Who needs wholesalers/LFS/etailers, let's do a group buy

[Anonymous]

When you order site unseen, you have no idea if you are getting a sick fish or not.

This is exactly why I support my LFS at every opportunity. I have never bought livestock online and I never will. - I will even ask my LFS if they can get me drygoods and will happily pay a small margin above what I would if I had ordered it myself (even after tax / shipping.)



Mindsets like Bebos piss me off immensely. - Not just for the far-reaching implications that Mark mentioned, but also for the more local ones too. - Supporting an LFS means you're also supporting your local economy too. (And yes, that even goes for when you buy direct from your local wholesaler too. - You're still cutting local people out of the economic flow.)

Just because your CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

:x

 

[clarionreef]

I think we owe Bebo a thankyou for defining how so much of the trade really feels.
This is why hopes for a demand side revolution in moral and sustainable choices cannot...will not...have not ... born fruit.
The % of hobbyists who may buy on higher considerations is small in comparison to Bebos silent majority and not enough to carry a consumer end sea change.
This is why the supply side shows the most promise in reforming the trade and not the consumer side.

As Jackson Browne wrote;

"I'm gonna be a happy idiot
and struggle for the legal tender'
where the ads take aim...
and lay their claim,
to the heart and the soul
of the spender.
...and believe in what ever may lie...
in those things that money can buy
though true love
could have been a contender...
Thankyou again Bobo.


Steve

 

[hawaiianreefer]

Allow me to start explaining the chain of custody that several of you have mentioned. First a diver goes and risks his/her life and health to aquire your animal. Next a local wholesaler will buy that fish from you, either that day or a few days later. The wholesaler then waits awhile till he is ready to ship. Wholesaler holding systems are large, but very crowded. Said fish is shipped to the LA wholesaler which holds the fish a little more. Some time later your LFS will order this fish, then hold it some more. Then Joe Blow comes buy, takes the fish home FINALLY!!!

Bebo might have created a false perspective by his example of 3 dying out of 4. I couldnt tell anyone that I have never had DOA's but as mentioned, think about the amount of DOAs you get through the above chain of custody. I ship direct to hobbiest becasue they are so stoked to get good prices and better quality. Quality is the issue here, not price. Well lets talk a little more about price. I can catch a yellow tang and sell it for $3, not too bad. I sell that same yellow for $8 if I sell it myself. LEts talk about quality. Would I rest better knowing that I shipped the animal 4-5 days after capture, destined for its final home. Of course! I see success like this time and time again with rare/sensitive species (crosshatch/bandit angels/ moorish idols/psychadelic wrasses/etc). I have many clients that love these so called sensitve fish becasue they can get them eating a day after arrival. Of course they arrive in better condition, we knocked 3 weeks and several holding systems off ther arrival.

As far as supporting local business, you got us there. Support your LFS if they support you. I cannot help but see the irony in our business. EVERYTHING we get in Hawaii is sooooooooooooooo expensive becasue f the chain of custody. Thats a free market though. I think we will see more and more of the breakdown of the chain of custody becasue of the internet. It has started with the etailers and is slowly shifting in developed places (Hawaii, Australia) to actual fish collectors who are tired of letting local businessmen take advantage of our risks and skills. If you think catching fish is easy, think again! If you think decompression sickness (DCS) is not serious think again! Many (not all) local wholesalers dont give a rip about the fish, and have seldom seen where they come from!!! Now how much does your very expereicned wholesaler know about the fish if they have never seen where they come from??? Social interactions are grossly overlooked in tank ecology because they cannot be reproduced when people mismatch specimens. I could go on for days.

What do yall think???

 

[Kalkbreath]

Keep in mind that this industry can do without the wholesalers to a point.
But once the retailers are gone the market will dry up.
Once that happens the marine dry goods companies will fold and there will only be beta bowls to house your Naesco tangs (with streamers)
Next down turn in the U.S. economy and fifty percent of the mom and pop retailers are out.
With them will go fifty percent of the next year's marine industry hobbyists.

 

[dizzy]

Que sera sera. It's the evolution of the better business model. :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

really?
So whos gonna buy entire cans [ containers] of Hawaiian yellow tangs?
The hobbyist? 4 here...three there.
More than half of all the Hawaiian output are cheap yellow tangs which they have already ruined in value by marketing direct to stores.

