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Rascal

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That there my friends sums it up completely...It's all about the money.Who cares about quality or losses as long as I can brag that I got a coral beauty at less than retail.

Bebo77 - I don't know how to say this without crossing the line regarding posting policies, but your philosophy sucks. You truly need to get a clue.

Everyone else - The reality is that Bebo77 does not stand alone, and his type is what perpetuates this demand for poor quality and reef unconsciousness. His type is what, for example, DrsF&S live for. To Hell with quality.
 

Bebo77

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Gman0526":a0fzvmm7 said:
So what's the difference on a 300% markup on a fish and paying for 4 and getting 1?

i was saying.. if you buy 1 fish and it dies you could it again and again and again and still have a few bucks in your pocket...

god forbid you have that kind of luck
 

Bebo77

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Rascal":1ogvzqbu said:
That there my friends sums it up completely...It's all about the money.Who cares about quality or losses as long as I can brag that I got a coral beauty at less than retail.

Bebo77 - I don't know how to say this without crossing the line regarding posting policies, but your philosophy sucks. You truly need to get a clue.

Everyone else - The reality is that Bebo77 does not stand alone, and his type is what perpetuates this demand for poor quality and reef unconsciousness. His type is what, for example, DrsF&S live for. To Hell with quality.

you must be kidding right? do youknw what it like at the wholsellers ? do you what kind of losses they take... and the lfs as well. It has nothing to do with poor quailty .. i am not going to buy a sick fish. its about money.. hey if you want to blow $100 for a $20 (wholesale price)fish go ahead but i have better things to do with my money....
 
A

Anonymous

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Bebo77":yu8jq2mv said:
but true... if you pay retail for everything in this hobby you will go broke SOO fast...lol

I know lots of people who pay retail and are doing just fine. They are realistic and stay within their means.
I don't understand the mentality of people thinking they are entitled to something they can't afford.
 

Bebo77

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Thales":2c0awfnv said:
Bebo77":2c0awfnv said:
Gman0526":2c0awfnv said:
Bebo77":2c0awfnv said:
Why do you think the public should go to wholesalers?
If they did sell to the public, the prices would rise to match those of LFS because there are costs that must be dealt with when dealing with public sales.

i was just saying it would be nice if the public could get those prices... its not like most LFS will take back a fish that dies 2 weeks after you buy it..
 
A

Anonymous

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Everyone -

Lets make sure this stays civil. Have differing opinions, disagree vehemently, but do not be insulting.

Bebo77":2t5asfwm said:
you must be kidding right? do youknw what it like at the wholsellers ? do you what kind of losses they take... and the lfs as well. It has nothing to do with poor quailty .. i am not going to buy a sick fish.

When you order site unseen, you have no idea if you are getting a sick fish or not.

its about money.. hey if you want to blow $100 for a $20 (wholesale price)fish go ahead but i have better things to do with my money....

Its only about money if you make it about money. Again, I don't understand the idea that things should cost what people want to pay instead of costing what they cost. I don't have a hot rod because I don't have the money to put into it, even though I would like a hot rod. I don't think I should have a hot rod even though I cant afford it.
 

Bebo77

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Thales":2yi0805j said:
Bebo77":2yi0805j said:
but true... if you pay retail for everything in this hobby you will go broke SOO fast...lol

I know lots of people who pay retail and are doing just fine. They are realistic and stay within their means.
I don't understand the mentality of people thinking they are entitled to something they can't afford.

but isnt it nice to have a dollar? i would love to get a new Alienware computer but i had to settle for a dell... but if i could get an Alienware for the price of a Dell i would be all over it...

i dont want to ruffle feathers.. but my mentality is not alone... thats why group buys that offer good deals get jumped on by fellow reefers...
 
A

Anonymous

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Bebo77":2t9xpxfx said:
Thales":2t9xpxfx said:
Bebo77":2t9xpxfx said:
Gman0526":2t9xpxfx said:
Bebo77":2t9xpxfx said:
Why do you think the public should go to wholesalers?
If they did sell to the public, the prices would rise to match those of LFS because there are costs that must be dealt with when dealing with public sales.

i was just saying it would be nice if the public could get those prices... its not like most LFS will take back a fish that dies 2 weeks after you buy it..

