Help! Angle has Ich

[pmui]

this is very interesteing topic, i didn't realize it was so hottly debated.

 

[marrone]

A temperature and ph adjusted fresh water dip is perfectly safe for fish. If I believed that a fresh water dip cured ich I wouldn't have said treat with copper after. But a fresh water dip will help other problems that might be noticed after the fish are put in the quaratine and not before.

If you act how? Are you saying using a hypo/copper treatment or just feeding garlic?

So you are saying you should act timely and not wait weeks to do something, correct?

What I'm saying is a fresh water dip does nothing for ich and your just stressing out the fish even further. It's just not need plain and simple, specially if your going to start treating with copper or Hypso.

 

[cali_reef]

If garlic doesn't kill ich, how is feeding a fish garlic and hoping that their immune system gets better any different from just leaving the fish alone in good water and hoping that its immune system gets better? How do you know the garlic is improving their immune system?

Maybe the ich falls off the fish from the stench after the fish consumed enough garlic:lol:, I am not sure why either. I have used about 12 bottles of Kent Garlic Extreme during the last few years when I see ich on my fish, the parasite always seems to fall off and disappear a lot sooner comparing to not feeding the same frozen food soaked in it.



I also run a 40W UV 24/7 in my 600 gallon system and treat new fish with a form of copper before introducing into the system. I do believe the right amount of copper will kill any invertebrate, that has been proven in our hobby too many times. FWIW, I don?t think you can have an ich-free system, they will always come back if your fish becomes weak enough for them to live on.

 

[marrone]

0.2 ppm - Cupramine is effective on ich.
0.5 ppm - Recommended level to treat ich by Seachem.
0.8 ppm - Dangerous for fish.

Yeah so what that have to do with not killing all strain of ich. Of coarse if you place enough copper in a tank you kill everything.

 

[Deanos]

Since marrone and kimoyo are starting to snipe each other's comments instead of providing advice to pmui, we should believe they'll be taking this argument to the confines of PMs shortly.

 

[kimoyo]

Do you think that a fish can fight off ich by itself?

The problem with your thinking is that our aquariums are not the ocean. In the ocean the ich would drop off the fish and the fish would just swim away. But in our aquariums the ich drops off the fish, multiplies, and then goes after the same fish in a convined space once again. And the fish keeps getting weaker and weaker. Because they don't have the ocean to help them we have to.

Do you think that feeding a fish health food that builds up it's strength and help it immume system isn't good? And how do you know that garlic isn't improving their immun system. Getting a fish to eat during any diseases is very important and keeping the fish alive and strong enough to fight off the diseases is part of that. Everything plays a part, food, water conditions and medication. I think you need to get over the fact that you don't see it written down some, garlic, and see that it has worked in some case.

I'll give you my example. Back in October I got a fire angel and put him in my tank right away, this is before I read about ich and quarantining fish. After a few days he showed signs of ich. At that point I tried to learn as much as I could. I listened to people saying feed him garlic so I did. I feed my fish garlic, selcon and metronidazole with focus. During this entire time they all ate. Some people told me that I should just do Copper but I didn't have an extra tank or room for one and didn't want to get my fish out of the tank with the rocks. So I figured since people kept saying garlic works I just do it that way. After a little more than one week of feeding the fire angel and a hippo tang died, my smallest fish. I decided the next day to get a new tank and treat with copper. Luckily inkblue had found 20 tanks and I got one for a quaratine. I have it sitting on the floor right next to my bed and it took me 10 minutes total to get all my fish out after using some of Calfo's techniques. My fish have been in quarantine 3 weeks and have no more ich. Its just my experience but my point is some might get lucky with garlic (or doing nothing) and some don't. I'm glad you have been lucky.

 

[herman]

What it all boils down to is to prevent ich. Most of the people that post problems with ich are the very people that do not quarantine the fish and do not acclimate them propoerly.

Fact of the matter is the lifecycle of the protozoan is very complex and extremely difficult if not impossible to erradicate from an aquarium. Ich affects almost all species of fish with a few exceptions.

