Petco

[Johnsteph10]

Wow -- doesn't even look like any petcos that I've ever been in..
One thing about LFS...we all talk about them like they are the greatest thing...what about the one's that such -- there are plenty of them out there...I can think of 2 here that are awful: they always get goniopora, flame scallops, 12 inch queen angels, etc...and continue to sell that to the unbeknowst wouldbe aquarist..

It's the ppl at the store and their knowledge of fishkeeping that makes the store. They provide the service, the stock, and the expertise. If you have to pay a little more, so what? If all you have is a sucky fish store with crap that you can't keep -- this kind of petco may be part of the answer to whiddle away the crap and have the good stuff.

Whew.

John

 

[Anonymous]

According to my atlas Rome has over 45k. As my buddy kalk would say "do the math".

Your buddy is kalk??? And you *admit* it???

Rome now has 25k since the air force base left.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Was that a printed atlas Mitch, or did you gather the info via the net?

 

[Anonymous]

might i remind all that the only consumer segment petco really needs to focus on to grow is the group of 90% of the startout aquarists that typically quit w/in a year anyway, and keep up w/each new yearly batch

even if the 10%remaining that typically advance to hobbyist level come FROM the 'petco' noobs, the 'slash and burn' of the 'lowballer sales companies' still continues


regardless of whether or not one's particular independent establishment is affected or not-the petco's template's net result will only be a speeding up of the arrival date of forced regulation of the biz, imo

seems like mebbe this is overdue for the pet industry as a whole, not just the fish biz?

i have some moral issues w/how the pet industry affects our cultural perceptions of livestock as 'property', and the severe lack of self policing this industry is willing to tackle on its own

iggies

hyacinth macaws

reefs

millions of unwanted dogs, cats, ferrets, rabbits

the list is huge

and it won't get shorter as long as pijac, and the movers and shakers of the mainstream pet biz (like petco, mac, among others) have a buck to make off of the commerce of livestock and supplies :wink:

look at how many drygoods manufacturers help support the box stores squash the competition and the higher quality stores-the very same manufacturers that are dependent on the long term viability of this hobby to ensure their own :wink:

how many buckets of instant ocean sold at a petco does it take to close an independent lfs??

how many times did iams promise independents that they would NEVER sell their product to supermarkets ? (not a fish example, but relevant).

how many tr clowns from ora sold via the 'boxes' equals a closed lfs ?


a can of worms indeed, and the solutions are probably to be found not just within the aquarium sector of the pet industry, imo.

 

[dizzy]

Was that a printed atlas Mitch, or did you gather the info via the net?

Printed. It does say 1990 census populations were used. I guess I need to buy a new one before my next trip. I'm sure Chip is right aout the decrease, because an awful lot of yankees have been moving to the Southland in recent years. At least I finally got someone (vitz) to agree that no matter how good ya think ya are, you won't be able to sell from an empty wagon. And one more thing. As far as claiming to be green cause ya sell tanked raised fish, Petco does that too. Here's a rumor to chew on with the Petco news, Petsmart may be considering doing something similar. I got a little hint of it at MO.
Mitch

 

[dizzy]

i have some moral issues w/how the pet industry affects our cultural perceptions of livestock as 'property', and the severe lack of self policing this industry is willing to tackle on its own

Gosh vitz, I don't know how to break this to you, but the pet industry didn't originate this concept of animals as property. Did you ever consider the fact it may have come from our rural beginnings as an agricultural society? And believe it or not, a lot of people treat their pets better than some people treat their kids. It's not exactly a perfect world. Do you really expect the pet industry to be any better? As far as self policing goes look at all the cigarette smokers and fat people.

 

[Anonymous]

i have some moral issues w/how the pet industry affects our cultural perceptions of livestock as 'property', and the severe lack of self policing this industry is willing to tackle on its own

Gosh vitz, I don't know how to break this to you, but the pet industry didn't originate this concept of animals as property. Did you ever consider the fact it may have come from our rural beginnings as an agricultural society? And believe it or not, a lot of people treat their pets better than some people treat their kids. It's not exactly a perfect world. Do you really expect the pet industry to be any better? As far as self policing goes look at all the cigarette smokers and fat people.

where did i say the industry originated the concept?

i said i have issues w/the way it AFFECTS our cultural perceptions of livestock as they are now-where it originated is moot.

the question is how to best deal w/it

please learn to not put words in other peoples mouth

 

[dizzy]

[where did i say the industry originated the concept?

i said i have issues w/the way it AFFECTS our cultural perceptions of livestock as they are now-where it originated is moot.

the question is how to best deal w/it

please learn to not put words in other peoples mouth

vitz,
Please explain your defintion of cultural perceptions of livestock. To me cultures are people who have a common history.

