Petco

[Anonymous]

I don't think the average Petco employee has a family to take care of.

Any analogy will fall apart if you read too much into it. The point was, ppl everywhere need to get paid, whether is some 20 year old single peep or a married peep or whatever.

Petco is a corporate conglomerate that is working on taking as much of the market share the traditional pet store that built it.

Point counterpoint:
LFS' are just small corporations hoping to take as much of the market share as petco does. They have parallel goals.

While the average LFS also expects to make a profit, many of them are also in it because of their love for pets and pet owners.

The important thing that differentiates an LFS owner from a hobbyist or researcher is that the LFS owner is trying to make money doing it. I'm not bashing you, but it is the truth.

Internet ordering works because they can sell a lot of items at lower margins.

Good, you understand the basic concept of it.

Very few internet sites create new customers, so all etail is dependent on the stores constantly creating new customers and selling the big bulky fragile aquariums that no one else can afford to ship.

The veracity of this point is debatable, but even so, there are many ways around the problem.

If you think that every single LFS out there can be successful on the internet, you're crazy.

I don't and this is precisely my point. We need fewer, but better ones. Not more crappier ones. Check back with me in a decade or two. A bunch of LFS will have been culled from the herd and the total LFS population will probably be much lower. Adapt to become one of the survivors, or find a new biz

As a rider to that thought: online aqua hobby vendors will also probably have a heydey, then a culling period, then stability. Barring other factors ... market crashes etc.

As marketing becomes necessary in order to gain customers margins decrease and prices go up.

This is nothing unique to aquatic hobby stores, it's a "feature" of business worldwide.

The hobby would be dead.

Or it might be better than it's ever been before.
*waves divining rod about*

People covet what they see, without a store to walk into I don't think the hobby will continue to grow.
Limited imagination. I've gotten quite a few of my friends into planted FW/and reefkeepingSW ... going to stores is not the only way to get interested, although I must concede to you that seeing it in person is comparable to nothing.

*shrug*
You sound a little recalcitrant yourself. Why not investigate growing the online portion of your business now, ahead of the curve?

 

[Anonymous]

Dry goods and food are the money makers in any pet industry. <snip&switch> There have always been huge profits in dog food, just because of the amount you sell, 10-20% is a LOT. Heck my neighbor on one side of me alone has 3 huge dogs.

This is what I've been saying, and their numbers prove my point. vitz's question about the cost of manufacture and shipping said dog food is pointed AND pertinent. The profit, I believe, is a good deal more than 10%-20% - though I threw out all I'd had from when I worked at HQ, so I can't hit with hard and fast numbers anymore.

]Livestock are not the big money makers for pet stores. Dry goods is where the money is at. Dry goods can be bulk shipped and broken down in a central warehouse. This warehouse could supply every Petco for 400 miles or more. Once you have this its really a small feat to setup a holding and livstock areas in your warehouse. Now Petco is ordering huge boxes of livestock directly from EXPORTERS and shipping them to thier central warehouses instead of say, All-Seas, possibly effecting All-Seas supply and the supply of many LFS. Now Petco is making the profit All-Seas would of, and is also able to charge a little less for the product. Then again they could just kill everything they get due to incompetent help. Then again they could just kill everything they get due to incompetent help.

You're telling me they're trying the distribution center AGAIN? You're telling me they found new exporters?? 8O
They already tried this, throwing good money after bad, and hiring TEMPS to help ship the damned fish! Are they now wrapping their heads around the fact that an albino corydoras catfish doesn't CARE whether or not you've got the sale material printed up, if they haven't bred and aren't available, they're just not available! What you're saying is that this horse, even with Brian De. still at the helm, has changed its colors? I don't think so. Do we think that they learned their lesson from the last time, and won't go and order 2,500 green iggies when there's NO PLACE TO PUT THEM??? (English soccer fans make an excellent parallel to what ended up happening.)

Hwa, I would think that you can also understand how the conglomeration (read: socialization?) of the competitive market into one huge beast isn't good for anyone but the shareholders of that conglomerate. The economy can, and does, suffer when all goes to one. This doesn't even begin to address the immoral practices I, personally, saw put to practice, downright deplorable to be honest (though I am SURE I'll be bitten directly in the ass for saying as much as I have!).