Some survivors of an Ich infection can become latent carriers, with the parasites forming a latent stage at protected sites such as the base of fins or the gills. Negect of somekind resulting in poorer qualities of the water stresses the fish leaving its immune system suseptible to a reinfection.

The problem with most people entering this hobby is that are reluctant to quarantine due to the need of instant gratification and subsequently they scream ICH at which point they think it is something that can be cured within a very short timeframe without any worries whatsoever.

What can I say guys - Tough luck!! QUARANTINE QUARANTINE QUARANTINE. Its the only way to handle this problem. Now if some of you think that by Quarantine I mean quickly seting up a tank on the day that you buy the fish, then you are worng again because the newly set up tank does not have sufficient biological filtration to sustain the fish. That is a whole other topic.

The point I am making is not to argue what will cure it but you guys should advocate prevention.

 

[marrone]

The problem with your thinking is that our aquariums are not the ocean. In the ocean the ich would drop off the fish and the fish would just swim away. But in our aquariums the ich drops off the fish, multiplies, and then goes after the same fish in a convined space once again. And the fish keeps getting weaker and weaker. Because they don't have the ocean to help them we have to.

This maybe true but the problem with this is that fish have fought off ich in home aquariums without using copper/hypo. Some from using garlic and some because the fish has gotten strong, which could be from the garlic, better water condition or UV, all of this has let the fish fight it off. Also if you go principle that once you have ich in your tank, and you don't treat it with copper/hypo, you going to lose every single fish and that just isn't the case.

Not saying that you shouldn't use copper or hypo but other thing do work also.

 

[kimoyo]

Yeah so what that have to do with not killing all strain of ich. Of coarse if you place enough copper in a tank you kill everything.

Where are you getting this, I am very interested? If you have a reputable reference I will agree with you.

What I'm saying is a fresh water dip does nothing for ich and your just stressing out the fish even further. It's just not need plain and simple, specially if your going to start treating with copper or Hypso.

There are a few common diseases that are treated with fresh water dips. And if there is ich not deep enough in the fish they can be killed also. It is not a necessary step but I don't want to treat for other diseases while treating for ich at the same time. If the fish is very very sick I won't do it (I might not even move them) but I do feel that freshwater dips are safe. Once I put the fish in the quarantine tank I don't want to move them again until they are done. They are already stressed by the move so I'd rather do it then.

 

[marrone]

What can I say guys - Tough luck!! QUARANTINE QUARANTINE QUARANTINE. Its the only way to handle this problem. advocate prevention.

Kinda says it all. :approve:


Got to stop that instant gratification and think long term.

 

[kimoyo]

This maybe true but the problem with this is that fish have fought off ich in home aquariums without using copper/hypo. Some from using garlic and some because the fish has gotten strong, which could be from the garlic, better water condition or UV, all of this has let the fish fight it off. Also if you go principle that once you have ich in your tank, and you don't treat it with copper/hypo, you going to lose every single fish and that just isn't the case.

I've seen many threads where people used garlic and lost the fish. Is this a 50% cure, 75%, 25% or what? How is this a cure if it only works 25% of the time. And is there any chance that some of the other actions taken could account for it working. How about when people do nothing and the fish survive.

Like I said before, some people can just leave the fish in the tank do nothing and be fine. But this isn't what happens to the majority of hobbyist. I wasn't that lucky and if I had just quarantined my fish I wouldn't have lost any. Steven Pro just automatically treats all his tangs with Cupramine when the come in. If I would have quarantined that fire angel I wouldn't have lost it and my hippo. Cupramine works in 2 weeks, thats all you need.

 

[marrone]

There are a few common diseases that are treated with fresh water dips. And if there is ich not deep enough in the fish they can be killed also. It is not a necessary step but I don't want to treat for other diseases while treating for ich at the same time. If the fish is very very sick I won't do it (I might not even move them) but I do feel that freshwater dips are safe. Once I put the fish in the quarantine tank I don't want to move them again until they are done. They are already stressed by the move so I'd rather do it then.

Since your treating ich here a fresh water dip isn't nessecary and the amount of ich that you'll get with a fresh water dip off of a fish is so small,if any, it's not worth stressing out the fish. Copper will kill any other diseases off so once again the fresh water dip isn't nessecary. What you want to worry about is having the fish get a secondary infection which is usually wrost to the fish than the ich.

