• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

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jamesw

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Mandarinfish:

Being insensed about some of the things that go on in this hobby is good! Like the bumper sticker says:

"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."

Be outraged...please! But I don't think it's right to project that toward us, simply because we have created a forum to discuss these issues.

That makes absolutely NO sense to me. That would be sort of like shooting down the people that can do the most good.

Cheers
James Wiseman
 

naesco

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Bill2
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What do you mean by your post? I see you posted it twice.
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hhinojosa

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Dave,

I admire your long history as a conservationist. However, I am amazed at your naivete'. For someone who has 1300+ posts to leave this forum on the basis of the forum bringing in an importer is hypocritical.

Maybe the forum needs a sponsor. Maybe they thought they could get the members better deals. Maybe they thought they could even educate some members to consume more responsibly...(i.e. Buy corals they can care for, learn how to care for their livestock).

Do you refuse to eat some produce because the workers are paid substandard wages? Do you refuse to shop for clothing in department stores because maybe child labor made that dress shirt or blouse?

There are many inequities in the world. Your decision to pontificate on importers leaves me unimpressed. I'd prefer if you had said you no longer had anything to contribute or just faded away.
 

MaryHM

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Maybe the forum needs a sponsor. Maybe they thought they could get the members better deals.

Just for the record, I'm not contributing any money to reefs.org for this forum. And I'm certainly not offering any deals!
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It is strictly an educational forum- how many of you have the ability to talk to an importer/wholesaler? I'd guess very few. How many of you get animals that have come through an importer/wholesaler? I'd guess most of you. If you're going to be a responsible consumer, you need to know the facts about the industry you support. That's what the forum is for.
 

naesco

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JamesW

You posted
"We have created a forum to discuss these issues"

Are you suggesting that the ethics of importing and keeping certain impossible to keep fish and corals is now only to ocurr in the industry forum?

What do you mean by 'these issues"'?
Thank you
 
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Anonymous

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I too picked up on the football analogy


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
To pick up the ball and go home" as James so eloquently put it is probalby opposite of what should be done if you have real concerns with the industry

I see it very differently, which I discussed with james privately, so I will only post what I wrote.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>I understand your football analogy. I would say it is not taking the ball and going home with but deciding that the team I am a part of has made a call I can not endorse and do not want to be a part of a team that is making the same mistake that many other people who are in a place of influence in a field that determines life and death of species. Your web site has become a resource that many have come to use. I am sure that there are many who use it that are not members.

I have seen the damage that has been done by unethical Importers and because of this many organizations have kept Importers at arms length to minimize the effect that the importers that have no moral compass can do. If Mary had the insight to take losses by seeing when regulation is necessary it would still be a horrible call to put Importers in a place of influence because you are endorsing the unethical importers at the same time.

I am sure you will remember when New York was putting the dangerous Animal ban together, Mary had not even read the piece of legislation and posted on the board that we must defeat this bill. She did tone it down after she actually became knowledgeable of this ban but it is this type of uneducated knee jerk reaction that can do so much damage.

Your board is fast becoming a place that will have a significant role to play in the keeping of very rare and endangered species. You must chose very carefully who you will assign leadership to. I think the record is unbelievablely clear from the past who pays the ultimate price when Importers play too large a role in the leadership of the animals they trade. You have given rise to a conflict of interest that most people try to avoid, one were lives of species hang in the balance when that trust is broken.

Everyone should have a voice but not everyone who clearly has a conflict of interest should have influence, even more so when the history is clear.

Dave<hr></blockquote>

I am not asking anyone to do anything. I just gave the reason I will not be a part of this board.

I beleive That any business has the right to do what the want to under the law. It is just very clear in the history of the sale of animals that whenever importers have to much influence in the trade business, the animals suffer for it. The history of this is painfully clear.

Having a moderator that has such a gross conflict of intrest is something that I cannot be a part of.
 

JimMurray

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Are you still here... Are you leaving or not? Or is it just your way of getting attention? Sorry, I don't see the point of announcing that you're leaving and then continuing to post in the forum you claim has sold out. I for one think there is plenty of room for everyones opinion, even those that I disagree with, sorry you don't feel the same.
Don't let the door hit you in a** on the way out.
 

