Baby sea turtles, might hobbyists help?

[Anonymous]

Aren't they federally protected? If they are, any discussion is pretty useless until you find a way around that hurdle.

Yes they are. Limited to reasearch labs and the like, but if you became a remote branch of that lab?????? I'm sure if someone could prove it would be benifical and cost saving it could be justified. There would be no wild collections, just "grants" from labs and existing captive reared corals.

FWIU, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There are a ton of rules in place to prevent research institutions from giving/selling/handing over stuff to private citizens.

 

[Anonymous]

Aren't they federally protected? If they are, any discussion is pretty useless until you find a way around that hurdle.

So too are fla. corals and gators.... yet we both know hobbyists do a better job at raising both.

Some hobbyists may do a better job. Most hobbyists do a dismal job. Coming up with a way to determine who should get the chance would be incredibly difficult.

All the government institutions combined dont have the capacity nor the ability of the million or so hobbyists.

Again, most hobbyists are killing machines. We forget that when we hang out at places like RDO.

Heck , are not there more big wild cats (like Tigers) living as pets in Florida then running wild in all of Asia? Humans are pretty darn good at raising pets.

And most of those tigers live in dreadful conditions. I'm not saying that farming out turtles would necessarily be a terrible idea, just that it wouldn't be an easy thing to make happen.

At least reef hobbyists would not likely eat their baby turtles, like they do in the Cayman Island farm.

You are right - reef hobbyists would be more likely to have them simply die for unknown reasons.

Only one out of five farmed the turtles are released into the wild, the majority are sold for food.

I think that is a great idea and had no problem with it when I was there. Less pressure on the wild populations.

 

[Kalkbreath]

But if we agree that only one in a million baby turtles makes it to adulthood............how could nobody raising baby turtles be better then letting hobbyists attempt to do so?


What if they agreed to feed the turtle to a seagull if it happened to die in while their care? (wink)

 

[Anonymous]

But if we agree that only one in a million baby turtles makes it to adulthood............how could nobody raising baby turtles be better then letting hobbyists attempt to do so?

I don't think I said that, however, it could be worse for the same reasons we don't let people keep dogs in shoe boxes just because a million of them are destroyed weekly.

It also sets a precedent that its ok for people to keep animals they have no business keeping. Trust me, I went through a lot of frustration trying to understand why the NRCC wouldn't sell animals they sell for live dissection and experimentation to hobbyists.

If you think it is a good idea, I think you would be better served discussing it with someone from an organization that has power to create some sort of pilot project. Then something might actually happen. Talking about it here is just talk.

 

[pwj1286]

i just think that would be too far out of the scope of your average hobbyist....thats why it should be left up to research labs.

I am getting to the point where i think corals should be put on the protection list....no I will take a bigger step. The whole ocean.

I work at a LFS and I see too many things that depress me.

...spend 4,000 dollars on live stock at a time....nothing left after a month. Who go out of town for 3 weeks and don't bother to have someone watch the tank. I get sick to my stomach of what some people do.

There are way too many people who don't have a clue. Just want instant gratification with no work. I try so hard to educate people, that this is more than a hobby, it is dedication and something you strive for. This is not a game, these are animals.

I get some retards that come into the store. Really close to retarded. I really don't think the hobby is ready for turtles. Not even close. It took Acropora almost 20 years to be successful and for the most part, it is a really simple animal. I can not imagine a turtle.

I know there can't be success without failure, but a lot has been lost to this hobby. The failure is bad when you don't care and 4,000 doesn't matter and your going to buy up some more and do it again. Learning nothing. Sea turtles are far too endangered for that to happen.



Thank God ORA breeds clowns. That puts a big dent in wild collection.

If anything, I think the hobby needs to look inward and aquaculture the things that are common to help out.

Aquaculturing Florida corals? Good idea...but you have to produce something and be successful in order to give back to the wild.

For the sea turtles...go stand on the beach and chase the gulls away.. that would be more help than a bunch of hobbyist killing a bunch of turtles. They are far too complex.
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[Anonymous]

Aren't they federally protected? If they are, any discussion is pretty useless until you find a way around that hurdle.

Yes they are. Limited to reasearch labs and the like, but if you became a remote branch of that lab?????? I'm sure if someone could prove it would be benifical and cost saving it could be justified. There would be no wild collections, just "grants" from labs and existing captive reared corals.

FWIU, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There are a ton of rules in place to prevent research institutions from giving/selling/handing over stuff to private citizens.

I understand that, but if an individual could proof as a vital asset to the research and/or propagation of an endangered species why would that not be taken advantage of. Most of the hobbiest I know could handel the responsibility.

 

[Anonymous]

Aren't they federally protected? If they are, any discussion is pretty useless until you find a way around that hurdle.