If wholesalers were to sell to the public all the time they wouldn't be selling at those prices because of the overhead to goes along with selling to the public.
I don't understand what you mean about taking a fish that dies two weeks after purchase. Neither wholesalers nor lfs do that.
 
A

Anonymous

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Bebo77":2dg4rrq8 said:
Thales":2dg4rrq8 said:
Bebo77":2dg4rrq8 said:
but true... if you pay retail for everything in this hobby you will go broke SOO fast...lol

I know lots of people who pay retail and are doing just fine. They are realistic and stay within their means.
I don't understand the mentality of people thinking they are entitled to something they can't afford.

but isnt it nice to have a dollar? i would love to get a new Alienware computer but i had to settle for a dell... but if i could get an Alienware for the price of a Dell i would be all over it...

Have you joined a computer club and tried to do a group buy directly from the manufacturer? Why not?

i dont want to ruffle feathers.. but my mentality is not alone... thats why group buys that offer good deals get jumped on my fellow reefers...

Not all group buys get jumped on. Many of them are organized horribly and people end up losing money waiting for the buy to come to fruition. Its hard to tell what group buy actually offers a good deal. Some group buys are great. I am not at all a fan of livestock group buys for the reasons mentioned in this thread.

The focus on saving a buck in this hobby is strange to me. People will spend 100 bucks on a quarter inch of coral but try to save 2 dollars on a bag of salt. Weird.
 

Rascal

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Bebo77 - My apologies for my tone. You just struck a nerve. Understand that there is a chain of custody that these fish endure, from the ocean to the end consumer. There are checks and balances in place, stemming primarily from competition, that maintains an elevated level of quality. Yes, I have been to a few wholesalers in my day...Miami, LA, NY. Been doing this a while. Everyone is held accountable. That my friend is the beauty of economics in a free society. Those suppliers that don't make the grade are weeded out.

As was just stated, you are getting your fish sight inseen. Your only recourse to receiving a bad shipment is to not order from that supplier again. You don't hold anyone accountable because your guy already has his money.
 

mark@mac

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Fishers in Hawaii live much better than fishers in Phils, Indo, etc.... Good for them. I know several and I consider them responsible collectors...

I feel Philipino and Indo collectors would likely never be able to do something like this, "direct from the diver". I guess it would be good if they made more money. Maybe the hawaii diver makes a bit more doing this than selling to the exporters.

The hobbyist wanting organisms as cheap as possible, with no regard for quality and the "acceptable high losses" are factors in what is perpetuating destructive, unsustainable collection practices. Little incentive or choice to be more responsible simpy perpetuates thier need to overfish and thier substandard quality of life.

The direct from the diver buy is definitely not for newbies.

just my 2 cents.
peace,

Mark
 

Bebo77

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Rascal":3m4xph2h said:
Bebo77 - My apologies for my tone. You just struck a nerve. Understand that there is a chain of custody that these fish endure, from the ocean to the end consumer. There are checks and balances in place, stemming primarily from competition, that maintains an elevated level of quality. Yes, I have been to a few wholesalers in my day...Miami, LA, NY. Been doing this a while. Everyone is held accountable. That my friend is the beauty of economics in a free society. Those suppliers that don't make the grade are weeded out.

As was just stated, you are getting your fish sight inseen. Your only recourse to receiving a bad shipment is to not order from that supplier again. You don't hold anyone accountable because your guy already has his money.

i did my research on the man before o bought i planned to buy from him... but how is buying from him any different than getting the fish from marinedepot live or liveaquaria? what about all the "sponsors" who sell live goods? should they not be trusted?

i agree with what you are saying and that it is not a goos idea to just buy frish from some guys who sells them for less money.. but i talked to Alex everyother day or more thatn 2 weeks before i did the buy... i trust him... and if he does me wrong ill... :twisted:
 

Kalkbreath

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I would be interested in how most of your club members got into the hobby?

Without Brick and mortars creating new hobbyists, less and less hobbyists are going to be introduced to reef keeping.

Ten years from now when most mom and pop fish stores are gone....and your the single person left in your fish club, How will you lure the public into the hobby?