Gresham, what you're saying is that Pecto's still doing their purchasing as they did it both before and after they tried their own distribution center back in '93-'94, yes?

 

[Anonymous]

wow dizzy!

well i'm glad my reply was so um ... thought provoking. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can. And don't worry, I won't take it personal (your inability to argue w/o getting insulting).

I'm just curious Hwarang as to what you think this better way is?

Beatter meaning more profitable. If you think an LFS has other goals, then you're perhaps kidding yourself. Keep the context of the conversation in mind, please! The term better was used in relation to the end result of a business model in a capitalist (free market) economy.

The guys who started Petco came over from other industries when they saw possible dollar signs.

Newsflash: That's how every business starts.

They were not people who got into the pet business because they love animals.

I do graphic design for a national realtor and mortgage lender. You think I give a rat's ass about selling houses? Do you care about the burgers you flip?

We frequently have people coming in our store telling us how bad it stinks at Petco and about dead animals in the cages.

I've seen excruciatingly disgusting tanks at even the good LFS' around here. Should I make generalizations about each store and the industry as a whole based on my limited experiences? No.

There are plenty of other threads here too where other people are saying the same thing about their Petco.

Perhaps you missed all the "omg listen to what this LFS dumb@ss said!" posts on this and every other fish nerd forum on the internet.

You must be a pretty heartless guy.

If it makes you feel better, sure I am.

The slaughter of animals is acceptable to you as long as you can save a buck or two.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to be a practicing vegan? Better reconsider that statement then. There's a reason this is called the ornamental fish trade. It's because pretty much nobody in this industry or hobby gives a rats ass. If I, or you, or anyone, was truly concerned about what would most please the fish or inverts or whatever - we'd leave them alone on the reef and not confine them to ugly, mechanical cages that poorly simulate the idyllic condtions that our beatiful planet has produced after tens of thousands of years of uninterrupted clockwork operation. It's a pretty high horse you got there mister.

What really gets to me is the double standard your applying here. For them to use purchasing power to gain an advantage is good business. For lfs to join together to increase purchasing power it is backwards.

Silly me, I forgot where I said that. Could you point it out to me, pretty please? I could swear I was just here to make a point to all you bandwagoners quick to jump to moral outrage over the "sins" of Petco. These words of yours don't taste very well, could you take them out of my mouth please?

I'm not having very good thoughts about you right now and I might say something I wish I hadn't.

I'm sending warm fuzzies your way.
*ooom ooooom ooooom*

 

[Anonymous]

Hwa, I would think that you can also understand how the conglomeration (read: socialization?) of the competitive market into one huge beast isn't good for anyone but the shareholders of that conglomerate. The economy can, and does, suffer when all goes to one. This doesn't even begin to address the immoral practices I, personally, saw put to practice, downright deplorable to be honest (though I am SURE I'll be bitten directly in the ass for saying as much as I have!).

OMG finally someone who begins to speak clearly. *waves* HI SM!!

It's a good point you make, one I can't just denounce, nor do I want to. Being a proponent of economic darwinism, I of course understand the value and necessity of competition. Besides, competition drives prices down for ME

I guess I'd bring a couple of points.
1. You're forgetting that petco does have competitors, so it's not like petco would have 100% market share.
2. Despite petco's wishes, they are a LONG way from becoming the oppressive supermonopoly akin to any of your Telecom or Energy companies. I'm speaking just in ability, not approval
3. The government only allows true monopolies when it's in the best interest of the market (which is indirectly in the best interest of the government)
4. Aren't you kinda faulting them for acheiving what every other business tries to do every day?

