open discussion on LFS!!!!

[Sean]

BC, Sean, et al,

I have had no exposure to Sean and AC - I believe when you say that he operates the business like a business and as a hobbiest - BUT, clearly he is in the business for a long time - hence the long run comment.

Sean,

I totally hear you about the changing costs from suppliers and external factors (weather, consumer driven pricing etc - Shauns comments on ACANS is an example) - but everyone (owners) are concerned about the immediate bottom line, no long term thinkers. In your example, I would buy when the price was lowest (and I know many suppliers sell them for way less than $60) and house them - releasing them from your inventory when you needed to. Again, this requires savings, and money to do so, BUT most people run thier business with the slimest of monies to operate and wind up sacrificing when they truly need somethin in stock - this is exampled when stores try to sell you something as the electric, exotic, rare thingamajig - and you get there or you get it in your group order and it's mediocre at best.

Anyway, I am sure it's harder than I am oversimplifying, but there has to be a better mousetrap somewhere.

House

Hey I'm all ears on a better way

I hear what your saying about buying when they're low but we are talking about animals not something you can store in your basement till you feel like selling them. also croceas for example are $60 (my selling price) once maybee twice a year I grab as many as I can but when they're gone they're gone. Unless I start breeding them myself. :banghead:

You guys here are the hobbiest my customers or potential customers your the boss. When you walk in my shop I hope I have what your looking for at the right price. When I don't I feel like I failed and in a way I have. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

#$#%$# I'm getting depresed

Sean

 

[House of Laughter]

Sean, don't get discouraged, that's why "shopping" is what it is. You just have to time it just right

Still holding my URI bulbs?

House

 

[Sean]

Yeah house still holding them for you

I'm shocked no one has any questions about the industry. I'm willing to answer questions you might have.

 

[ShaunW]

Alright, I wasn't going to go there, because I see this conversation as a lose-lose propostion. My questions are not directed at you, since I have never seen your store, nor know your prices, nor your live stock or system. So I hope that you don't get defensive. It is store owners like you that I hope will offer hope to us Manhattan reefers.

I have three reef tanks, over the years I must have spent many thousands of dollars on the hobby. So I would believe that I would be the customer that any reef store would want to have. However, every piece of equipment, reagent, and almost every coral has been by mail order.

My questions are:
1. Why can't local stores match the price of online stores, such as premiumaquatics (whom I use for all my dry goods), championlighting, and reefermadness.
2. Why do local stores not provide delivery service for large ticket items?
3. Why do local stores automatic assume that everyone is an ignoramus? and be-little the knowlegde of the customer.
4. Why don't more local stores advertise on this site or support this group of dedicated reefers?
5. Why don't local stores offer frags of corals at cheaper prices? why don't local stores offer coral package deals, i.e. 10 ricordea for $100, etc.
6. Why do local stores obtain, house and sell corals that are known to not prosper in captivity?

these are the beginning of my questions, I am just getting started, .

 

[DEEPWATER]

Alright, I wasn't going to go there, because I see this conversation as a lose-lose propostion. My questions are not directed at you, since I have never seen your store, nor know your prices, nor your live stock or system. So I hope that you don't get defensive. It is store owners like you that I hope will offer hope to us Manhattan reefers.

I have three reef tanks, over the years I must have spent many thousands of dollars on the hobby. So I would believe that I would be the customer that any reef store would want to have. However, every piece of equiptment, reagent, and almost every coral has been by mail order.

My question are:
1. Why can't local stores match the price of online stores, such as premiumaquatics (whom I use for all my dry goods), championlighting, and reefermadness.
2. Why do local stores not provide delivery service for large ticket items?
3. Why do local stores automatic assume that everyone is an ignoramus? and be-little the knowlegde of the customer.
4. Why don't more local stores advertise on this site or support this group of dedicated reefers?
5. Why don't local stores offer frags of corals at cheaper prices? why don't local stores offer coral package deals, i.e. 10 ricordea for $100, etc.
6. Why do local stores obtain, house and sell corals that are know to not prosper in captivity?

these are the beginning of my questions, I am just getting started, .

cuz they dont want too,,I really dont care what many store owner have to say ,,as an ex.partner ,knowing the prices(wholesale) of corals ,inverts and fish ,,they just dont want to ,everyone has an over head ,(filter,rock tank .set up .elec)try this ,better making a fast nickle then a slow dime.if owner would drop prices maybe they will have more business(bluk) I know the stores are not making as much since online ordering has started ,most use the same exuse cant compete with internet ,cant or wont/?also LFS dont shop around if they are happy with one wholesaler they stick with them .not looking for produce that are cheaper prices ,diff wholesalers,etc.
like Royal supply ,90% of the ppl in tristate use this place for dry good,i found better places then them to buy at wholesale prices.
but most want to make money ,money, money ,,,i dont want to say the prices of some stuff ,but i know they are ripping us off ,on alot of stuff.
i did my resreach ,and came up with lots of good wholesalers to buy from all over the world ,cost of shipping to an airport is about 200 bux for us ,considering that it cost 40 for a regular shipping for 1 coral ,thats nothing for 100 pc of coral,do the math..not to mention the wholesalers that are inthe tri-state area no shipping ,and youget to see what you are buying ,.
this hobby is a good way to make money if you have the right customers(not ppl like us on MR who know what is a good price ,an can trade frags .or get them cheap from eachother.

one good thing is that on this site ,its not about money ,which makes this hobby even the more better ,when i started 2 yrs ago i had no clue on what is what and got fed everything poss to buy stuff from LFS .now i have more knowlegde than mosts store ,(not saying im perfect)but know what im looking for and doing

P.S. All LFS will say what they have to DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE

 

[marrone]

Mmmmm last time I look most people go into business to make money :scratchch Nothing wrong with that even if some are making alot more then what other people think they should be.

Yes some place charge alot more and make alot more than other places, and yes they can find things cheapier but using direct shipper on live stock but you need to factor in not only price but live stock lose and all the other cost associated with the item.

And yes alot of place can do much better on their prices, to compete with the on-line places just like Fishtown does, but the reality is that as long as people keep paying their prices they're just going to keep charging what they charge, just look at the price of gas at the pump, which until people start cutting back their is no reason to lower the price.

 

[DEEPWATER]

well gas is a complete diff topic .thk the goverment for that ,tickets and tax ,not to mention alots of other thing ,but ,yes stores need to make money , i agree ,,so do plumbers and docs,,,EVEN MANHATTAN REEF NEED MONEY.(they get it by donation)ever go othe Emergency room ,that alone is 400 bux to take your temp ,blood pressure and so on then you need to pay the doc ,medical office ,bla bla bla , ,does it mean they have the right to rip off consumers ,NO ,,but this thread is to helps us find better cheaper store ,know the ins and outs about store, when more ppl get to know how to shop ,then store will notice what they did worng ,bu

do you know that a zoo colony cost 20 bux and somtime 10 ,,selling price 70 ...
shripms are 9 or 8 bux ,if youbuy more its cheaper .they are 25 or more in the stores ,thats over 150% mark up ,as aplumber i dont even mark up that much on item ,,,nor do clothing store ..why should LFS ..cuz of supply and demand ,and ppl who dont know the hobby ,where would the LFS be if they didnt take advantage of those customers ,

 

[DEEPWATER]

This thread is so ppl that dont know how to shop for corals and stuff ,learn to watch out from those LFS that take advantage ,im not saying to them not to make money ,,with all do respect ,if some wants to pay 100 for something that youcan get for 40 ,go ahead ,but at the end he/she will feel uppset ,pissed of f, may even quit the hobby cuz of LFS doing that , ,,i seen it happen ,
i almost left when i 1st started this hobby cuz of LFS,and bad internet sales ,,but took them to court got back my money and going storng now ,dont want to see other get the shaft ,

 

[Sean]

sorry guys I'll answer questions tom.

 

[alrha]

One of the most fundamental laws of economics is that of supply and demand.

this is an ever changing and dynamic equilibrium.

Take a look at the stock market how much prices fluctuate, the same is true with anything else. As the demands (of the hobby) rise and fall (such as the boost from "Finding Nemo" on clown fish) and as supplies rise and fall (besed on availability and world climates) the market prices will change. The fact that a LFS is in business at any given time shows that he is meeting the point at which the supply meets the demand. If he did not have customers to buy his products at those prices, he would lose money on unsold products and on the fixed overhead costs. If some things are not selling at a price, there will likely be a sale (price-cut) to move the inventory. If he is selling out at a price, he then has every right, or even an obligation, to raise the price to meet the demand. why should he raise his price? because if i really want a corcea clam, but they are selling out at 70, that is not fair to me if i would be willing to pay 80 for it. He is losing 10 and i am losing the clam. The market price should pretty much be like selling at the average price of the highest bidders given a certain quantity. It is difficult, especially with livestock, to constantly be on the ball with finding the equilibrium price point. While looking at many of these store owners, I do not get the feeling that they have an MBA, but the common sense of adding up their expenses and their revenues should drive them towards maximizing their profits.

As far as online retailers, this is an issue with many industries and there was once a mainstram opinion that most "bricks and mortar" retailers would eventually go out of business as they have higher fixed expenses (rent, etc) that online retailers dont have. Well, seems like all these stores are still in business even though they have difficulty matching online prices. This may be due to a number of factors among them: immediate receipt of product (dont have to wait for shipping), ease of return (generally either than shipping back), relationship (online is usually impersonal), and the hand-on aspect (can see, touch, hold your product BEFORE you buy it). This value added warrants a price premium over online businesses.

ok, thats long enough for now.

 

[spykes]

i mean why cant stores order from the same place premium aquatics order from? do you have to get them from royal pets? i dont think you have to have to. but it would be great if a store was like premium aquatics order in bulk and offer low prices and ship to everyone else like a internet site like premium aquatics.

 

[alrha]

spykes, I agree, and an LFS looking to grow their business (i.e. more work) would be wise to add an online store to their business. The advantage is that they already have the staff etc. to handle the business. the added expense would be the space needed for the added storage tanks etc and packaging materials. This would add to spacial costs (i.e. rent) but should be offset by online sales/profits. It would also be a convenient way for local reefers to see what livestock are in stock and even get e-mail notification when a desired species arrives in stock.
But again, this is a whole other business that a store owner would be willing to invest in and take on. Perhaps someone looking to go into the business may want to partner up with a LFS and run an online division of it.

of course buying in bulk for online ordering would yeild better margins than buying one or two specimens of each species. but the storage tanks would have to be better able to support the livestock longer term than the typical cramped quarters of the temporary holding/display tanks of most LFS.

 

[ShaunW]

i mean why cant stores order from the same place premium aquatics order from? do you have to get them from royal pets? i dont think you have to have to. but it would be great if a store was like premium aquatics order in bulk and offer low prices and ship to everyone else like a internet site like premium aquatics.

I totally agree. What are they doing? that everybody else isn't? They are still located in the USA, and even with shipping they are cheaper than local stores.

For exampe, I recently bought salt (Bioassay salt) to make 300 gallons. The salt costs $12.99 to make 50 gallons. I got 6-50gallon bags. Shipping cost for all- $50. Adding it up it cost less to have this shipped to me than buying it locally. WHY?????

 

[alrha]

I totally agree. What are they doing? that everybody else isn't? They are still located in the USA, and even with shipping they are cheaper than local stores.

For exampe, I recently bought salt (Bioassay salt) to make 300 gallons. The salt costs $12.99 to make 50 gallons. I got 6-50gallon bags. Shipping cost for all- $50. Adding it up it cost less to have this shipped to me than buying it locally. WHY?????

because it may have been stored in a wharehouse in a cheap location in the middle of nowhere, compared to saw New World which is located in midtown manhattan and paying a much higher rent/square foot. in addition, due to space limitations, they can probably only buy say 10 boxes of salt at a time due to space limitations, while the online wharehouse may have room to buy a whole truckload of it at a much more economical price.

 

[marrone]

I know a # of year ago ThatPetPlace ramped up their mail order part of the business and had to hire quite a bit of people as the regualr operations couldn't handle it. This resulted in bad service until they got it correct, turn off alot of people.

 

[marrone]

I totally agree. What are they doing? that everybody else isn't? They are still located in the USA, and even with shipping they are cheaper than local stores.

For exampe, I recently bought salt (Bioassay salt) to make 300 gallons. The salt costs $12.99 to make 50 gallons. I got 6-50gallon bags. Shipping cost for all- $50. Adding it up it cost less to have this shipped to me than buying it locally. WHY?????

FishTown does very good on the prices of salt which compare very closely to what online place sell it for with shipping. But they do buy in large quanity and have space to store it cheaply.

Also LFS want to make a certain profit on items. They could still make the same profit by sell less if they purchasing more and got a discount but alot of place just don't want to carry that much stock and have that much money tied into it.

