Petco

[Anonymous]

Hwarang, we still need to discuss your concept about why there are so many fewer farmers now as compared to 1990. If that trend continues, you won't have any food to eat.

Interesting analogy but I would have gone more for how WallyWorld is sticking it to all the Mom & Pops without so much as a reach-around.

Technology & politics caused the "withering" of the American farmer. And the same analogy applied to the pet industry would have more than a few shop owners salivating I'm sure.. - Get paid to simply keep their current stock and not actually sell to hobbyists?? - :lol: Steves wet dream come true! (Not that it would probably be a bad thing, after all, he does have a point in being so depressed about how we're raping this planet..)

 

[HClH2OFish]

Jeeez....we went from discussing a possible new direction Petco is taking, to comparisons on McDonalds and bashing each other for reasons of being in the LFS biz!??! WTF!?!

Ok..I'll probably get flamed for this, but here goes.....<deep breath>

Petco currently *sux* as far as their care goes...this is a given that we'll all agree upon.
NOW THEN... *IF* Petco decides to clean up their act and fixes these issues with livestock, etc. how many of us will have an issue with buying from them?

I've been to LFS that sux just as bad as Petco does now...I've also been to LFS that absolutely rock in terms of husbandry, quality of svc, etc.


All these asides into why people get into the biz, comparisons about how large retailers work, etc etc etc is simply *POINTLESS* IMHO

Even if Petco cleans up their act, will it kill off the LFS? I think it may hurt some, but the only ones I'd see it hurting badly are those that have poor practices anyway....
Bad husbandry drives me to a better shop...if Petco has good quality stock at a good price, guess what? I'm buying from them.....

Bashing each other for differences in opinion on business practices, economics, etc. doesn't do anything but get a thread closed.
Can we all agree that there are different reasons for LFS existing and also agree there are different forces driving decisions for being in the biz in the first place?

If we can do that, maybe we can get the thread back on the topic of Petco...what they are now and what it means to the hobby if they can finally clean up their act (although I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one)

/rant off

 

[Anonymous]

>Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck.

I dont believe it

Look, the folks who have a good business plan, who know what they're doing, these folks can support themselves. However, do you think they're making the kind of money any one of the higher-ups at Petco makes? Not on your life. Owning your own business is hard enough, but owning and operating a business like this is long, hard, backbreaking - the pay does not provide equitable compensation. This is where the love of it comes in, for only that can provide the true compensation.

 

[clarionreef]

H20,
WE'RE STILL ON TOPIC.
The McDonalds and industrialized farming points are exactly on topic.
As are the differences good LFS care can make as opposed to care by 'the manual' that Petco prints and ignores for its aquarium department.
There is no larger killer of saltwater fish in this country then they.
Not only mathematically but proportionately.
There is also no larger buyer of cyanide caught fish then they.
There are no worse fish then they have as their policy is 'all things all the time' and only the conventional, fish-mill importers can deliver and work w/ them.
Look at what they have done to the vaunted ORA clownfish!
The routine and predictable killing of Nemos [ ie. good ocellaris clowns ] on such a scale boggles the mind.
Good fish go to die there. How do you think the basic Philippine fish fare there?
They are a disgrace to the industry and have invited much media attention for their abuse of animals for good reason.
They have a huge weakness...and it will come to light.
Besides Grate and Hwarang...they have few public disciples.
Steve

 

[mark78]

>Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck.

I dont believe it

Sure some do, the ones you have visited for the last 5 years likley does, enough to pay the bills anyways. Now take a step back and look at all the LFS that have come and gone during that same time. I don't know about others but I have seen my share of LFS go out of business, its very common.

This can relate to other industries. WinnDixie pulled every store out of Texas and closed down thier Ft. Worth warehouse leat year. Rainbow foods is gone too and Fleming went bankrupt as well. All of this happened within the last year. Theres also a Wal-Mart on every block (seriously) in DFW. I think you can do the math on that one.

However, do you think they're making the kind of money any one of the higher-ups at Petco makes?

Apples and oranges IMO. THe higher ups at Petco have a $30/share stock price to worry about and serious cash. They are overseeing and running what, over 1000 stores nationwide? They are taking in profits and getting bonuses off a chain of stores all over the country, of course they are banking, they are a CORPERATION, unless the mom an pop business is installing aquariums for every movie motion picture, tv show, commercial, every casino in vegas, trumps tanks etc etc, I don't think you can compare, and even then its still different source incomes. Petco is making its fortune off newbies who want a 10g tank, you are trying to make money off people who have been successful with that 10g tank and want more/bigger. Huge difference in volume. Ever hang out at a Petco or Petsmart? I may apply for a part time job at the local petsmart, every time I am in there are like 10 people standing around the fish area waiting for someone to help them, getting off track sorry Point is they do insane volumes, even on thier fish belive it or not. The foot traffic thorugh thier door daily may rival yours weekly, for many reasons many beyond your control.

