open discussion on LFS!!!!

[DEEPWATER]

On-line retailers are running a business too. One just doesn't have the option of speaking to them one-on-one. I've ordered dry goods on-line, but can't imagine getting livestock that way.

Some places that do online selling for livestock have great stuff ,ive ordered (but only inverts) and ive been happy ,im sure ppl on here have ordered and got great stuff ,When i was in business at LFS my order got to me the same way,,over nite shipping even then you had to know who to order from.some places are just better in shipping ,water quailty ,and knowlegde.and livestock.

 

[House of Laughter]

Jose, I like your idea - mystery shoppers we could do a "Shame on you" and nail them to the walls trying to sell out fish that will eventually die off.

I disagree with all of you who allow the mentality of "they have to feed thier families too" . There is a smarter way to do business and is how Walmart and other retailers make a ton of money.

See, retail is about supply and demand, and smart pricing to market. If you marked your inventory up a certain percentage and maintained good and healthy inventory had smart and courteous staff you'd do business 10 fold what NW would. The difference is how much is it worth to you? Would you rathter sell and maintain 3-$79 fish or 79-$1 fish? It has to do with what you want to take home as an owner and how much you want to pass on savings to your customers. Not rocket science. Now I know there are many other factors that go into it, but it can be done smartly.

I once worked with a chef who made me cost out a tossed salad right down to how much and olive was. If you did business that way, you'd know precisely where your margin is, how much you could mark-up, how much you needed to profit, and where your ROI is.

Simply put, it's really just a numbers game, and they don't play it very well.

And for some LFS, they are like some of the animals in this hobby, opportunistic scavengers.

my .02

House

 

[marrone]

Jim

I think all these places know what their margins are and they price things to what they can get, which is the market, and they all have their different model form NW to FishTown. Lets face it the reason that prices are what they are in each store is because people are willing to pay the price because if they didn't the store would have to lower it prices or they would just go out of business.

Is there any reason that Abs. Fish should charge higer price that NW? not because of there costs, which NW should be higher even though they have a smaller store, but they can get the price they want, every time I've been there the place is crowded even with the high prices. Now do these store turn off some people because of the price or there staff? yes they do but that a decision they've made as they would rather have certain customers over others. I know every store and business wants to get every customer but that usally not who it works and your usally better off determining your market and going after it. You see it in sports all the time as they change the game to try and get that % of the market that doesn't watch and they turn off some of the people that do.

Michael

 

[DEEPWATER]

here is an exsample ,some1 calls me in a panic cuz they see a leak in the wall ,water is coming out dripping ,bla bla bla ,,the lady on the on the line is going nuts ,,does that give me the right as a plumber to rip her off ,NO!,,althou i can if i wanted to ,she needs a plumber ,i can get there ,so why not charge that 400 bux for that service call ,,ill tell you why ,just cuz she needs me as a plumber now ,i would like her and the rest of everone she know to give me business later ,i may not make the big bux at the time ,but my phone will always ringing .its a shame that LFS take agvange of us but we are getting smarter then them . I like the Idea of the SHAME ON YOU LFS..that my new thread...lets help out owr memebers by putting the Shame and THE GOOD for them ,

 

[House of Laughter]

Michael,

See this is where the mind throws you a curve ball - just because the market will pay it, doesn't mean you should be charging those prices. It's a lot more complicated that that. And as DW has stated, just casue the market is willing to pay, doens't mean you have to be an opportunistic carnivore . . . . . . what happens when the markey won't pay it? Then you close, yes, and that's a bad way to do business, to invest or any other financial endeavor.

The long haul is where the money is, so, take advantage of the market my leveling your prices so that most everyone will come to you. Yes, I undertsand that there is one customer segment who believe s that if you pay more, it's better quality, but that's because they are clueless and care to remain that way. Hope NW enjoys thier clientelle and goes to bed with a clear head - I think NOT!

Also, Michael, I am willing to bet the livestock in my tank that any one of the store owners would not be able to tell you how much it costs them (with accuracy) to put 20lbs of live sand into their tanks. They know JACK about margins.

Anyhow, this is some of the reasons why I consider opening a store all the time. Unfortunately, the market in manhattan is difficult to manage and working the smaller margins enables a larger risk than I am comfortable with.

Happy spending!

House

 

[marrone]

Jim

In a retail business all sellers are opportunistic carnivore, your going to get what you think the market will bear. Store will price their items what they think they can get and what the market will bear. If people don't want to pay it they will then have to lower their prices and the store will have to come up with a different plan. All store determine what their market is going to be and cater to it, and if that means changing alot of money for items that their decision which would based on what the market bear. There is no curve ball here, business aren't go to get every single consumer out and must determine if lowering or raising their prices is worth the additional or decrease in business that they'll get. They why we have high and low end cars and stores that carter to each and the same can go for almost each industry.

Also to think that NW doesn't go to bed with a clean head because of who their clientelle is just rediculous. They know that part of their clientelle doesn't have the knowedeg but that why some come to them and that what they cater to. There are alot of people out there who want that type of service and that what NW will cater to. I think as long as they have clients and make money they're very happy at NW and wouldn't have any problems. That doesn't mean everyone is going to buy from them.

You would be surprised what the owners of NW knows about business in general and his business in particle. I've had many talks with him, from costs of live stock, water, electric, rent, mortgage and equipment and he know more than you think. Yes alot of LFS are hobbist who took their hobby and turned it into a business and don't know much about cost or financing but not all of them.

Michael

 

[ShaunW]

The major problem with NW is that they have no Manhattan competition (the petlands don't count). For me I don't own a car, so to get to the outer borough stores is a hassle. It is this fact that allows NW to continue to do business and charge the prices that they do. I have purhased many fish and corals from them over the years, and almost everytime I know that I am going to be ripped off, price wise. However, this obsessive hobby can be very powerful sometimes and overrule my common sense and thriftiness, and I am not a newbie.

As for prices, this hobby is full of overpriced corals for sale and scam artists. Take the Acan craze and the stupid wait lists going out 10 years for SPS corals (1inch frags) that have a fancy name or some famous reefers name on it.

These days I really only do mail order from good companies. So far it has worked out to be a much better option for me than the local stores. Money wise I am not sure if I am saving or not, however, for my own personal satisfaction I am happy about my decision.

 

[Sean]

WOW what a discussion I could comment on this all day. I just don't know where to start

 

[bad coffee]

Yeah. Lots of bashing, and lots of good points.

Jim, good thing I don't have a big tank. I'd have to call your bet and throw Aquatic Creations at you! I bet Sean knows exactly what's going on. Every time I'm in his store, the people working there know their stuff. And they're all nice as well. He's a hobbyist with a store. Every time I've seen him post, it's good info, and he's always concerned about the animals. That's the way to do business in my eyes.

And the local vs. online ordering for livestock is a tough call. I really want to see the animals in person, and see that they're healthy. But I also dont' want to pay $50 for a $15 fish. Sure, I'd pay $20, or $25 if it is a great fish. But $50? no F'ing way! And I do understand LFS's have overhead, and have to eat. SO I don't mind paying a little extra to keep the good guys in business.

BC

 

[Sean]

As I assume everyone here know I own Aquatic Creation in Brooklyn

some things you may not know about me
24 years as a hobbiest
17 years in the buisness
over 2 years as an intern at the N.Y. Aquarium
7 years as owner of Aquatic Creations 4 years as a store 3 as a maint. only buisness

anyway I'm willing to answer any questions anyone posts so here's your chance to know the "secrets" of the industry as well as some from the public Aquariums

 

[Sean]

Yeah. Lots of bashing, and lots of good points.

Jim, good thing I don't have a big tank. I'd have to call your bet and throw Aquatic Creations at you! I bet Sean knows exactly what's going on. Every time I'm in his store, the people working there know their stuff. And they're all nice as well. He's a hobbyist with a store. Every time I've seen him post, it's good info, and he's always concerned about the animals. That's the way to do business in my eyes.

BC

Thanks B.C.

 

[Missy Johnson]

I agree with House. In the short run, LFS prices can be reflective of supply in demand (ie what the market will bear) - however it's not the short run but the long run where profits are made and important qualitative factors play a deciding role - intangibles such as reputation, breadth of client base, relationship portfolio - these are the things that don't have assignable value but often determine a venture's success or failure.

 

[Sean]

I don't think you guys realise that when you buy from places it's not consistant price because they're not getting consistant prices one week I can sell crocea for $60 then next week they're $125 you may think I'm ripping you off but that reflects what i paid for them. So I know croceas aren't gonna sell for $125 so I don't buy them then a customer comes in and says hey why don't you have cool stuff in your shop like crocea clams?????????????

 

[bad coffee]

I agree with House. In the short run, LFS prices can be reflective of supply in demand (ie what the market will bear) - however it's not the short run but the long run where profits are made and important qualitative factors play a deciding role - intangibles such as reputation, breadth of client base, relationship portfolio - these are the things that don't have assignable value but often determine a venture's success or failure.

Dude, That's a lot of big words. I had no idea you were so smart!

B

 

[DEEPWATER]

Dude, That's a lot of big words. I had no idea you were so smart!

B

you also become from this hobby is a marine biologist.an accountant.lol :knockedou

 

[Sean]

you also become from this hobby is a marine biologist.an accountant.lol :knockedou

dont forget electician plumber and carpenter

 

[marrone]

water boy and janitor for all those split

 

[House of Laughter]

BC, Sean, et al,

I have had no exposure to Sean and AC - I believe when you say that he operates the business like a business and as a hobbiest - BUT, clearly he is in the business for a long time - hence the long run comment.

Sean,

I totally hear you about the changing costs from suppliers and external factors (weather, consumer driven pricing etc - Shauns comments on ACANS is an example) - but everyone (owners) are concerned about the immediate bottom line, no long term thinkers. In your example, I would buy when the price was lowest (and I know many suppliers sell them for way less than $60) and house them - releasing them from your inventory when you needed to. Again, this requires savings, and money to do so, BUT most people run thier business with the slimest of monies to operate and wind up sacrificing when they truly need somethin in stock - this is exampled when stores try to sell you something as the electric, exotic, rare thingamajig - and you get there or you get it in your group order and it's mediocre at best.

Anyway, I am sure it's harder than I am oversimplifying, but there has to be a better mousetrap somewhere.

House

 

[marrone]

Hey Sean the clam reference wasn't about me was it :wink1:

 

[Sean]

just trying to let people know some of the ins and outs of the industry