The direct approach will have one dividend...less of the commonest and most environmentally inexpensive fish ..ie. yellows would be caught as hobbyists cannot buy many direct compared to the volumes that Hawaiian collectors produce for wholesalers.
In fact, they need wholesalers to base the trade in yellows on so they can then ship some odd balls and less common species direct making those fish cheaper.
Without yellows, Hawaii would be an interesting situation as the economy of scale that they provide anchors nearly everyones business over there.
This is why the serious collectors gravitate to selling all they catch every day to wholesalers. The picky, sensitive, selective, fastidious, cherry pickin public is to on again off again...and to inconsistant to base a professional business on.
Real collectors make so much less selling direct...if direct is all they do.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Hawaiianreefer

:welcome:







I just realized that we may be crossing two topics in this thread - group buys vs. buying direct from the collector.
I don't believe that I have a problem with buying direct from the collector. There is something nice about the idea of specific fish being collected for a tank instead of a bunch of fish collected in the hopes that they make it through the 'normal' chain of custody. If we could buy directly from the collectors in the South Pacific, even more money could go directly to the divers. My comment about site unseen was in response to the idea of ordering disease free fish, not a general comment about buying directly from collectors. Most of my comments in this thread were more about group buys, as I tend not to like them due to organizational issues.

 

[Anonymous]

really?
So whos gonna buy entire cans [ containers] of Hawaiian yellow tangs?
The hobbyist? 4 here...three there.
More than half of all the Hawaiian output are cheap yellow tangs which they have already ruined in value by marketing direct to stores.

The direct approach will have one dividend...less of the commonest and most environmentally inexpensive fish ..ie. yellows would be caught as hobbyists cannot buy many direct compared to the volumes that Hawaiian collectors produce for wholesalers.
In fact, they need wholesalers to base the trade in yellows on so they can then ship some odd balls and less common species direct making those fish cheaper.
Without yellows, Hawaii would be an interesting situation as the economy of scale that they provide anchors nearly everyones business over there.
This is why the serious collectors gravitate to selling all they catch every day to wholesalers. The picky, sensitive, selective, fastidious, cherry pickin public is to on again off again...and to inconsistant to base a professional business on.
Real collectors make so much less selling direct...if direct is all they do.
Steve

Hey Steve,

What do you think of twilightaquatics? They have a stellar reputation for catching and shipping first class animals and seem to be doing just fine with money. Perhaps they also sell the wholesalers?

 

[dizzy]

Thales the thing is that it may take group buys to make it economically feasible to buy direct from the collectors. I don't see how you can realistically seperate the two. Clubs are an excellent way to do this.

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
Twilight is a niche...not a model for anyone else. Rare and deepwater fishes are not a mass market thing and if they were prices would come down and diver deaths would go up.
If they have found a way to do business without the yellow tang foundation; power to em.
Steve

 

[hawaiianreefer]

You are totally right about the yellow tang theory, but I am not a big fan. I dont catch 500 yellows, nor would I want to. Its the demand for yellows that keeps divers after them. I have constant moral arguments regarding taking fish from the wild, but I continue becasue I dont rape the reefs. There is a huge difference between pulling 500yellows from a single reef and pulling 5. They serve as the reef cleaner, just as they do in your tanks. Now out of those 500 yellows collected, how many die? Out of my 5 collected, if I sell direct to a consumer how many you think would live? Again I couldnt say that I have never had DOAs, becasue it is an unfortunate fact of the business. Wholesalers are not mosnters and I dont mean to offend any. Just like collectors there are good ones and bad ones, and I have business relations with several good ones. I have boycotted local crappy wholesalers because they dont care about your fish! I stay loyal doing business with several specific wholesalers because they take great care of the specimen, although dont always pay the best.

Please see that my modivation is not to make more money, but to learn and serve the industry more responsibly. True- Group buys are a pain in the neck, they are difficult to organize, and from a business standpoint they are inconsistant. In the long run group buys are not a good money maker, but I would say what I have learned about this market from doing group buys will make me a more responsible collector. IS that not what the industry wants, because thats what people are demanding of me.

As far as niche markets for rare fish, they are indeed the exception not the rule. Group buys for fish that cost over $500 each are highly unlikley. When it comes to deep diving and getting the semi rares though, thats when you create the atomsphere for group buys. Crosshatch triggers/bandit angels are notoriously expensive (retail), but you get a fish like that direct from a diver that cares you save a ton of money and get a fish that is eating in a non crowded holding system.

I am not advertising but this is really what I believe motivates these group buys. More input from your guys perspective would be most appreciated as we can all learn to better our business, hobby, and industry as a whole. The goal is not sustaining the chain of custody, but sustaining responsible collection and keeping of these specimens. Its not my desire to cut anybody out but if this industry continues to DEMAND sustainablity you wll see SUPPLY follow to serve the needs. My economics professor (stuck in Lebanon) would appreciate my use of SUPPLY and DEMAND here.

ps. I am new to this site and I have not looked around yet. If anybody has some cool threads let me know.