Gatortailale1

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The only thing a moderator can do on the board, IMO, is close a thread, edit a post, or ban a member. I don't think they have any more power than that. If the comments are made respectfully, a moderator shouldn't have to do anything. She ask for respect in posts and set out the rules right off the cuff. Not to go on, and on about this, but I post my opinion no matter what if I think it's valid. I'm sure many disagree with it or think I'm ignorant. However, I don't let the fear of a moderator (even it there is some far removed implication that they could be biased) change my post, or the way I post.

If the forum is used to discuss the issues, she can only voice her opinions. People can take it for what it is. I think Mary is always upfront in making it clear she is importer/wholesaler.

[Malfunction, need input input input ........ Feed the machine
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]

Craig
 

Bishop1

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Sometimes I wish if people chose to go, for whatever reason, they would just quietly walk away instead of making some self-important statement.
 

naesco

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Come on fellas.
Where is your manners?
Dave has contributed 1500 posts to this board. He has helped numerous reefers with their problems.Whether you agree or disagree with the issue he has raised is fair play.
To suggest that he is not entitled to leave on his terms is an insult to him and the reefers on this board that he has helped.
 
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Anonymous

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I'm in agreement with Naesco. Dave stated is objections in a gracious and gentlemanly manner; unlike a couple of other members that have posted to this thread.
 

Anemone

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slk3599:
<strong>I'm in agreement with Naesco. Dave stated is objections in a gracious and gentlemanly manner; unlike a couple of other members that have posted to this thread.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, but his objections all amount to he doesn't like Mary's business, and because of her business she will lead all us ignorant hicks down the road to destroying the reefs.

He brands Mary on the basis of the history of importers in other fields, not based on her comments, performance, or the work she has done in the few groups actually trying to make our hobby "sustainable" (rather than a burn-out a few years or decades down the road).

So, it basically comes down to, if any importer is allowed any say or influence in the process of determining what is best for the long-term in our hobby, Dave doesn't want any part of it. In fact, it's either Dave's way (no importer anywhere near any discussion of bans or quotas), or the highway (Dave makes high-profile, attention getting exit from BBS).

I have appreciated Dave's point of view on many topics, but this thread has (in my mind) moved him from "valuable input" to "fanatic fringe."

Those who leave no room for compromise are basically a waste of breath to talk to.

Just my opinion,

Kevin

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Anemone ]</p>
 

tazdevil

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I wish you would reconsider, look at it this way: If Mary was to discriminate against posts that questioned ethics etc. I'm sure chucker/james/et. al. would remove her from that forum. Give her a chance, although I can understand your misgivings. BTW, do we really know that jamesw, chucker, or any moderator doesn't work for the buisiness themselves? If they do, they don't let it show- I really think you should stay, and keep your posts coming!
 
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Anonymous

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Those who leave no room for compromise are basically a waste of breath to talk to.

<hr></blockquote>
Anemone:

Doesn't this description fit practically every member of The Pontificating Society
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Seems to me after spending alot of time reading the posts in The Sump, that very few sump dwellers are willing to compromise - whether its discussing the sustainability of reefs or the war in Afghanistan.
 

mridgep

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By running you help the enemy. Your silence contributes to the demise of good.

By fighting, through education, you convert the enemy to gain another fighter.

This is why most of us are reefers. We love to educate others because we care about the ocean life.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO STAYS IN THE FIGHT, YOU ARE MY TRUE FRIENDS. I DON'T KNOW YOU BUT I LOVE YOU FOR THE GOOD YOU CONTINUE TO DO, THROUGH EDUCATION.
 

FishHead1

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Dave - Don't go. I've learned a lot from you and owe a lot of my reef's success to your input. Stick around and help us keep an eye on Mary.
 
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Anonymous

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by danny150:
[QB]You seem very knowledgeable and I would ask that you post a list of fish and corals that you consider most at risk from this hobby. I realize that tank-raised is the way to go, but where I live it is very rarely if ever offered, and this list could serve as a guide for myself and others of what to avoid at the fish store.<hr></blockquote>

This was a direct question so before allwoing the door to hit me on the A$$, I should offer something.

I have always enjoyed Reefs.org liberal policy on moderation. A thread like this could not even begun without being edited and burned on Reef Central.

I do believe the list which is a great piece of knowledge would best be asked of Eric Boneman at

www.reefcentral.com

He would know the status of corals far better than I. To enter his forum you must first register. I would also try a search on both reefs.org and reefcentral, the list might already be there for you.

Good Luck
 
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