Also some places just don't want to carry certain products unless they're going to make a certain amount of profit, they just rather not carry it at all in some case. Case inpoint I asked the owner of NW why he didn't carry cat or dog food as I know the local Petland by me makes alot of money selling it. He told me the profit margins were to small and with the risk of a bag breaking not worth it for him.

 

[DEEPWATER]

dont forget most online store do drop shipping ,they dont even have a place to store thing ,just email the oder to the supply house and off it gos..
as far as storing salt ,wouldnt it get hard after a while

 

[bad coffee]

Don't forget the walmart theory (one of them.)

if you're a MUCH bigger store, you can buy more (in bulk) and sell something lower than a little guy's wholesale price.

Take a look at music CD's.

A friend owned a used CD store. I worked there, (I took the cd's I wanted before they hit the shelf. That was my paycheck)

His price for a NEW CD from the distributer was $11-13 He would buy 10-20 New cd's a week. Wally world would sell the SAME EXACT cd for $9.99 and still make money. WHY? because when you're buying 10,000 of the same cd, you get them a LOT cheaper.

So a local store doesn't have the space to house 100 buckets of IO it takes to get the price break. I don't fault them for that. But I won't pay $75 a bucket from them either. Would I pay $50 from a small mom and pop store, rather than take the coupon into petland/petco/petsmart and buy the same salt for $30 You bet I would.

B

 

[spykes]

yeah allt hey have to do is forget royal, forget long island aquatics wholesale. just go direct to CA wholesalers, order a bunch of live stock, walt smith imports, most of the stuff from fishtown is waltsmith imports. people can order 320 dollars worth of SPS, and there might be at least 20 colonies in there, maybe more. serious if LFS wants the pricing of online stores, why not just do what online does? even if you break even once in a while you still do better in the long run then the fishstores near by. even if you cant sell it all, you can probably provide other fishstores the same price or better then royal pet supplies.

 

[Sean]

Alright, I wasn't going to go there, because I see this conversation as a lose-lose propostion. My questions are not directed at you, since I have never seen your store, nor know your prices, nor your live stock or system. So I hope that you don't get defensive. It is store owners like you that I hope will offer hope to us Manhattan reefers.

I have three reef tanks, over the years I must have spent many thousands of dollars on the hobby. So I would believe that I would be the customer that any reef store would want to have. However, every piece of equipment, reagent, and almost every coral has been by mail order.

My questions are:
1. Why can't local stores match the price of online stores, such as premiumaquatics (whom I use for all my dry goods), championlighting, and reefermadness.
2. Why do local stores not provide delivery service for large ticket items?
3. Why do local stores automatic assume that everyone is an ignoramus? and be-little the knowlegde of the customer.
4. Why don't more local stores advertise on this site or support this group of dedicated reefers?
5. Why don't local stores offer frags of corals at cheaper prices? why don't local stores offer coral package deals, i.e. 10 ricordea for $100, etc.
6. Why do local stores obtain, house and sell corals that are known to not prosper in captivity?

these are the beginning of my questions, I am just getting started, .

1-Local store don't have the buying power of online stores or they do dropshipments from larger sources so they don't have to stock anything.
A store such as mine has to have a much larger variety of stock for all customers unlike the online stores you mentioned can you buy airline tubing, medication, nets, fishtanks, glass canopies, lighting, protien skimmers and algae pad from them. So with this in mind If I'm spending $10,000 on dry goods I cant just call up JBJ and order a skids worth of chillers.

2 Some do. I do deliveries I just charge for the delivery.clients of mine get free delivery and so do the employees of the company.

3 If someone comes in and wants a "nemo" I'm gonna make sure they have a salt water tank. You have no idea how many people want to put salt water fish into fresh water tanks.
As far as be-littling the customer thats just a bad attitude of the individule shop.

4 I'm going to advertise here soon I've been talking to people about it then I moved. As far as other shops most don't come here most owners don't even reserch stuff like MR or even RC. Alot feed on second hand information from there workers.

5 again your talking about ind. stores. Some do some dont. In my shop I have some frags (they're not alway easy to find) and If possible I will frag colonies. As far as packages you can ask anyone who shopped at my place the more you buy the bigger and better the discount.

6 thats the individual shops. But they sell them because people buy them and they either don't know or don't care.
I try not to sell stuff that doesn't survive in captivity but sometimes wholesaler trick me (by changing the names and such).

hope this clears thing a little
Sean