This doesn't even begin to address the immoral practices I, personally, saw put to practice, downright deplorable to be honest

Yes yes, it's quite disgusting. I'm the type who even shooes flies and spiders outside, I don't kill anything pointlessly. Usually I just don't go down the fish aisles at petco, I just run to the back for kitty food etc. But you know, morality is all on a sliding scale. Would it even exist, if there were no humans here to invent the concept of morality? For example:

Everyone has a limit to what they will tolerate. Imagine my favorite LFS, if you will, it's a little dirty place in an old dilapidated church in a small corner of town. Excellent, excellent store. The guy keeps an african parrot in there. I guess it's cool and whatnot, he doesn't mistreat it, but I simply think that something as intelligent as an african grey, that was meant to roam the skies and whatnot (ok treetops, hehe), isn't meant to be confined to a cage - AT ALL. In fact, I think it's downright torturous. Now lets pretend I decided to tell this guy how mean I thought he was (I didn't ... I'm not like that). Before I came into his store (his world), he had no clue that it might be viewed as immoral to confine the bird. Maybe I should go making all kinds of assumptions about his character, or how he beats the dog at night or whatever ... but I won't ... I realize that he does the best he can, he's not violating any laws, and the bird is generally happy (the bird learned how to meow from the cat, so now the cat, bird and I can have a little conversation each time I come in).

I guess that was sorta a tangled analogy, not my best. I just meant to illustrate how morality is relative to the participants involved. Naturally, nobody wants animals to suffer but we all do have an amount that we are willing to tolerate, and we all probably have a line that can be crossed to move us to action.

Given that I confine fish and through my learning endeavors, have slaughtered plenty ... all in the name of my amusement, or home decoration ... I can't really fault petco for killing all those fish

I can blame them for not trying to correct their mistakes though, that's just lame.

 

[Anonymous]

You sound a little recalcitrant yourself. Why not investigate growing the online portion of your business now, ahead of the curve?

There's no money in it. The majority of online vendors are selling dry goods at list wholesale prices or just a tad above. I spend 25k per month on just rent and payroll, (that doesn't include utilities or insurance). Spending time boxing up and processing orders, dealing with lost shipments, or shipping errors for such little margins is not worth my time, which is my most scarce resource. And it wouldn't be fair to charge those in my local area one price and someone in the next state another, so I would need to drop all of my in store pricers too, and couln't meet my overhead. And finally, it isn't worth doing anything on the net if you aren't going to promote it, which cost money I could be spending on advertising for my store, expanding inventory, pay raises for hardworking employees, etc. So it isn't sour grapes, or bitterness, it's just a personal business decision. (And I actually haven't heard of too many actual succeses at making money over the net by pimping dry goods at tiny margins, save for the big three. Lots of people have shown they can move a lot of product, but I haven't seen any real monetry incentives)

 

[dizzy]

Beatter meaning more profitable. If you think an LFS has other goals, then you're perhaps kidding yourself. Keep the context of the conversation in mind, please! The term better was used in relation to the end result of a business model in a capitalist (free market) economy.

The guys who started Petco came over from other industries when they saw possible dollar signs.

Newsflash: That's how every business starts.

Hey Hwarand I'm still not having great thoughts about you, but I do think I understand where you're coming from now. So you think all of us got into the fish biz cause we saw dollars signs huh. I can only speak for the reasons I got in the biz and it was not because I saw this as an easy road to riches. I'm a lifelong hobbyist. I got my first metal rimmed 10-gallon tank when I was 6-years old back in 1956. I still remember bringing home swordtails and black mollies in the little white cardboard containers like they used to sell Chinese food in. I was a big time cichlid enthusiast back in the 80s. The shops around here weren't carrying enough of a variety to suit me and I didn't like having to order in fish or drive a 100 miles just to see if they had anything interesting. More than anything I think I just wanted to have a job doing something I enjoyed, as my parents taught our family that there were more important things in life than the love of money. Guess yours didn't send the same message to you. In a way I feel a little bit sorry for you. :wink:

BTW we had Petco move in right down the road less than a mile away a few years back. Here's another question for you. If they're so much better how come were still here? I will tell you I opened my business on a shoe string nearly 20 years ago, but now I own a 8,750 sq ft commercial building on an acre of prime real estate, got a nice house, two nice cars, a zero turn lawn mower 8) , Canon 10D, and enough toys and possessions to make even a greedy capitalist like you happy. Also I don't have a boss or stock holders to please. I'm sure the Petco boys have a much better plan for world domination than I could ever dream up. All I ever wanted to do was sell a few fish and enjoy myself doing it. I may never be filthy rich, but you know I just don't really give a happy rat's ass.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

to rover:
Good points. All the more reason to try something new, if the current methods aren't working so hot. Maybe?