 

[Anonymous]

might i remind all that the only consumer segment petco really needs to focus on to grow is the group of 90% of the startout aquarists that typically quit w/in a year anyway, and keep up w/each new yearly batch

even if the 10%remaining that typically advance to hobbyist level come FROM the 'petco' noobs, the 'slash and burn' of the 'lowballer sales companies' still continues

Uh, no, they don't. Petco's profits are, were, and always have been in DOG FOOD. That one product alone carries the vast bulk of their profits and whatever else the company may wish to dabble in.

 

[Anonymous]

Black96ws6 Escondido is off I-15...Its east you cant miss it

 

[Anonymous]

Uh, no, they don't. Petco's profits are, were, and always have been in DOG FOOD. That one product alone carries the vast bulk of their profits and whatever else the company may wish to dabble in.

No one makes money on dog food. It simply gets traffic in the door (Average margin is 10-20%). Profits are from treats, toys, accesories. Like no one makes any money on the tank, but on the gravel, supplements, food, etc.

I can think of 2 here that are awful: they always get goniopora, flame scallops, 12 inch queen angels, etc...and continue to sell that to the unbeknowst wouldbe aquarist..

There are bad businesses in every industry. Bad restourants that violate health codes, bad landlords that operate slums, used car salesmen, etc. Increased competition will always serve to run off the riff raff. The problem is when the good guys get thrown out with the bad.

but things are a bit different in a highly specialized hobby that relies upon the knowledge of employees for long-term customer success -- when petco moves-in and offers the newbie the entire universe for a 30% discount over the LFS, newbie probably goes there... but after a year when they've experienced their 5th tank crash due to bad advice or incorrect information and they've never been able to solve their algae bloom, they either exit the hobby or find the quality LFS that can save their investment. and certainly anyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time will most likely avoid petco like the plague.

Petco doesn't usually hurt the LFS on price as they aren't that cheap, (the net is still cheaper). They hurt by being able to market themsleves really well. Advertising, promotions, specials, etc. They tend to sell a lot of overpriced cheap crap. But they have a ton of it, and are able top market it extremelt effectively and efficiently.

The traditional LFS can compete by having healthier stock and more knowledgeable employees. If Petco and other large corps can take over the distribution of the livestock, (the way they control other aspects of the pet industry) it could effectively put the squeeze on the smaller unorganized shops regardless of if they are "good" or "bad".

agree with Chip, a good store with knowledgeable staff and a quality product will indeed develop a pretty good strangle hold on the other local businesses if they don't deliver similar service. It happens in my area every day, people converting over to the outdated and just plain bad advice given to them by the other crappy stores over here. Once they realize that you have a clue and the other guys don't, you've got them for the duration of their hobby

But keep in mind that the livestock supply is limited as it is and continuing to shrink.

Also, I doubt a Petco will open up in every single market where there are mom & pop stores in this entire country while I'm working in the industry. It's simply not possible.

In the Atlanta Metro area there are over 60 box stores.

Are *you* worried, Glenn?

Yes. Ever try to get some ORA clowns when Petco is doing a grand opening? I'm not "scared", but I'm always worried. My landlord tried to evict me last month in order to move in a Pet Supplies Plus. Tried to charge me a year's worth of CAM charges in order to put me in default of my lease. Didn't work though, and I told him to go ahead and move them in, if he wanted two pet stores in one shopping center that was his decision but I wasn't going anywhere. So there is always something to worry about, and when you don't know what it is, is when you should get scared.

I hope they all try this scheme (Petco, Petsmart, etc). I'm convinced it won't work, and the more money they spend on it the bigger their failure will be. My concerns is wether or not they will screw things up for the rest of the industry when they go down in flames.

 

[Anonymous]

There is nothing wrong with the big stores as long as they are quality joints. If Petco changes and drops their old ways maybe they will be a contender. I like mom and pop stores, but if Walmart comes to town I'll go there if the price is right. Sorry mom and pop.

Time will tell.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see a pic of that little reef in 6 months and see how many corals are still alive.