Yes they are. Limited to reasearch labs and the like, but if you became a remote branch of that lab?????? I'm sure if someone could prove it would be benifical and cost saving it could be justified. There would be no wild collections, just "grants" from labs and existing captive reared corals.

FWIU, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There are a ton of rules in place to prevent research institutions from giving/selling/handing over stuff to private citizens.

I understand that, but if an individual could proof as a vital asset to the research and/or propagation of an endangered species why would that not be taken advantage of. Most of the hobbiest I know could handel the responsibility.

I don't think any organization has time to check out that proof. Just imagine the number of applications a group would get if they announced they were looking for people to house sea turtles.

I could list ten hobbyists that have proven themselves in the cephalopod world, but the NRCC still won't supply them with animals (though the NRCC is happy to take animals from them).

The rules are there to protect the animals. Do I agree with them? In some cases, no. In many cases, yes. Do I think the rules are going to change? No.

 

[Anonymous]

The whole ocean.

and the whole world will do without seafood ? the c ollection pressures of this hobby are MINISCULE compared to recreation/tourism/seafood industry/bycatch etc etc etc

Thank God ORA breeds clowns. That puts a big dent in wild collection.

er- no it doesn't-just as many wild caught clowns are being brought in now (well, maybe a tad less because of availability, but only because of that)-every wholesaler pretty much sells out of wild caught clowns as fast as they bring them in, as i see every week-where on earth do you get your information ?

the idea that captive propagation reduces any type of wild caught pressures is a feel good self delusional fallacy with NO basis in any research of fact by the ignorant hobbyists that desire to get a feely good pro-environmentalist image of one of the LEAST pro-environment hobbies on the face of the planet :roll:

 

[pwj1286]

argh what happened to my post in response to vitz? I wont bother making a new one.
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[corallimorph]

Although most of the Hobbiests right here,.. seem responsible..what about the majority of half-assed aquarists....
Who would moniter them?..
Who would test each body of water to ensure unwanted pathogens(if you could even identify them)were presant or not ?
Where when and what size do you release you baby turtle,or frag?
Do all hobbiests really know were their corals came from(or turtle)..I don't think so!!
I've seen so many reef tanks were upper-reef corals are housed low in the tank and visa -versa..I 've seen many hobbiest's tanks were they didn't even know witch ocean their corals were from..let alone witch exact part of the echo-system(physicaly).
Again as someone pointed out earlier.....what happened with a bunch of Atlantic corals taken(under permit ) from The Key West Naval Mole??????
I belive this man is/was a respected hobbiest .

 

[sihaya]

I belive this man is/was a respected hobbiest .

Dude... ok, few things: 1) we reefers tend not to identify with our leaders even when they don't haul corals out of the keys and 2) you can't go judging all of us by the irresponsible ones and 3) part of the reason we don't know what the heck we're doing half the time is because too much of the academic world is too disgusted with us (or just "too busy") to want to help us. How many scientists and researchers do you see trying to help hobbyists? Yes, I know, there are some... but not enough (hint, hint).

If scientists and researchers want us to be more responsible and knowledgeable than they need to throw us a line every now and then. And I know that's arguably what they did with the CDHC project (all the more reason the failure of it was so tragic), but it's not fair to give up on us all because of that one disaster.

And like I've said so many times, if we hobbyists could just get our acts together, I think we have a lot we could share with the academic/research world too. We sit and watch our corals day in and day out. We slave over our tanks and those of us who stick with it long enough can develop a deep passion for and understanding of these animals. That can't not be worth something.

 

[pwj1286]

maybe some sort of Reef research facility. Where anyone can come, and its none of these elitist and your average joe would be on the same level.

it wont be a LFS shop, just a place where people can set up tanks. Different equipment on different people's tanks. People coming and going as they please taking care of their tanks.

A good community type thing. I think that would progress the hobby forward. Online is just so cold.

The turtle thing is sooo far away. I read a couple of small articles about turtles and they just seem so far out there. I mean Ive read a lot about land tortoises, because my friends have them....they are not easy either. They need a lot to grow and thrive. I don't think you guys know what you are getting into at all. this is no red ear slider.

I think the only way it could work if we lived in there environment....somewhere on an islands or at least the coast. close to the environment where they live.
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[corallimorph]

I think the only way it could work if we lived in there environment....somewhere on an islands or at least the coast. close to the environment where they live.
_________________Exactly..a hobbiest in...oh...lets say...Ohio wouldn't/couldn't be held responsible .
For there would be far too much overhead to have people in place,taveling all over the country to make sure every turtle or frag,lion,etc..was being cared for properly,(To regulate it)
Lets say Sara was the best baby turtle keeper there was...after a program like this began..then Sara became deathly ill......would Sara's Mother step-up to the plate, and care for that turtle,or frag?
If Little Jimmy turned out to be the best Acropora palmata keeper and then little Jimmy dies in a car accident...would Jimmy's Dad take over?
My point is that as careful and serious as each of us are....we don't have "back -up" biologists at our home....most research facilities do.

If little Jimmy died would getting that turtle,or frag back to it's natural enviornment or to another Qualified keeper be the first thing on that families mind.....NO F-ING WAY!!! that animal would have to sit and "take it" until somtime after the funeral.

 

[Anonymous]

part of the reason we don't know what the heck we're doing half the time is because too much of the academic world is too disgusted with us (or just "too busy") to want to help us. How many scientists and researchers do you see trying to help hobbyists? Yes, I know, there are some... but not enough (hint, hint).

You know about the life of a scientist or researcher - they get paid very little and they are overworked. To expect them to spend even more of their time doing gratis work seems like expecting a lot.

If scientists and researchers want us to be more responsible and knowledgeable than they need to throw us a line every now and then.

I don't know if thats what they really want. I think many of them would like the hobby shut down all together due to its wholesale killing of animals and destruction of habitat. In the hobby we throw around terms like responsible and sustainable, but IMO the reality is we are nowhere near either and due to the nature of the industry I don't see it really ever going that way.

And like I've said so many times, if we hobbyists could just get our acts together, I think we have a lot we could share with the academic/research world too.

I don't think its up to us, it up to them.

We sit and watch our corals day in and day out. We slave over our tanks and those of us who stick with it long enough can develop a deep passion for and understanding of these animals. That can't not be worth something.

It is worth something, however what it is worth is anecdotal, not scientific.

 

[Anonymous]

maybe some sort of Reef research facility. Where anyone can come, and its none of these elitist and your average joe would be on the same level.

A great idea. You need a lot of money to get something like that going, but it happens. Don't wait for it to come form the research side because there isn't enough money there.

 

[Anonymous]

I belive this man is/was a respected hobbiest .

Dude... ok, few things: 1) we reefers tend not to identify with our leaders even when they don't haul corals out of the keys and 2) you can't go judging all of us by the irresponsible ones and 3) part of the reason we don't know what the heck we're doing half the time is because too much of the academic world is too disgusted with us (or just "too busy") to want to help us. How many scientists and researchers do you see trying to help hobbyists? Yes, I know, there are some... but not enough (hint, hint).

If scientists and researchers want us to be more responsible and knowledgeable than they need to throw us a line every now and then. And I know that's arguably what they did with the CDHC project (all the more reason the failure of it was so tragic), but it's not fair to give up on us all because of that one disaster.

And like I've said so many times, if we hobbyists could just get our acts together, I think we have a lot we could share with the academic/research world too. We sit and watch our corals day in and day out. We slave over our tanks and those of us who stick with it long enough can develop a deep passion for and understanding of these animals. That can't not be worth something.

As far as I know the same peer reviewed scientific publications about coral research are available to hobbyists and science-folk alike. What kind of "line" are you asking to be thrown to help hobbyists out? :?

 

[Anonymous]

we have 'leaders' ?

:lol:

 

[sihaya]

As far as I know the same peer reviewed scientific publications about coral research are available to hobbyists and science-folk alike.

Good point... and I'm doing my best to try and read these articles and "translate" them for people. The problem is that the average hobbyist doesn't know how to read science, much less how to critique a study design. I can do this because I started out in medical school (and so I know all the big chem and bio words) and because I've done research and written research papers. For example, when I realized that hobbyists were actually thinking that the Borneman-Lowe salt study constituted "rigorous science" I wrote quite a long explanation of why the study was destined to be worthless before it even started.

I've also summarized and "translated" research papers some of the hobby experts like to refer without giving any real explanation of. But it gets kinda hard to keep up when I have to, like, go to law school sometimes... :roll:

 

[sihaya]

My point is that as careful and serious as each of us are....we don't have "back -up" biologists at our home....most research facilities do.

That's a good point... I didn't really think of that. But look, I'm not saying that hobbyists should be serious researchers or even could be. All I'm saying is that the lines of communication between the two groups should be open much more than they are. Like I said in my other post, most hobbyists simply can't read serious research articles. There's too much research and science jargon that they just don't get. So, I'll say it again, we need people who can act as "translators betwen the two worlds."

And dude, I hate to say this, but the reefs are going to die... and not because of hobbyists. They're going to die because of global warming, over-fishing, and everything else our rapacious species causes. Those of use keeping corals in aquariums need to take this and ourselves seriously because there may come a day when many species of corals are extinct everywhere but in captivity. Not that I think it will happen within 50 years, but it might very well happen within 100. And if by then we're still telling ourselves that all corals need is light and calcium, how tragic would that be?

 

[sihaya]

Btw, I think I might have been misunderstood before... when it comes to this issue specifically (i.e. sea turtles), I think the idea of having hobbyists help is ridiculous and would be a disaster if it were even tried. My posts were meant to be about the relationship between academia and the hobby more generally.