Oh yah before my ramblings I meant to add, theres another huge difference, the higher ups at Petco are in it for 1 reason, the money. They could likley care about the care/quality of thier products and livestock, as long as they sell and don't cause problems with animal activists etc. The average LFS owner is not in it for the money, but rather to "pay the bills" while doing a job they like doing as said before.

 

[mark78]

I need a job way to much time on my hands =/

H20,
WE'RE STILL ON TOPIC.
The McDonalds and industrialized farming points are exactly on topic.

Large coperate farmers overtook the little guys, just like mcdonalds overtook the roadside burger joint. Just like SafeWay, Walmart, etc have taken over the grocery industry. Sure mom&pop versions of all of these still exist, but nothing like it used to be, and declining daily I'd bet.

We live in a material country where for many, the dollar is king. To most, a Petco is a valued business because it saves them money.

There is no larger killer of saltwater fish in this country then they.
Not only mathematically but proportionately.
There is also no larger buyer of cyanide caught fish then they.

Any numbers or references to back this up?

There are no worse fish then they have as their policy is 'all things all the time' and only the conventional, fish-mill importers can deliver and work w/ them.

This is an opinion, there are many LFS that are just as bad.

They are a disgrace to the industry and have invited much media attention for their abuse of animals for good reason.

Agreed, ever see thier poor ferrets? Often housed in WOOD chips which is very harmful to thier lungs, its sad

They have a huge weakness...and it will come to light.
Besides Grate and Hwarang...they have few public disciples.

Heres where I think you are way wrong. They do not need disciples, that is not thier target market, and likley are not even included in thier business plan. Thier target market is newbies, and people who want to save money, basically anyone uninformed, people who come in to buy dogfood and decide they need an aquarium NOW, etc you get the idea. They don't target diehard hobbiests for the most part.

 

[Len]

A general reminder to please keep your posts civil and refrain from taking things in a personal direction. There's great exchange of ideas being made here.

 

[clarionreef]

Right Len,
I just put a smiley on my 'disciples' comment.
I know they are not 'true believers' in the chain store movement to suck up all the marinelife in the ocean. They are just reacting to people of passion who care about things.
This human need to care beyond the self always seems to upset people who care about nothing.... beyond their own door.
PS. Perhaps the PETCO movement is useful in a way. Perhaps it will help unite and improve LFS's and remind them that the Borg is coming.
Still, I'm amazed at the people rooting for the Borg.
Cool sci-fi. Horrific if coming to pass.

 

[clarionreef]

Mark,
Your observation on the ferrets kept w/ woodchips....
I live surrounded by Petcos. I can visit them anytime I have 10 minutes to spare...and walk from tank to tank and make observations like your ferret one all day long.
What happens in the tanks ...ie nearly every tank is analogous to your ferret commentary and very sad. You care about ferrets? I do about the fish.
Crypt, red ulcers, uranema, oodinium, white slime, pinched bellies, unsuitable species etc. etc. all day long. Animal abuse is policy.
Biggest salt retailer in the country now....worse bad fish per 100 ratio I've ever seen...in 25 years in wholesale.
All I can say is that they are so lucky the press knows so little.
Steve

 

[Fozza]

The average LFS owner is not in it for the money, but rather to "pay the bills" while doing a job they like doing as said before.

How do you think they pay the bills? They might not be raking in millions, and undoubtedly they "are" in it for the love of aquariums, but they are still in it to make "money", whether its to pay the bills, to buy their 2 cars and a house, or whatever. They are still in it for the money.



I can't say for sure about whether they make money on livestock or not, but I'd still think they would have to make money there. Maybe not the higher percentage of their profits, but they must still be making money. (I won't argue this point anymore tho, because I'm not 100% sure on it)

 

[Anonymous]

All I can say is that I hope Steve is able to pull off the coup he's cooking. - PetCo is probably the best reason I can think of for supporting AMDA and your local B&M.

After all, I can count on one hand the number of LFS owners (good and bad) who drive beemers or benzes. (Cause I don't know ANY!)

I certainly have a lot more respect for the maint. owner in a rusty van, tossled hair & muddy boots than some corp tool in a slick car, sharp haircut and a tie.

Norm

 

[HClH2OFish]

H20,
WE'RE STILL ON TOPIC.
The McDonalds and industrialized farming points are exactly on topic.

Yup...it is on topic......what I was trying to point out is that some of the 'heated' discussion looked like it was tending towards flaming/name calling. I see *many* great points being made here along with the comparisons....just didn't want to lose the thread

So...to keep on topic :lol:

If Petco *does* change it's formula and starts taking care of their fish dept. why would this be a bad thing for the hobby? And aside from the one shop in CA, is this being done anywhere else?

I guess my problem is I'm trying to see a silver lining on this dog turd and hope they take care of the animals and actually educate the customers before making a sale....something that is not realistically going to happen....it's just nice to dream...

 

[Anonymous]

If it looks like $h!t, smells like $h!t and feels like $h!t do you really want to taste it?

 

[clarionreef]

Norm,
Are we talking about the best way to make money or take care of customers and fish?
Clearly some will make a lot more money in Petco then regular fish store people.
Removing fish in an industrialized way off the reefs to feed the machine will no doubt reward some at the top.
If nature could keep up...why not?
Some people in this thing seem to confuse marketing replaceable products with slow growing, variable, seasonal and controversial wildlife.
The trade was slowly having it 'beaten into them' that sustainable practice and pace, collecting area management policy and quotas, permits and policies that insure future fish supply are a serious part of the equation.
Now here comes Petco with no conscience and commitment to anything but money and a business plan to vacuum everything that moves from the ocean floor.
1,000 of them to feed and now the superstores [ borgs] are coming.
How delightful. Perhaps we can get them in a roundtable discussion on industry reform like this past weekend at Chicagos IMAC.
Steve
Nah...they'd never show. They are not nearly dumb enough to expose themselves to the kind of beating they'd get at the hands of real fish people.

 

[Anonymous]

let's say, for a moment, that petco carried only t/r and ethically caught harvested livestock, and had the care/employee knowledge to match

would the amda still be as violently opposed to petco as a purely business threat, or would they give petco the option of joining the amda as a fellow member that follows the 'ethical' guidelines ?

 

[Anonymous]

If that were the case I don't see how you could prevent individual stores from joining, but the problem is they are a chain. A blanket certification of the entire chain would be problematic. For exampe, PetLand is a franchise and would thus be eligible since ownership and quality control happen at the store level and not a corporate office on the other side of the country. Why would PetCO need AMDA though?

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
IF YOU WON THE LOTTERY...
Or the equally impossible stocking of the big machine with only ethical livestock happens...
I would be so thrilled...because if they ever get all clean livestock, then everyone will have clean livestock!
As the least ethical dealers there are from an environmental standpoint...they would be the very last to go along with your suggested utopia.
If training and industry reform get that far along then we have solved the problem!
And then....my biggest reservation would be removed.
Imagine all the good they could do if they only had a heart?! and the intelligence to relize that no one makes a profit off of dead coral reefs!
But alas...they do not understand this. And for that we all must suffer.
Especially people who love coral and coral reefs.
Steve
PS. However Vitz. If you have an 'in' into the den....and can solicit and secure a 500K grant for net training of 2,000 collectors....then ya got me.
We could do it in a year and they could have the credit. They are going to lose that in dead fish each year anyway.. I'll bet they lose that in healthy ocellaris from ORA every year alone!

 

[dizzy]

would the amda still be as violently opposed to petco as a purely business threat, or would they give petco the option of joining the amda as a fellow member that follows the 'ethical' guidelines ?

vitz,
AMDA has never been violently opposed to Petco. Just because this Brian Devine guy has been bragging he is going to put us all out of business doesn't mean we are conspiring to burn down his stores. AMDA is opposed to violence. We're planning a peaceful protest march on the capitol in the Fall. :wink: :lol:

 

[erickrebsbach]

Looks great , But up in my neck of the woods they are nothing like that nor I doubt they ever will be :!: I just lost a couple of clowns to ick from those guys DAMN NEAR spread it to all my fish :evil: I personally hate petco They have the combined intelligence of a nudi-branch!!!!!! Just my opinion :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Well, from a corporate money-grubber standpoint, clearly the "borg" model is the way to go. At least in the short run as you're alluding to.. (Till the resource is depleted.)

Does that mean it gets my stamp of approval?? - Well, the rusty van/muddy boots comment aught to paint the way there.. - Hell no!

Much as I might befuddle (or bemuse?) at times, I have and will continue to support the guy/gal doing what they have a passion for, at least, when that passion is something more than the almighty greenback.

IMO: The borg are the anomaly in the equation (etailers more than likely at least have a passing interest in what they're about besides $$) but the borg do not and (again, IMO) should be confronted by a unified front of all, not just B&M's...