 

[Anonymous]

Additionally, the reason big box stores are called big box stores is because they are able to by their products direct from the manufacturers (ie in big boxes). They cut out the middle man distributor that the mom and pops deal with. The allows them to make higher margins on lower prices. But in order to do so, they must warehouse and ship from their own distribution center. It makes no sense for them to set up a livestock distributor for marine fish as the overhead will eat away any and all margins, by having to house the animals for a longer period of time. SO they tend to use local distibutors for their livestock purchases. We have one of the largest fish wholesalers in the East Coast in Atlanta. Just recently they picked up all of the Petco accounts. I know of serveral times when we have been shorted needed bread and butter items because their stock was low and it all went to their best customer. (guess who). Try running an aquarium shop without feeder goldfish, neon tetras, and plecos. We solved the problem by going straight to the farms in Florida, but I that option won't exist for salt water.

Another thing is the innovation that the Mom and Pop's bring. Big box stores thrive on the old reliable sellers and will not bring in new items, new designs, new technology, etc. Do you really think the Seaclone was designed at the request of the Mom and Pop store? Where will new ideas come from if the good independents out there are constanty developing a market for the newest and best?

 

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see a pic of that little reef in 6 months and see how many corals are still alive.

Uh, try 2 months :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Uh, no, they don't. Petco's profits are, were, and always have been in DOG FOOD. That one product alone carries the vast bulk of their profits and whatever else the company may wish to dabble in.

No one makes money on dog food. It simply gets traffic in the door (Average margin is 10-20%). Profits are from treats, toys, accesories. Like no one makes any money on the tank, but on the gravel, supplements, food, etc.

Rover, I don't think you were able to get a gander at certain "privileged" information at any point, were you? I can tell you that I was, and the profits in dog food are there. From what I've heard through the grapevine, they still are. Don't believe me? Ask Bob.

Additionally, the reason big box stores are called big box stores is because they are able to by their products direct from the manufacturers (ie in big boxes). <snip> But in order to do so, they must warehouse and ship from their own distribution center. It makes no sense for them to set up a livestock distributor for marine fish as the overhead will eat away any and all margins, by having to house the animals for a longer period of time. SO they tend to use local distibutors for their livestock purchases.

I was the outside hire when they tried exactly that.

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say I'm impressed by the new petco setup. I'll gladly buy corals from Petco if they are nice and cheap. It's all about price. IF I could get that yellow finger leather for $20 at petco, Guess what- I'm taking it home.

I try to support ma and pa stores, but price is what gets me. I know about the bigger markup on inventory from a small store. I understand they have to do that to make a buck. I support them when they are close in price, but if we're talking a $20 difference on a bucket of salt, I'll go with petco.

B

 

[Anonymous]

Rover, I don't think you were able to get a gander at certain "privileged" information at any point, were you? I can tell you that I was, and the profits in dog food are there. From what I've heard through the grapevine, they still are. Don't believe me?

There isn't that much "priviledged information in this industry. They don't make very much money per bag. I know, because that's how they changed the face of the industry so drastically. When a Petsmart opens up, they typically sell their food at below cost for the first six months just to draw people in. The strategy is volume. It doesn't matter if you only make a dollar a bag if you sell 10 million bags. So we are both right. At the end of the year, food may be where the bulk of their profits are from, but because of the volume, not the profit per bag.

I was the outside hire when they tried exactly that.

Didn't work very well did it?

 

[JennM]

Interesting thread - any way to copy this to the Indusry forum? I think a few there might benefit from it, who might not come topside...

Those photos give me cause for concern... but not so much for me as for the BAD mom and pop full-line place near me - I'd think that would be the final death nell for them. I think it would hurt me too... to a point.

I am not sure which way it would go either ... yes it increases awareness, and I have HUGE concerns about the finite nature of livestock supply. There will always be more Instant Ocean and Mag Drive pumps... but there are only so many fish and corals.

A few have implied that Petco will put away the "bad" shops that sell Goniopora and Flame Scallops - are you implying that Petco won't carry them? I beg to differ - I would think that if educated Mom and Pops aren't stocking them, they have to go somewhere, and where better than a Petco, where an unsuspecting newb can take it home for a bargain-basement price?

IMO this is a HUGE step in the wrong direction.

Those stores typically do not make money on the livestock but on the peripherals, and from what I've been told by someone in one large chain, they actually expect the aquatics dept to lose money but it's well offset by the profits gleaned in other departments - they make money on foods, toys, collars, beds, kennels and stuff and the aquatics stuff is there for the convenience of the "pet parent" so he can have one-stop shopping for all his companion animal needs.

The key difference I think, is that in addition to good advice and service, I just don't think that the big chains with their high turnover, can provide the kind of relationship that a mom and pop can. People LOVE to talk about their tanks... I've spent countless hours listening to people gush about everything from guppies to groupers... and if they find an interested ear they will talk all day. People like to come in and know that I'll know their name, or at least their tank/inhabitants... ask how their last purchase is doing... that is the "edge" that I'll have over the biggies when they come. I hope that I have enough of a foothold by then, to survive.

Business is funny - sometimes it's the best thing in the world to have a competitor open up across the street because it raises the bar for everybody - and I read the story of David and Goliath...

Just because a big box moves in, doesn't mean that the good stores are as good as gone, but it is definitely a wake up call for all, especially the bad ones.

Yes I'd like to see a follow up in 30-60-90 days. Time will tell - those MARS systems look pretty spiffy now... but what about long-term?

Last time I was in a Petco was about 2 1/2 years ago. I needed some antibiotics for a sick seahorse... this was a brand new store - had been open about a month but I came in the Monday after their "grand opening" bash. The place was disgusting. Had to find somebody cleaning bird cages to help me find out that they didn't have what I needed in aquatics. Dead/sick fish in overstocked systems - clowns with cotton-mouth, dead chromis on the intake pipes... it was heartbreaking. I had to pass the fuzzies, and their cages all stunk (and I used to keep rodents, I know they have an aroma... this was nasty!).

I had to use the restroom and even that was disgusting, at opening time on a Monday morning ... guess nobody bothered to clean up the aftermath of the grand opening BBQ and festivities.

I was so upset I wrote an email to Petco head office. I received a condescending reply explaining "new tank syndrome" and that this was "normal". I couldn't believe it. I wrote back, explaining that I worked in the trade, and I know all about proper cycling of systems and that there was no need to subject fish to this, and that it was unconsionable to sell sick fish - they weren't marked "under observation/not for sale" or anything - anybody could have had Typhoid Nemo bagged up to go.

Needless to say I never set foot in that one or any other, since.

When another such store opened near one of my maintenance customer's homes, he went there and bought 8 ocellaris clowns for $8 apiece... "because they were on sale"... I never knew he had bought them because the aggressive fishes in his 225 g tank had killed them off before I did my next service - his wife told me about that.

What Mom and Pop store, worth its salt, would bag up 8 clownfish for anybody without asking a few questions?

What scares me the most I guess, is that I work to EDUCATE customers. Most are responsive to that, but many are not. Double-edged sword - if I teach them to research their purchases, then they can make educated, cheap purchases at Petco- no more need for LFS advice when armed with books and the Internet. Then the other faction, the one that doesn't know/doesn't care will be enabled to make all the stupid mistakes in the world, at rock-bottom prices....

On the other hand, the increased visibility of the hobby will attract more people to it... assuming that some of those will begin to shop around, it can bring more people to me... the existing nasty shop does that now (their staff send shoppers to me!). I've had Petsmart employees send me customers....

I don't know - just my garbled thoughts on the matter but I intend to follow it with interest.

BTW Glenn - do you not have an exclusivity clause in your lease? I do - no other pet shop in the mall. Check your lease if you haven't already - you might be able to stymie that if he wants to move the other place in.

Jenn

 

[HClH2OFish]

God I hate Petco. I *do* shop there, as we have 3 dogs, 2 cats, a mulbrella cockatoo, and a hedgehog...needless to say our pet expenses are $$. I usually will buy some supplies (salt, filters) if I'm there and I need them.
That said, their husbandry SUX (as we all know). I always chew out the manager when I see them selling Mandarins as 'beginner' fish and their tangs are almost skeletal from starvation, etc. etc.

My quandry is simply this....I see their SW tanks and I'm always tempted to buy one or two of the poor critters to make a better home for them.
Ocean hermits? $5.99 Psychedelic Mandarin? $19.99 Coral beauty? $19.99 Sometimes it's very tempting..
I've considered buying some of the exotics they occasionally get and donating them to a quality LFS I frequent...at least they'll have a better chance of being sold to someone who knows how to take care of them.

If I give Petco my $$ it simply helps perpetuate the same standards they currently have. 'No drop in SW sales? Don't change a thing!'
I just don't know how much of a change the knowledgeable aquarist can exert on them, as this isn't the segment driving their sales..it's the uninformed.

And knowing this we come again to my quandry....I know my *not* buying from them isn't really going to hurt them. So if I do buy from them, I could save that cute bicolor blenny or that nice niger trigger... right? :?

*sigh* I'm torn...I suppose if they started hiring people who actually *KNEW* what they were doing and the animals were treated better, I would find the choice much easier to make...