Petco

[Anonymous]

But are you suggesting that a store should just eat the extra costs of doing things the right way?

Not at all. I pointed out what I see as (part of) the problem. This is it in a nutshell, with all the other BS cut away:
...
Other business models have found a cheaper way to deliver goods. In our economical system, bottom line is $$. Other businesses need to adapt and also find a cheaper way to deliver the goods, in order to stay competitive.
...

I offer no particular course of action or suggestion, because I don't want to limit your imagination or lock you into any particular idea. Though I think you've done that yourself. You, as a biz owner, need to be capable and intelligent. Surely you can think of something a little more um ... financially sound ... than "eat the costs" ... that's not very profitable and perhaps not very smart either!

And would not a group of like minded retailers, with simaliar interests joining together for mutual benefit not fit into a finacially sound course of action?


--

meone else's olive garden analogy: yes, that would be fine if all the mom and pop italian restaurants were replaced by olive garden. I may not prefer it, as I don't care for olive garden's food and i generally prefer variety, but if that's what the market asked for then that's what it should get. It's very obvious that you all are arguing from sentiment for the little guy, when in fact the little guy is really just a baby corporation. It would become a monster if you let it. Think of any LFS in your area. What if they grew into petco sized proportions. Then you'd hate them and the circle of bandwagon jumping would repeat itself. I am surprised that nobody else has picked this up yet, it's so obvious.

I believe our point is that this industry cannot be streamlined to the point of being able to grow it so big and also provide for the current level of variety, and the sustainability of the industry. Any more than an Olive Garden can provide variety. I'm sure that if if there were a such group as italian food hobbyists, they wouldn't appreciate being left with only the Olive Garden to eat at. Likewise we are trying to alert the group of hobbyists interested in the salt water hobby that if things continue down this path, much of the variety may be gone and you will be left with only the walmart of the fish world to shop at. While I understand that in a pure dollars and cents and the will of the market sort of way it doesn't really matter, and I would expect this sort of response when conversing with business types with only a look at the bottom line. However, the audience here is more interested in their hobby than the long term future and viability of an industry, thus we are trying toconvince those that we perceive care, of the dangers of losing something they enjoy if we continue to go down this road.

 

[Anonymous]

Fine, here we go.
<lots of snipping>
and got this as a reply

that is the very reason. Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck.

I simply point out thats bull, and that they (LFS') do enter the business due to love of aquariums, but they are also in it to make money.

<a lot more snipping>

Fozza, that was my quote. I am a hobbist. There are 3 lfs in my area, and no not one of them brings home a paycheck from their lfs. Maybe in the future they will.

 

[Anonymous]

I wish it was only 20%, I've seen the wholesale prices and know that AC marks it's livestock up 100%, and they're still cheaper then most LFS's. A store in Long Beach, won't mention their name, does a 200% mark up.

How much mark up do you think is necessary in order for the store to be able to pay its bills, employess, and purchase more product?

 

[mark78]

LFS also have the need to mark up thier dry goods more to make up for money lost in thier fish room. Fish collected and transported around the world die very often. A number around 90% of all captured fish don't make it to a hobbiests tank.

If stores didn't carry livestock, then they could likley offer better prices on thier dry goods, but then where will you get your fish?

As to the whole making money thing...

Most people are taking the term "to make money" as "to get rich".
Foz is using it in its literal sense, even if you only make $1, you may of been in it to make money.

 

[clarionreef]

Once upon a time in Denver, Colorado,
There was a public aquarium called Ocean Journey.
It had its very own Mexican permit to collect fishes for its exhibits.
After 3 years...the permit was cancelled because it was finally discovered that they were charging admission for the public to visit. :roll:
The Mexican State Dept. initiated procedings to revoke the permit and sent the orders down the line to all the law enforcers.
I spoke with fisheries while shipping out my own fish at the end of this charade and they told me that they heard the Denver Aquarium was "making millions off of their resources and that what happened was justified.
Futhermore it was believed that the aquarium would somehow survive on grant money and handouts.

Anyway, a little over a year ago the aquarium went bankrupt.

This thread reminds me of the hysteria in Mexico that accused the foreigners of cashing in and making money.
Obviously they were not making money but the point is now moot...and no one has to admit they were wrong.
Steve
PS. Former collector for the Denver Aquarium

 

[clarionreef]

As a post script,
The Center for the Investigation of Fisheries in La Paz, Baja Sur, Mexico has its own 'noble, not for profit' aquarium.
It kills and has killed hundreds of kilos of fish every year since its founding.
There is no expensive aquarist to pay but they do have a cartaker who lives off the donation jar at the entrance.
It is a dim lit, dismal, fish killing joke and I imagine that since they are without the taint of commerce...they do it for the love of the fishes and the sea.
Sea

 

[Money Pit]

How much mark up do you think is necessary in order for the store to be able to pay its bills, employess, and purchase more product?