 

[marrone]

Where are you getting this, I am very interested? If you have a reputable reference I will agree with you.

What do you consider a "reputable reference" some one of RC or some one in a book? If you look around you'll actually find that there are a # of time where the ich wasn't effect by the copper and all the fish where lost. I've seen it myself happen in a # of tanks. Wipe out from ich is very common, also getting a secondary infection from ich also happens.

And it's a pretty know fact that if you put to much copper in a tank you just about kill everything.

 

[marrone]

Like I said before, some people can just leave the fish in the tank do nothing and be fine. But this isn't what happens to the majority of hobbyist. I wasn't that lucky and if I had just quarantined my fish I wouldn't have lost any. Steven Pro just automatically treats all his tangs with Cupramine when the come in. If I would have quarantined that fire angel I wouldn't have lost it and my hippo. Cupramine works in 2 weeks, thats all you need.

It's not good to treat a fish unless you know he has some thing. Quarantine yes but only treat if you think the fish has some thing.

Like Herman said Quarantine, Quarantine, Quarantine.

 

[kimoyo]

Marrone - I've expressed my views clearly and explained my reasoning while providing references to back it up. I feel at this point you just want to argue and win. So I am removing myself from the discussion with you. I'm happy things worked out for you Marrone and goodluck PMUI whatever you decide.

 

[Deanos]

Phew...I was about to close this thread.

 

[herman]

Phew...I was about to close this thread.

HA HA HA HA

 

[Tonyscoots84]

heated debate. hehehehe this is funny funny funny. i hope the fish is ok dude. any news on the fish.

 

[pmui]

thank you all for the individual views.
I still can't catch this guy from the tank. I've took a long look at him, and believe the ich has run it's course . I'm going to put a 25W UV on this tank till i get my new 120gal. up and running. I will quarente everything that will be going into the new tank, for 6 weeks in a hospital tank to make sure the Ich won't be reintroduced. The Angel is still eatting pretty well, so I'll cross my fingers.

 

[pecan2phat]

Please post your experience. I don't feel like reading through 33 pages :bigeyes2: to catch up. :thanks:

Boy, this thread can get up there with "DSB or Barebottom" Now, no bashing please cause I can get that from RC :lol:

I've been in the hobby since '79 and I'll speak about why I decided to try the product and it's results for me.
Story starts out with this:
Back in July, I had an outbreak of ick in my SPS/clams dominated 120g reef tank. Of course it was due to insufficient quarantining methods with an Achilles that I introduced into the tank a few months prior. I don't treat with meds in quarantine if no symptoms appear and this guy was in my 55g for at least two months. He started showing the telltale signs of the white speaks but not in great numbers and they would fall off and not always reattach. There was no scratching or flashing observed so I left it until I introduced a Chevron. I'm assuming that the stress of the addition brought out the parasite in greater numbers but that's when I decided to treat with Ruby Reef's Kick-Ick. I know that there are a ton more failures than success with this product but it worked once or twice for me in the past 10 years and the small percentage was still better than not trying on my part.
Yes, I tried to catch the fish but had no luck and got lazy!
So I started my treatment and 2/3rds into the treatment, some acros and all my monti caps start to RTN from the base up. I stop the treatment, turned on my skimmer, added carbon and performed a decent size water change and kissed the Kick-Ick goodbye and eventually the two tangs also. No other fish were quite affected like the tangs and I just left it alone.

Fast forward to the end of September and I noticed that my 90g FOWLR is infected. This tank has been ick free of symtoms for 4 years and there were no new additions so it must be from my carelessness of transferring the parasite from the reef tank. (probably from not washing my hands from one tank to the other) I'll admit that I could've taken all the critters and the live rock out & hypo'd the tank but that was hindsight. So since I had a 2L bottle left of Kick-Ick left over, I started to treat. After the first 14 days, things got worse, so I do a 2nd treatment. Then I asked Randy on the chemistry forum whether I should turn off the UV sterilizer and he thinks yes and directs me to some manufacturer's TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM off of Premium Aquatic's website:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...threadid=693921
I read this data and apply the remedy of an 150% dosage with the UV turned off for treatment #3. By this time, I've invested another $100 in the product and start to supplement with their Rally product due to apparent secondary infections taking place. Each treatment is done for 12 days with a rest period of 2 days and a 17% water change to improve water conditions. So by the time I'm into treatment #4, I start to lose my Harlequin tusk, Imperator, Majestic, Annularis & Flame hawk.

This is about the time I came across the NSF banner when I was browsing the Fish Disease forum. I figure what the heck, I'll try it since it looks like the tank would need to broken down soon because the remaining 4 fish did not look good at all.
I started to post on one of the threads on the Fish Disease forum that I was going to try this but right from the beginning, I was labeled a "marketer", a "#1 salesman for NSF" and I haven't even started the treatment or said if there were any positive or negative results.
One of the results that I have experienced is that it is "reef safe" in my application. The reason why I say this is because whatever I was thinking at the time (and it probably wasn't much!), I wanted to try it in the reef tank at the same time. The only other thing that I did was to email NSF and ask again if this product was truely "reef safe" and if it has been tested in tanks with SPS corals. I did not want to lose any additional SPS corals. The reply was absolutely & that it has been tested in SPS tanks with no negative effect.
I've dosed this product into both my tanks twice a day consecutively for 3.5 weeks and have had no RTN'ing on any acros, no negative effects on 7 clams, no negative effects on any shrimps or snails. After the first two weeks, maybe half way into the 3rd week, I did notice that a yellow leather did not expand as much and some of my Candycanes also did not have great expansion.

As for what the product was intended for, here are my results so far:
After the first 7 days, the reef tank appeared good. I base this on a few spots on a True Perc and a Yellow Coris and Bartlett scratching with no spots.
After day 7, I noticed that the spots on the Perc were gone and the Coris & Bartlett were not scratching but I continued to dose as a precaution.
As for the 90g FOWLR, nothing improved but the remaining 4 fish were still alive. Continued to dose.

Around day 9, I receive an email from NSF asking how the meds were working, so I relate my results. I got a call from Tyler at NSF to attempt to troubleshoot my conditions and we come to a conlusion that the residual heavy doses of Kick-Ick & Rally might be affecting the active ingredient in NSF. At this time, I also told him that the reef tank looked good so far & that I will stop dosing that tank in another day or two to conserve the remaining meds for the FOWLR tank. Also ordered more cause I felt treatment #1 was wasted and ineffective.
I turned on the skimmer, added carbon & performed a 45% water change over the next two days. I restart the NSF on the FOWLR and continue.
Day 15 on the reef tank, (I stopped dosing on day 12 I think) and the scratching & flashing is back.
So all this time, I'm talking back and forth with Tyler from NSF via email and out of one of my replies, I mentioned that through out this ick ordeal, I left my Phosban reactors running on both tanks because Ruby Reef's instructions stated that phosphate removal or binding media can be left running. Didn't think to mention this to NSF in the beginning and forgot about it. When Tyler found out, he told me to stop running the Phosban and that Phosban will take some of the active ingredients out of the meds.
It's been a full treatment week (3rd treatment) for both tanks with no skimming, carbon, UV or Phosban.
Reef tank visible symptoms are gone and the FOWLR tank has cleared up of visible symptoms also. I did have to fresh water dip a Naso in the beginning of week 3 because he looked so covered with the parasite and his secondary infection (body patches & sores) looked so bad, I thought he was a goner. He still has some marks from the body sores but it looks like it's almost healed.
I'm into week 4 as a precaution once again, but I have turned on the skimmers for both tank at the start of the 4th treatment due to concern that the reef tank has not had a water change since 10/16/05 and the algae film on the glass is almost every other day. I'll finish up the 4th treatment and stop to see if the symptoms return.

So to me, I do see some positive results in such that I was able to treat my reef tank with something other than Kick-Ick, the FOWLR was well on it's way to a total crash and most likely would've been broken down to start up from scratch.

Whether or not this has "eradicated" the parasite, I'll know in about two weeks.

I don't know if this is the type of feedback that people were looking for but this is what I've experienced so far.