Baby sea turtles, might hobbyists help?

[Anonymous]

That's a good point... I didn't really think of that. But look, I'm not saying that hobbyists should be serious researchers or even could be. All I'm saying is that the lines of communication between the two groups should be open much more than they are.

I am interested in why you think the lines of communication should be more open both ways between the two groups, and how you think those avenues are currently closed, or less open.

FWIW, I think it would be nice if there were easier avenues for 'advanced' hobbyists, but I do think they actually get heard as it is.

Like I said in my other post, most hobbyists simply can't read serious research articles. There's too much research and science jargon that they just don't get. So, I'll say it again, we need people who can act as "translators betwen the two worlds."

I kind of want to put that on the hobbyists shoulders. The jargon isn't all that hard to get, and most of what a hobbyist would be interested would be covered in the conclusions section. Furthermore, most hobbyists won't bother to do a search to find answers which makes me unsure if trying to spoon feed them more is the right approach.

Fun discussion.

 

[Anonymous]

Btw, I think I might have been misunderstood before... when it comes to this issue specifically (i.e. sea turtles), I think the idea of having hobbyists help is ridiculous and would be a disaster if it were even tried. My posts were meant to be about the relationship between academia and the hobby more generally.

That was clear to me!
I think to determine if the idea of fostering sea turtles had any merit we would need input from someone who researches sea turtles. Without actual information, we are all just making guesses. I think it is prolly pretty easy for someone interested to communicate with someone in the field.

 

[sihaya]

Ok, I have a good example. Just recently I came into contact with someone in academia who is something of an authority on Convolutriloba sp. He has a lot to say that contradicts a lot of what hobbyists believe about these creatures. However, most the journals in which he publishes his work are not those that many hobbyists would be familiar with, much less read.

In an ideal world, we'd have many more "advanced" aquarists familiar with these journals who would be able to spot this kind of information and bring it to the rest of the hobby community. It would be even better if people in academics could alert hobbyists to potentially helpful information. Even if they don't have time to write an article, even just a "hey, you guys might want to look at this" might be helpful. And sometimes this happens, but it doesn't happen enough. And even when it does, it shows up in places like "Advanced Aquarist" long before it ends up in the more "accessible" and/or ubiquitous sources of information.

Then there's another gap between the more informed aquarists and the newbies. Just think about how many newbie aquarists STILL think that bristle worms are undesirable or that carnation corals are easy to care for. It's really quite depressing.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, I have a good example. Just recently I came into contact with someone in academia who is something of an authority on Convolutriloba sp. He has a lot to say that contradicts a lot of what hobbyists believe about these creatures. However, most the journals in which he publishes his work are not those that many hobbyists would be familiar with, much less read.

Like what, out of curiosity?

 

[sihaya]

Oh, and as for why I think there is such a communication gap (or gaps)... for one thing, I think that, for whatever reason, a lot of seasoned aquarists tend to be reclusive if not misanthropic. And many of the ones that do venture out from their dens seem not to welcome being challenged or questioned. Obviously, I'm making generalizations here, and there are exceptions. But in general I think that some of the personalities of our hobby leaders and experts tend not to mesh well with academia or with the facilitation of knowledge and learning in general. IMO, too many of our leaders and experts are too proud and/or too stubborn while some just don't understand much science at all. Again, there are exceptions (like Martin Moe, Dr. Toonen, Dr. Holmes-Farley, etc.) but I'm talking about in general... and only in my personal observations.

Seriously, how many times have you seen someone politely and intelligently challenge an expert and the expert gets hostile or responds only by asking for the "credentials" of the challenger? Why would anyone in academia want to tolerate this kind of thing?

 

[sihaya]

Like what, out of curiosity?

Well, for one thing, they don't harm corals. They are not eaten by sixline wrasses (except by accident). In general, they're just not as much a pest as hobbyists think they are. Like algae, they pretty much only become a problem in overfed tanks. Killing them in mass is a bad idea and really not necessary. There's more interesting things about them too (like that feeding artemia will likely increase their populations). But I'd have to go back and look for more...

Granted, some more advanced aquarist might know or suspect these points already, but most aquarists I've met don't know the first thing about them.

 

[Anonymous]

i still don't understand the use of the term 'leaders'

i don't consider any of the 'names' 'leaders', and i have very little respect for at least one of them (not who you'd think )-who got most of his fame and fortune by lifting others knowledge experience, and merely relaying it to others

some i just plain disagree with wholeheartedly, and think are idjits for what they contend/say-they just had the luck/ability to get published, so they got the broohaha

being in print/published means very little, in and of itself

 

[sihaya]

at least one of them (not who you'd think )-who got most of his fame and fortune by lifting others knowledge experience, and merely relaying it to others

Well, that might describe all of them to some degree or another. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with gathering the knowledge of the experienced and relaying it to others... especially when, like I said, it seems like a lot of experienced aquarists don't want to be writing/speaking/etc. Of course, claiming an idea as exclusively your own when it's not is not good...

being in print/published means very little, in and of itself

I'd say that depends on the publication.