Staying with the one who brought you to the dance , seems to have lost its value .
Thanking the local LFS for bringing this wonderfull hobby into my live, is something that most hobbyists wont appreciate or even comprehend until the B&M messangers are gone. ( or HI collectors for that matter)



:wink:
 

JennM

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dizzy":1bqogppv said:
JennM":1bqogppv said:
I think the local reef club has *maybe* 300, and most of those bought a membership for a discount card that affords them a discount from 'sponsor' stores - usually 10%.

Jenn

Jenn,
I think some might give a better discount than that. I went around to a few stores when I drove down to Orlano for the APPMA show last year. This was apparently before kalk had the largest selection of cultured clams and acros in the world. :roll: If you exit his store and go left, and then turn right a few blocks up there is a store on the right next to the Petsmart. The store was nice and the staff knowledgeable. I told him I was a retailer just passing though and did not try and trick him. Anyway the guy told me they gave club members upwards of 25% discount. I was shocked and he admitted it was too high, but seemed to indicate other stores did as well. Perhaps a lot has changed in 18 months or so.
Mitch

Mitch, that store recently restructured its discount structure with the club. There was a TON of backlash...

Here's the initial thread where the changes were announced: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showt ... h+discount

The outcry was ridiculous. I don't usually post on that forum anymore but I got so pissed off at the sense of entitlement that people who buy essentially a $20 discount card were making, I actually came out of lurkdom to spill off. The thread eventually got locked, but the store made changes, including its store hours. It ticks me off that a small percentage of local hobbyists think (and apparently succeeded) in telling a store how they can run and how they can price things.

Here's the follow up with 'changes': http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showt ... h+discount

In short, they're only offering the discount now during the week and Sat. from 10-12 - which in my experience are times that are typically slow. They're offering 30% on livestock and 20% on dry goods.

I don't know how their base prices stack up against other stores' every day prices, but when people ask me if I offer a reef club discount and I say no, I haven't had anybody put back their stuff and leave. I simply explain that I don't think it's fair to offer cheaper prices to somebody who bought a $20 membership to a club - all customers pay the same. If a customer demonstrates outstanding loyalty and spends a significant dollar amount regularly, for some I give 10 % as a courtesy. Very few people on that list, and I don't think any of them belong to the club (or any club).

For that store it was a calculated risk - on one hand the extra discount is a bigger attraction for card-carrying members to spend their dollars at their store, versus the other sponsor stores. However in the bigger picture, club members make up a small percentage of the overall customer base.

However if I was a customer and I saw the guy in line in front of me paying 20-30% less for the same stuff, I'd be pissed. Just speculation on my part but by limiting the discounting hours to slow times, it's less likely that you're going to have a full-price customer witness a fat discount if it's during a low-traffic time at the store.

I recently saw one of their sale flyers for a truckload sale and some of their posted sale prices were comparable to my everyday prices... so it's all relative.

Jenn
 

JennM

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GreshamH":23sbk6mt said:
JennM":23sbk6mt said:
What if USFWS hangs up the shipment?

Ooops :D Since when is the USF&WS involved in domestic flights from HI?

Actually Gresh, my thoughts were more about the Indo shipment that somebody was pimping here in the 'For Sale' forum a few weeks ago. The one that was referenced here with the <ehem> thread a bit down the board.

As I'm sure you know, even on domestic shipments there's plenty that can go wrong, particularly if the shipment isn't on a direct flight.

I've been fortunate to have had few problems over the years but twice my live rock got misdirected for 2 days - fortunately it was *only* rock so no ill effects. I had a shipment of corals sit in Arizona in 110 degree heat for 6 hours on a layover - Holy melted Euphyllias, Batman! Where I used to work several years ago, a whole fish shipment got 'lost' for 3 days - that was devastating.

My point is that it's not as simple as some people would lead the naive hobbyist to believe. Once the freight and whatnot is factored in, it's not as cheap as it seems.

Jenn
 

JennM

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Bebo77":1924900o said:
Hello i am Gabriel i am the one organizing the buy on Reef central... I think the ability for a fish to go from the catcher to the reefkeers tank in less than 24 hours is great.. Are there risks... yes but at the price saving you can buy 4 fish have 3 die and still come out with money on your pocket...