I'm comfortable with the prices at AC, but to answer your question, what ever they feel is necessary to make a comfortable living, pay their employes a decent wage, benefits would be nice, and keep their store stocked with merchandise.

I'm not sure that the Denver Aquarium went bankrupt because it's collection permit was revoked, I found this;

"The aquarium filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in April 2002 and had $62.5 million in debt at a high interest rate which caused its bankruptcy."

BTW the Denver Aquarium is still open for business.
http://www.oceanjourney.org/

 

[ohthelies]

I have to say that I agree with a lot (not all) of what Hwarang is trying to say. In addition, however, I can completely understand where the opposing point of view is coming from. One point of Hwarang's that he's mentioned at least twice now is the need for the LFS's to adapt. Online vendors are slashing costs, and we all know it. The price tags I see at my LFS are almost always ridiculously too high, and they force me to go to these online vendors.

Everbody knows that LFS's have infinitely better customer service, which PetCo could never even come close to touching. The only real reason that true hobbiests go to PetCo and online vendors is because of the prices. Everybody wants to save a buck or two.

Now, I certainly don't own a store, and never have, so I don't know everything there is to know about these sorts of things, but it's no secret that Wal-Mart makes a lot of money simply by buying in bulk. With their massive size and power, they are able to buy many times more than the mom and pops around the country.

With products coming and going like they do in this hobby, I can only imagine how difficult it can be to keep up with it all. For one store to something in bulk could be disasterous, due to the possibility that they'll have a whole bunch of obsolete merchandise, and no way to get rid of it.

I think the better LFS's around the country could benefit greatly by the simple act of holding each others hands. Think about the two stores withing close proximity to each other buying the same thing from the same company for the same amount. Now imagine them getting together, and buying the same product in one order that is now twice as big as when they ordered seperately. The stores save money by buying in bulk, and can now afford to lower the cost slightly to the customers. Immediate benefit.

Now, I'm not talking about mergers and all that corporate bologna, just alliances and plain ol' friendships. I don't know, just an idea and my two cents.

Cheers,
Nick.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the better LFS's around the country could benefit greatly by the simple act of holding each others hands. Think about the two stores withing close proximity to each other buying the same thing from the same company for the same amount. Now imagine them getting together, and buying the same product in one order that is now twice as big as when they ordered seperately. The stores save money by buying in bulk, and can now afford to lower the cost slightly to the customers. Immediate benefit.

Now, I'm not talking about mergers and all that corporate bologna, just alliances and plain ol' friendships. I don't know, just an idea and my two cents.

And there you have the new AMDA.

 

[dizzy]

I think the better LFS's around the country could benefit greatly by the simple act of holding each others hands. Think about the two stores withing close proximity to each other buying the same thing from the same company for the same amount. Now imagine them getting together, and buying the same product in one order that is now twice as big as when they ordered seperately. The stores save money by buying in bulk, and can now afford to lower the cost slightly to the customers. Immediate benefit.

Now, I'm not talking about mergers and all that corporate bologna, just alliances and plain ol' friendships. I don't know, just an idea and my two cents.

And there you have the new AMDA.

And it's truly amazing how it strikes fear in the hearts of the Petco apologists. You'd think mommy and daddy had just told them they were going to have to get a job and move out of the house.

 

[ohthelies]

What exactly is the AMDA, and what do they do for LFS's? I've heard both positive and negative things about the association, but never really got a grasp of how they benefited LFS's.

 

[JennM]

Government? What government?

Hmmm... Let me answer that by asking you whether the Phillipines (an area known for using cyanide) have laws against the use of cynanide? They do and the reason they are not inforced is because the officials that are suppose to inforce the law are paid off. But don't take my word for it read the UNEP World Conservation Monitoring Centre report. There can be no doubt that the fish trade perpetuates the destruction of our reefs and it would seem the only people who disagree are those that profit from it. It's like the tobacco industry telling us smoking is not bad for you.
I think it's funny how you skirt around the fact that at least 1.8 million fish/inverts die a year and yet we focus on PetCO. Lets take a look at the bigger picture people. I think it is foolhardy to believe that the fish trade is good for the reefs.

Well if the Government is taking payolas now, who's going to grease their palms to PROTECT the reefs?

Nature abhors a vacuum.

I still maintain that the best way to save reefs is to teach the locals who live off the avails of the reef, how to manage a perfectly renewable resource.

Waiting for some suit to do it, while he/she has his hand out for a bribe, is not going to do it.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

I keep seeing stuff about "adapting and changing" to effectively slash prices...

The way I see it, in order to sell at the same price as the gentlemen in the white lab coats, I would have to:

Get rid of my retail space - can't afford over $3K rent a month if I'm only making a dollar on a powerhead...

So I move to my garage where I can buy powerheads by the gross... and blow them out of here via UPS.

Arrange a drop-ship arrangement with my wholesalers - so I never have to drive my truck to the airport, pick up and tank fish, feed and maintain them until "somebody" buys it...

You know it's funny - if we all did that, then the great expense of tanking/maintaining would shift to the wholesalers - and then as costs increased, the prices would too....

But I digress....

Glenn brought up some great points - the added costs of shipping, the time spent packing and processing orders, marketing, then there would have to be price parody in-store and "online"... although some stores do not do this... it would effectively put me in the back room packing boxes as opposed to tending my tanks and talking to customers.

Not a sensible option for me at this point, and I don't foresee it being.

The nay-sayers here call it "raping" clients for money... I say that our facility and our products and our services (emphasis on SERVICES) are worth the added cost.

My time and skills are valuable.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say that I agree with a lot (not all) of what Hwarang is trying to say. In addition, however, I can completely understand where the opposing point of view is coming from. One point of Hwarang's that he's mentioned at least twice now is the need for the LFS's to adapt. Online vendors are slashing costs, and we all know it. The price tags I see at my LFS are almost always ridiculously too high, and they force me to go to these online vendors.

Everbody knows that LFS's have infinitely better customer service, which PetCo could never even come close to touching. The only real reason that true hobbiests go to PetCo and online vendors is because of the prices. Everybody wants to save a buck or two.

Now, I certainly don't own a store, and never have, so I don't know everything there is to know about these sorts of things, but it's no secret that Wal-Mart makes a lot of money simply by buying in bulk. With their massive size and power, they are able to buy many times more than the mom and pops around the country.

With products coming and going like they do in this hobby, I can only imagine how difficult it can be to keep up with it all. For one store to something in bulk could be disasterous, due to the possibility that they'll have a whole bunch of obsolete merchandise, and no way to get rid of it.

I think the better LFS's around the country could benefit greatly by the simple act of holding each others hands. Think about the two stores withing close proximity to each other buying the same thing from the same company for the same amount. Now imagine them getting together, and buying the same product in one order that is now twice as big as when they ordered seperately. The stores save money by buying in bulk, and can now afford to lower the cost slightly to the customers. Immediate benefit.

Now, I'm not talking about mergers and all that corporate bologna, just alliances and plain ol' friendships. I don't know, just an idea and my two cents.

Cheers,
Nick.

Did you know that if Jenn, Rover, Dizzy and even Fozza (yeah, he's a retailer too. Check his profile) could buy the drygoods for the same price as the Drs. or petco or or or...whoever, then they could sell them for less too. But in reality, they can't even buy wholesale for what they (big box) are selling for. Did that make sense?

Saw this the other day. I bought a product retail in Terre Haute, IN for less than a guy here can buy it for wholesale. What kind of crap is that?

Steve, Mitch (do the snappy "Z" thing) you go girls, I mean AMDA :wink:

 

[Money Pit]

Jenn,
The point is the police are being brided not to do their jobs, remove that bribe money and they would do a better job. Tourism is a billion dollar industry in many coral reef areas, the fish trade in the Phillipines is 300 million (according to the before mentioned report) at best. There is undoubtedly a monetary incentive to maintain the reefs without the fish trade.

 

[JennM]

And who is going to remove the bribe? Nature abhors a vacuum... I believe that corruption goes higher than just the police - if we know what's going on thousands of miles away, you can bet that others know too - but there's a long line of people with their hands in the cookie jar. Unless you want to organize some sort of coup, or hostile takeover, we are stuck dealing with the existing governmental infrastructure.

Furthermore, even if you could curb the supply of cyanide (which I'm not convinced you could), just what would you propose to do with the fisherman? They need nets and training... at least some here have attempted to remedy that.

If you shut the fishery down altogether, what becomes of those people whose livelihoods it is, to gather fishes for the MO trade? They might go to food fishing and guess what? Cyanide is a problem there too, so is blast fishing and other problems.

I still maintain that you can't necessarily turn a fisherman into a bellhop, a chambermaid, a conceierge, a chauffeur or any other "touristy" worker, and not all of the places would be politically or georgraphically conducive to tourist trade. Any more than somebody could turn me from an algae scraper into a teacher. We could use more teachers here in Georgia but not every square peg can fit into every round hole. Yes people adapt, but here we have the benefit of retraining, unemployment insurance, welfare, state funded schools and a multitude of other social safety nets.

If you want to change the world, begin by changing a village.

 

[JennM]

Jenn,
There is undoubtedly a monetary incentive to maintain the reefs without the fish trade.

Really? Food fish too? What will folks eat?

And where will that money come from? You funding it? Bill Gates maybe? Perhaps a tax? Can't pay tax if you can't work - put all the fishermen out of work, and who's going to support them?

Your shortsightedness is offensive.

Jenn

 

[Johnsteph10]

You mean it takes certain skill to run a business, keep up with supply and demand, stocking, managing and maintaining a buttload of complicated self-contained aquatic ecosystems, provide customer support and service, manage complex accounting....and make MONEY?

LMAO.

John

 

[Money Pit]

Jenn,
The bribes come from those that fish using cyanide, cyanide is used to catch large numbers of fish with little effort and time. Remove the reason to use cyanide (profits selling large numbers of fish to the fish trade) and you remove a huge threat to the reefs and the money used to bribe officials to turn a blind eye. The officials are already being paid by the government but are corrupted by the quick cash offered to them by cyanide fisherman. Your insistence that removing 6 million (just talking about the Phillipines now) a year only to have 40% of them die is some how good for the reefs is offensive, and the fact that you make your living doing it is even more offensive. However I do understand why you would want people to believe your charade. The last thing you would want is to give up your livlihood.

BTW we're not talking about fishing for food, so try not to spin the topic. We are discussing the unethical treatment of ornamental fish by PetCo and by the industry in general. It's funny how you don't even address the huge number of fish killed by the trade.

 

[JennM]

Jenn,
The bribes come from those that fish using cyanide, cyanide is used to catch large numbers of fish with little effort and time. Remove the reason to use cyanide (profits selling large numbers of fish to the fish trade) and you remove a huge threat to the reefs and the money used to bribe officials to turn a blind eye. The officials are already being paid by the government but are corrupted by the quick cash offered to them by cyanide fisherman. Your insistence that removing 6 million (just talking about the Phillipines now) a year only to have 40% of them die is some how good for the reefs is offensive, and the fact that you make your living doing it is even more offensive. However I do understand why you would want people to believe your charade. The last thing you would want is to give up your livlihood.

BTW we're not talking about fishing for food, so try not to spin the topic. We are discussing the unethical treatment of ornamental fish by PetCo and by the industry in general. It's funny how you don't even address the huge number of fish killed by the trade.

No spin here. Perhaps you should sachet over to the Industry Forum - no charades here either. I am brutally honest about the dirty aspects of the trade, and I do my best to run a clean and ethical operation. I'm net caught only or aquacultured, and if I'm in doubt (PI or Indo) I don't bring it in. No there is no guarantee that something juiced doesn't slip by (my guarantee is no better than MAC's), but I make a conscious and concerted effort to avoid the possiblity of cyanide caught fish. I deal with suppliers that either deal only in net caught, OR if there's any question, I steer clear of the fishes that might be juiced. I don't shop the 104th street wholesalers, I deal with 3 mom and pop wholesalers who actually give a damn. Maybe I don't have 2 of every available fish, but obligate feeders and (thusfar) impossible to keep species are not to be found here. Variety might not be as much as my competitors but if one is patient, one can usually get the desirable target species, either cleanly caught, or from a net-caught only region. Just got some great blue tangs from the Solomons...

BTW -- it's not the fishermen paying the authorities - on a good day they can afford some chicken to feed their families. If anybody's paying anybody, it's the middlemen and/or exporters. They are the ones pushing the cyanide.

I've never been there so I'm not going to pretend that I know it all or all the nuances about how the "system" works but I have listened carefully to those who have, and those who have worked to effect change. Perhaps Steve can draw a clearer picture for you, but it's not as you depict it.

How much did you contribute to the netting fund? I gave $50 to the MSI netting fund.

I do put my money and my reputation where my mouth is.

Jenn