 

[Anonymous]

Like what, out of curiosity?

Well, for one thing, they don't harm corals. They are not eaten by sixline wrasses (except by accident). In general, they're just not as much a pest as hobbyists think they are. Like algae, they pretty much only become a problem in overfed tanks. Killing them in mass is a bad idea and really not necessary.

The above info is pretty common knowledge, and a direct line to a researcher won't make it any more or less accessible. A lot of hobbyists won't do a search for info, but even worse, many people simply only want to believe what they have already decided - hence the persistent idea that six line wrasse will eradicate the pest. One of the other problems with this critter is that it gets confused with the AEFW which is very problematic.

There are a ton of persistent 'reefers tales' that don't go away easily because they are easier than reality. Remember, most people think bristleworms are evil!

Granted, some more advanced aquarist might know or suspect these points already, but most aquarists I've met don't know the first thing about them.

Most aquarists don't know the first thing about protein skimming. Its the nature of the hobby - most people get into it without the basic 'study' that people that have been in it for a while end up doing (if they don't do it from the beginning). The people who find their way to 'good' online communities are few in terms of the overall numbers of people in the hobby. It seems to me that most of info I think you are getting at is available, but that doesn't mean that people will do the work to find it or that they will believe it when they get to it.

 

[Anonymous]

Like what, out of curiosity?

Well, for one thing, they don't harm corals. They are not eaten by sixline wrasses (except by accident). In general, they're just not as much a pest as hobbyists think they are. Like algae, they pretty much only become a problem in overfed tanks. Killing them in mass is a bad idea and really not necessary. There's more interesting things about them too (like that feeding artemia will likely increase their populations). But I'd have to go back and look for more...

Granted, some more advanced aquarist might know or suspect these points already, but most aquarists I've met don't know the first thing about them.

I don't think I've met a single aquarist who actually believes that they harm corals. :? Most people I've met just don't like the look of them. I tend to disagree, and don't go out to buy medications to kill them. They wax and wane and tend to stay at reasonable numbers in well kept tanks IME. I'm convinced that adult Chromis viridis decimate them, too, but that's way too far off topic for this thread.

More thoughts later, gotta go to work!

 

[Kalkbreath]

Most aquarists don't know the first thing about protein skimming. Its the nature of the hobby - most people get into it without the basic 'study' that people that have been in it for a while end up doing (if they don't do it from the beginning).

Most scientific researchers don't either . Especially not in their first years of study. Why would we expect aquarium hobbyists to on day one either?
Why do we hold the scientific community with any higher respect, then our industry ? Which of the two has been more successful?
The hobby has lead the way in reef keeping for twenty years.
Not the scientists.

Just how many show reef tanks are there being kept by the scientific community anyhow?
Where are these examples of husbandry superiority?
Show me one success full reef tank set up at a scientific facility and I will show you twenty successful reefs being kept by the public in the same city or town.
Heck the Ga aquarium has a staff of fifty well paid scientists and they still cant get rid of the red cynobacteria in their reef systems!

The scientific community failed to maintain reef systems prior to the hobby leading the way.... why would turtles be any different?

 

[Anonymous]

Most aquarists don't know the first thing about protein skimming. Its the nature of the hobby - most people get into it without the basic 'study' that people that have been in it for a while end up doing (if they don't do it from the beginning).

Most scientific researchers don't either . Especially not in their first years of study. Why would we expect aquarium hobbyists to on day one either?
Why do we hold the scientific community with any higher respect, then our industry ? Which of the two has been more successful?
The hobby has lead the way in reef keeping for twenty years.
Not the scientists.

A different but interesting point than the one I was making.

Just how many show reef tanks are there being kept by the scientific community anyhow?
Where are these examples of husbandry superiority?
Show me one success full reef tank set up at a scientific facility and I will show you twenty successful reefs being kept by the public in the same city or town.
Heck the Ga aquarium has a staff of fifty well paid scientists and they still cant get rid of the red cynobacteria in their reef systems!

The scientific community failed to maintain reef systems prior to the hobby leading the way.... why would turtles be any different?

It doesn't necessarily matter because it isn't an all or nothing situation. There are things that research finds out that a hobbyist generally won't be able to touch simply due to difficulty in making observations not anecdotal.

 

[Kalkbreath]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when your a small turtle out in the ocean many things can eat you.
We don't need more scientific minds pondering this issue.( or Fed. grants)

Its kinda like the game of baseball.
You can study the game all you want ,you can even know all there is to know about the game ...... but this hardly translates into one being good at "playing" the game.
Reef keeping or turtle husbandry is a series of events or playing the game so to speak.
Living as a turtle is an event or game as well, not a science.
The turtles need to be more successful at playing the game and keeping at bat beyond their first week or year out in the field..
Scientific study of of turtles over the past fifty years has lead to what breakthrough in the being eaten issue?

The fact that there is little more to learn or study with regards to raising turtles and this is why the scientific community has little interest in taking part .
I bet I could get ten-thousand hobbyists to take part and zero grant money would be required.

What the chances of the scientific coming to the plate and matching that potential?

 

[Anonymous]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when your a small turtle out in the ocean many things can eat you.
We don't need more scientific minds pondering this issue.( or Fed. grants)

Its kinda like the game of baseball.
You can study the game all you want ,you can even know all there is to know about the game ...... but this hardly translates into one being good at "playing" the game.
Reef keeping or turtle husbandry is a series of events or playing the game so to speak.
Living as a turtle is an event or game as well, not a science.
The turtles need to be more successful at playing the game and keeping at bat beyond their first week or year out in the field..
Scientific study of of turtles over the past fifty years has lead to what breakthrough in the being eaten issue?

The fact that there is little more to learn or study with regards to raising turtles and this is why the scientific community has little interest in taking part .
I bet I could get ten-thousand hobbyists to take part and zero grant money would be required.

What the chances of the scientific coming to the plate and matching that potential?

i'll take that bet-what do you want to wager?

 

[Anonymous]

I kind of want to put that on the hobbyists shoulders. The jargon isn't all that hard to get, and most of what a hobbyist would be interested would be covered in the conclusions section. Furthermore, most hobbyists won't bother to do a search to find answers which makes me unsure if trying to spoon feed them more is the right approach.

There are also folks that do dip or have dipped their toes in both ponds (research and hobby) that hobbyists could ask!

Yahknow, like, ahem, um...

Dr Ron??

 

[Anonymous]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when your a small turtle out in the ocean many things can eat you.
We don't need more scientific minds pondering this issue.( or Fed. grants)

We moved from turtles and on to generalities. However, since the turtles are federally protected, it isn't up to you who 'needs' to ponder the issue.

Its kinda like the game of baseball.
You can study the game all you want ,you can even know all there is to know about the game ...... but this hardly translates into one being good at "playing" the game.
Reef keeping or turtle husbandry is a series of events or playing the game so to speak.
Living as a turtle is an event or game as well, not a science.
The turtles need to be more successful at playing the game and keeping at bat beyond their first week or year out in the field..
Scientific study of of turtles over the past fifty years has lead to what breakthrough in the being eaten issue?

Beats me. Talk to someone in the field - perhaps they will agree with you.

The fact that there is little more to learn or study with regards to raising turtles and this is why the scientific community has little interest in taking part .

Have you talked to someone in the field, or is this an assessment from the nosebleed seats?

I bet I could get ten-thousand hobbyists to take part and zero grant money would be required.

With no money for oversight, logistics and planning, I would fear it would be a horrible program.

What the chances of the scientific coming to the plate and matching that potential?

The chances are zero until someone interested and talks to them about it. Until then, posting in this thread is just like yelling at the radio during a baseball game.[/url]

 

[Anonymous]

I kind of want to put that on the hobbyists shoulders. The jargon isn't all that hard to get, and most of what a hobbyist would be interested would be covered in the conclusions section. Furthermore, most hobbyists won't bother to do a search to find answers which makes me unsure if trying to spoon feed them more is the right approach.

There are also folks that do dip or have dipped their toes in both ponds (research and hobby) that hobbyists could ask!

Yahknow, like, ahem, um...

Dr Ron??

:lol: That worked out well!

 

[Anonymous]

The hobby has lead the way in reef keeping for twenty years.
Not the scientists.

Show me a scientist that has an interest in keeping reefs for scientific purpose.

Show me one success full reef tank set up at a scientific facility and I will show you twenty successful reefs being kept by the public in the same city or town.

Oh word? You think that hobbyists outnumber scientific facilities by 20 to 1 or so? :lol:

Heck the Ga aquarium has a staff of fifty well paid scientists and they still cant get rid of the red cynobacteria in their reef systems!

Husbandry staff are not scientists. That said, I'd say your libel is completely unfounded given what the staff there were forced to do with those systems and knowing who is involved with those systems personally.

The scientific community failed to maintain reef systems prior to the hobby leading the way....

You might be surprised at how long ago scientists were keeping live corals.

 

[Anonymous]

remember whos thread this is

 

[sihaya]

I don't think I've met a single aquarist who actually believes that they harm corals. :?

You ever worked at a LFS? I've met quite a few people who thought they were evil. I've met people who bought arrow crabs thinking this would solve their bristle worm "problem." :roll:

The thing I think we all have to keep in mind is that we all here are probably much more informed than the average reef hobbyist.

Thales: I suppose the extra info on these worms that the researcher has that I didn't mention isn't all that helpful to aquarists. So maybe this was a bad example. But I still think there's a lot of info out there in academia that doesn't get to hobbyists.