Now thats a good deal.

Do you think the people who are buying those fish will agree?

I did a "group buy" thing once, many years ago with an etailer. I ordered a yellow coris wrasse, 2 coral cats and a blue linckia. My cost for everything with my share of shipping was $41. Great deal!! NOT. Linckia had pH shock and died shortly after a painstaking acclimation. One coral cat was definitely dead in the bag long before it left Los Angeles.. the smell when I opened the BOX told that story (peeewwwww) it was already decomposing. The other coral cat died shortly after acclimation it was in a bad way when I received it. The Yellow Coris had some spots, but careful TLC it bounced back and did just fine. Oh sure I got a credit from the etailer that I could use on a future shipment (just pay shipping!) but at the end of the day I ended up with a $41 fish I could have bought for $22 locally. I opted to cut my losses and not spend the credit as it would have cost me more to replace those creatures than to just pick them up locally and I'd have the benefit of seeing them first.

Frankly I find your attitude about this thing reviling. Did your sales pitch to hobbyists include the statement that 3 out of 4 fish can arrive dead and it's still a good deal? Who's paying the freight on those dead fish?

From the catcher to the reefkeeper in 24 hours... OK what about disease protocol? What about quarantine? You making that disclaimer that fish should be quarantined before adding to a hobbyist's display?

I could go on but I think I've made my point. Crap like this puts a further black eye on the trade.

Jenn
 

JennM

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Bebo77":e05c63up said:
but true... if you pay retail for everything in this hobby you will go broke SOO fast...lol

So it's an expensive hobby. Lots of hobbies are expensive. If you can't afford it, pick another hobby, or take another job :)

Jenn
 

JennM

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Bebo77":1b60sq5i said:
you must be kidding right? do youknw what it like at the wholsellers ? do you what kind of losses they take... and the lfs as well. It has nothing to do with poor quailty .. i am not going to buy a sick fish. its about money.. hey if you want to blow $100 for a $20 (wholesale price)fish go ahead but i have better things to do with my money....

Speaking of money, just what is your kickback for orchestrating this? I can't imagine with you seeming financial savvy, that there isn't something in it for you.. the collector can't orchestrate the buy because that would be deemed commercial posting on the forum you advertised it on... but something besides the 3 deaddies to 1 live, smells "fishy"...

Or is this just your philanthropic contribution to the hobby?

Jenn
 

JennM

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Bebo77":15njg56u said:
Thales":15njg56u said:
Bebo77":15njg56u said:
Gman0526":15njg56u said:
Bebo77":15njg56u said:
Why do you think the public should go to wholesalers?
If they did sell to the public, the prices would rise to match those of LFS because there are costs that must be dealt with when dealing with public sales.

i was just saying it would be nice if the public could get those prices... its not like most LFS will take back a fish that dies 2 weeks after you buy it..

Will you take back a fish that dies 2 weeks after sombody buys it?

Usually if a fish dies *weeks* after it's purchased, it's because of "user error"... poor water quality, poor husbandry/disease outbreak. None of that is the LFS fault after it leaves their care, custody and control.

What I don't think you understand is that the wholesale/retail prices of livestock are based on the costs of landing them, factoring in mortality and other variables, and yes, the business has to make money - that's how the people taking orders, packing livestock, cleaning tanks etc. get paid and that's how the cost of the facility, utilities, administrative costs, insurance and other expenses are paid.

Or do you think that all businesses in this industry should be operating at a loss?

Have you ever considered the price you pay for food, clothing, gasoline, housing or anything else is calculated? Here's some news -- business is business - everybody has to mark up their prices in order to keep the business going and the employees paid.

How about a group buy on wholesale Black Angus steaks or Levis Jeans?

:roll:

Jenn
 

JennM

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Bebo77":2fm5q9f9 said:
but isnt it nice to have a dollar? i would love to get a new Alienware computer but i had to settle for a dell... but if i could get an Alienware for the price of a Dell i would be all over it...

i dont want to ruffle feathers.. but my mentality is not alone... thats why group buys that offer good deals get jumped on by fellow reefers...

So do you suppose that Alienware and Dell don't mark up their stuff?

Jenn
 

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