 

[dizzy]

hawaiianreefer,
You seem like a reasonable person. What do you know about the use of bleach in HI. Is it just used for food fish? Is it ever used to collect ornamentals by the bad guys?
Thanks,
Mitch

 

[Kalkbreath]

The relationship of Supply and Demand is illustrated quite well with Yellow tangs.
Without the hundreds of thousands of yellow tangs catching the publics eye as they shop for doggy toys at the big box, the number of people getting interested in keeping salt water fish would be far fewer then its is today. Do we really think brown Scopas tangs would do as fine a job attracting the publics attention? These yellow swimming advertisements are working as marine tank recruiters. Cheap ,easy to care for and an eye catcher.this single fish species has done quite a bit for the hobby.
If we were to lessen the number of yellow tangs in the retail market place , we would lessen the number of hobbyists.
Like wise if we were to decrease the number of Big box stores carrying yellow tangs the number of hobbyists would fall.
If we as a hobby ever want to reach the point where can decrease end user prices and collectively buy in enough volume to support aqua culture, we must increase the number of hobbyists.
Bypassing the system which generates hobbyists will end up with an even weaker industry for everyone involved.
Disgruntled divers, ex industry workers and home based farmers are not going to take the hobby to a sustainable level.

 

[Anonymous]

"All the clownfish and yellow tangs in the world won't save you now!!!"

Hell, yellow tangs were even named in a prime time adult comedy.

Peace,

Chip

 

[hawaiianreefer]

hawaiianreefer,
You seem like a reasonable person. What do you know about the use of bleach in HI. Is it just used for food fish? Is it ever used to collect ornamentals by the bad guys?
Thanks,
Mitch

I have not seen any recent cases of this for food or ornamental fish. Hawaii is regulated quite well.

 

[Raskal311]

i go to the wholesellere her in LA whenever i can get someone to take me... i only with the public could go...

Bebo if you want to go to the wholesalers and buy you need to join the local marine aquarium society. Why do I even bother posting if no one reads this stuff? If you want to go and buy as just a hobbyist you have got to be a highroller.

We have several large wholesellers... our clubs only get us into a few of them and even then its only a couple times a year....

but true... if you pay retail for everything in this hobby you will go broke SOO fast...lol

who pays retail anymore

 

[clarionreef]

"who pays retail anymore?"

Did ya hear the one about the flea and the tick?
The flea asks him "who walks anymore?"
Without dogs ...I mean retailers, there is no trade.
There is no trade as the economy of scale would disappear and with it the foundation of stability that allows some to play without pay.
Foreign imports come in by 40 boxes, 60 boxes and up. Thats how they stay alive. 75% of the stuff in those boxes are the stuff that fuels our economy in tropicals...not the fringe stuff and cherry stuff that fuels a few gatecrashers.
Yes flea markets and #ag swaps are fun...but they are not what makes things work.
Steve

 

[Raskal311]

"who pays retail anymore?"

Did ya hear the one about the flea and the tick?
The flea asks him "who walks anymore?"
Without dogs ...I mean retailers, there is no trade.
There is no trade as the economy of scale would disappear and with it the foundation of stability that allows some to play without pay.
Foreign imports come in by 40 boxes, 60 boxes and up. Thats how they stay alive. 75% of the stuff in those boxes are the stuff that fuels our economy in tropicals...not the fringe stuff and cherry stuff that fuels a few gatecrashers.
Yes flea markets and #ag swaps are fun...but they are not what makes things work.
Steve

This is Exactly why you industry boys shouldn't be getting all up tight about a few divers selling to the hobbyist and a few hobbyist buying from wholesalers. I’ve been told by numerous LFS owners that %90 if not more of their sales are from non hobbyist who just want a “nemo tank” for their kids. People who would never know to look for a group buy or E business. Much of the hobbyist side of the industry evolved because of the internet and its only natural for it to evolve to a more direct level. I would image the everyday mom and pop stores that have been selling to everyday people as it has for years would stay as is.

 

[dizzy]

This is Exactly why you industry boys should be getting all up tight about a few divers selling to the hobbyist and a few hobbyist buying from wholesalers.

But Raskal the cat is out of the bag now. It won't be just a few hobbyists, once the rest learn they are not getting the same deal. When I first heard the wholesalers were doing this I knew it would be a Pandora's box.

 

[Anonymous]

Is it too late to get in on the group buy? :wink: