has picked this up yet, it's so obvious.

 

[clarionreef]

But what if they grew up on legal, ethically collected netcaught fish?
Then for me....most of the argument would disappear.
Its the lack of concern and sustainablility in the corporate equation that is so threatening to the supply and industry reform.
They... more then anyone else, could sponsor reform, if only for PR and image enhancement.
Struggling to reform the trade and insure a future for it is so far the work of smaller independants.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

It would become a monster if you let it.

The thing is though, you're arguing this with folks who (most likely) wouldn't let it...

edit: Most are intelligent enough to bump the average suit out of his or her cushy corporate seat and join "the machine" if they desired..

 

[Money Pit]

Government? What government?

Hmmm... Let me answer that by asking you whether the Phillipines (an area known for using cyanide) have laws against the use of cynanide? They do and the reason they are not inforced is because the officials that are suppose to inforce the law are paid off. But don't take my word for it read the UNEP World Conservation Monitoring Centre report. There can be no doubt that the fish trade perpetuates the destruction of our reefs and it would seem the only people who disagree are those that profit from it. It's like the tobacco industry telling us smoking is not bad for you.
I think it's funny how you skirt around the fact that at least 1.8 million fish/inverts die a year and yet we focus on PetCO. Lets take a look at the bigger picture people. I think it is foolhardy to believe that the fish trade is good for the reefs.

WHOOPS... raping not rapping... :lol:

PS. The 'Darwinist -slash- pseudo-intellectual computer Rambo' dude is my favorite.

Dizzy is my favorite too.
The self righteous hypocrite is my 2nd favorite.. :wink:

Do you really think that 20% is raping customers in a well run high quality shop?

I wish it was only 20%, I've seen the wholesale prices and know that AC marks it's livestock up 100%, and they're still cheaper then most LFS's. A store in Long Beach, won't mention their name, does a 200% mark up.