 

[Anonymous]

Who said they weren't working? Things are doing just great, I'm just trying to protect my long term supply. Just like any opther business would.

 

[Johnsteph10]

Wow, there are a lot of good points here...Back to a LFS around here as an example.

This one particular LFS has a stranglehold on the suppliers for this area. If you want to find another store, you gotta drive for 30mins or so to Colombia, SC or even just say screw it and drive to Atlanta. What does that mean? It means that the 4 (yes, FOUR!) other stores that have tried to come in in the last 2 years (just 2!) that were all locally owned, operated, and employed locals died a horrible, twitching death. Does this make this one LFS better to more like PetCo? Their employees suck. Customer service is bad. They talk out of their butt about things they have no idea about like yes, this is a parrot fish...sure he'll do fine in a 55gallon. The employees (all male) sit and drool and make comments about all the women that walk in...with 4 ppl waiting in line...etc.

My butt is what I say.

It is just like Rover has said -- it's all about the money! He talks about how well he does. The LFS i've talked about clears $100k a month easily. The store smells funky because of the carpet and the owner is too cheap to do something about it.

I realize that other stores aren't run like this (thank God) but the LFS isn't some Golden Idol to be put up on an altar and admired from afar.

Rover -- I hope your store continues to flourish. A store for hobbyists by a hobbyist (with a nice house, cars, and a zero-turning radius lawnmower!).

Phew....too many comments to comment on.

John

 

[Anonymous]

WAAAAHHH!!! Dizzy, that's actually a pretty good concept, getting into the fish trade <hee!> to make <hee!hee!> MONEY!

Hwa, I fault the powers that be at Petco for many, many things, but gaining a fair market share isn't quite one of them. If they can do it fairly, and not simply suck up livestock to kill. I never saw death on the scale I did while I was there.

 

[mark78]

You're telling me they're trying the distribution center AGAIN? You're telling me they found new exporters??

nonono that entire statment was purley hypothetical sorry.

 

[Anonymous]

Athens isn't *that* far from Augusta.

 

[Anonymous]

I never saw death on the scale I did while I was there.

What kinda scale are we talking about here? PM if you have to...I'm curious...

Peace,

Chip

 

[Fozza]

So let me get this right.

Your saying people are starting up fish store businesses, cause they love aquariums and not to make money?

Your saying fish stores don't actually make a profit on selling livestock?

 

[clarionreef]

Hawarang,
I just re-read your defense PETCOs right to exist.
It took no talent and no heart to write it down at all.
Simply think of McDonalds hamburgers and how their wonderful formula for business has improved child nutrition, :roll: curbed obesity, and made calories and grease basic food items.
Sure they have brilliant inventory, image and cash flow strategies. Sure they have knocked the hell out of a million competitors and would-be competitors. Sure they survive against far more worthwhile food sources.
They have changed how millions eat [and die] and made billions doing it. I search your words and look for anything I can learn from. Anything worthwhile. The kudus you offer to the alter of greed is impressive and the awe in which you hold men with more money then God...to transform our trade as McDonalds did theirs...noteworthy.
Fish, reefs, nature and the search for a sustainable future for it all are beyond your interest...as they are beyond the interest of corporate Petco.
Above all...You like and are impressed by older men with money aren't you?
You are a traitor to the hobby and the trade.
Steve
PS. Economic Darwinist my #@*
Don't flatter yourself by claiming a personal belief system/ethic via economic Naziism...which means the same thing as economic Darwinism..
Mother natures cruelty is not a belief system. Its a scientific fact of life.
What makes some of us Human...is the ability to think and feel beyond biological mechanics.

 

[Anonymous]

So let me get this right.

Your saying people are starting up fish store businesses, cause they love aquariums and not to make money?

Your saying fish stores don't actually make a profit on selling livestock?

Actually, around here, that is the very reason. Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck. One does pay 1 employee for about 12 hours a week. OMG, they are raking in the big bucks!

Hwarang, we still need to discuss your concept about why there are so many fewer farmers now as compared to 1990. If that trend continues, you won't have any food to eat.

 

[Anonymous]

Gee Steve, you'll really win 'em over that way won't you?? - Just like you have with me... :roll:

I really fail to understand your convoluted "visions".. - Especially in terms of WHY it is you're in this biz. I can only begin to imagine the inner-sufferings you must go through on a daily basis if you truly believe 1/2 of what you say. If it were me, I'd get out now and find a relatively unoccupied Tibetan mountain on which to take up residence.

Face it, we're in the midst of global changes, in the development of a real global economy. And yes, we are the locusts, we will most likely eat ourselves right off of this blue ball if a tiny microbe doesn't eat us off of it first. Either way, you have the power of choice.. - Lead, follow or get the *&#@ outta the way.

But I'll guarantee you one thing, you won't win followers by being a pr!@k of misery berating every hobbyist who isn't already following your mantra..

"impressed by older men with money aren't you?"

Truly the stroke of an intellectual mind! Go ahead, remove your hand from where its currently occupied to pat yourself on the back. You're my hero. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

>Not one of the three LFS here take home a personal paycheck.

I dont believe it

 

[Anonymous]

So let me get this right.

Your saying people are starting up fish store businesses, cause they love aquariums and not to make money?

Not exactly. People start up aquarium businesses hoping to make money doing something they enjoy. They need the industry to remain viable and sustainable in order to pay their mortgage. Corporate conglomerates only want to make money, and when the money dries up they move on to other investments.

Your saying fish stores don't actually make a profit on selling livestock?

Not if they are trying to do the right thing and remain competitive. Take a yellow tang for example. Wholesale on it is 10 bucks, retail is 19-25, retailer pockets 10-15. You first have to add the cost of air freight to the cost of the fish. Now suppose this is a good fish store that quarantines all arrivals for one week before purchase to make sure that their customers don't bring anything into their tanks they don't want. So add the cost of housing the fish for one full week to the cost of the fish. Now suppose this good fish store uses only the best foods, makes sure he has the highest quality salt mix, and uses the appropriate buffers to provide the optimal water quality in order to provide a healthy, stress free specimen to their customers, so add one weeks supply of food, salt, and buffers to the cost of the fish. SO after the one week quarantine the fish gets moved out to the main system. Healthy, eating like a pig, alert and vibrant. But if the tank isn't clean, he won't sell so employees are necessary to clean the tanks and maintain the proper parameters on the larger system as well. So add the cost of the one weeks supply of food, plus salt and buffers for a 2000 gallon system, plus the wages for an employee (including social security, unemployment insurance and workers comp insurance). Now here is the kicker..... This is the requirement to keep the fish healthy and for sale for one week. Each day that goes by, the cost of the fish to the lfs goes up, while the retail price stays the same. So a fish that orginally had 15 bucks profit built in, becomes less and less profitable the longer the fish stays there. So if it takes two weeks to sell a particular fish (meaning it has been in house for three weeks), you are lucky to break even on it. This wouldn't be a big deal if you knew exactly what would sell and when before you bought it, but throw into the mix the fact that the majority of the stuff the lfs buys is sight unseen. Get and ugly fish, or drab coral and you are stuck with it. So we take stabs in the dark in order to have enough variety to attract customers on a weekly basis, hoping to sell the stuff we got before it eats us out of house and home.

$50 yellow tangs any one? :mrgreen:

 

[clarionreef]

Sally,
His point was that they were wiped out by industrial mechanization and corporate farming. In the beginning of the century 30% of all Americans were farmers. Now it 4%.
His erroneous assumption was that they just converted to other work.
The wipe-out of the American farmer has been an epic tragedy.
One that has filled slums and trailer parks all over the land...at great counter- cost to society.
The social costs are beyond the capacity to measure by cold-blooded economic empiracists though. These costs were shifted to the public sector to burden taxpayers and society in general.
Mega migrant worker and pesticide farming on the industrial scale is what we are now blessed with.
Hail efficiency.
Soon will we 'save churches money' by worshipping at more efficient virtual alters and hear sermons by pre-taped pastors...projected on screen. Sermons of the day selected by a click of the mouse.
My only point is...just how much to you really want to diminish the human element in everything we do. Our culture is lonely enough [ cough...computer geek... cough } and needs more human contact and interaction...not less.
Replacing human elements just because you can is not a good thing automatically. It has an effect of making us even more cold blooded.
Steve