Varied Ph result

[ChrisRD]

Ok... so all buffers are just like white-out on a computer screen. And the real answer to his problem is related to a house that is too air tight without any air circulation. I see. The house is so closed up that humans are able to survive in it, having a demand in O2 far greater than a fish, but a fish can not and the air is so saturated with CO2 that the CO2 is trapped inside the tank and that explains why his pH is low. Of course, humans are not bothered by all that CO2.

Do you know what a buffer is and how it works? Do you know how and when crushed coral or aragonite sand will kick in to maintain your pH? Do you know the relation between alk and pH? Do you even have a clue about the above questions?

That "closed up" house explanation is so far fetch that it's not even funny.

Anyway, I gave my answer is backed it up with a scientific explanation. Now I'm not about to give you a crash chemistry 101 course here.

End of discussion for me.
PS: No, I'm not in the mood tonight. S**t happens. Signing off.

SB, your participation here is welcome but please try to keep it civil.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

Chris : Alk and pH go hand in hand, in most cases. A low alk will be generally acidic, and a high alk will be more basic. Now the use of a REAL buffer, not just some Sodium Bicarbonate like some people use (which is NOT a REAL buffer), is actually beneficial to your tank. Furthermore, what do you think they put in your Salt mix? NaCl only? I don't think so. Salt mixes all contain buffering ingredients. Also, a real buffer is a made not only of alk raising compounds like sodium carbonate or bicarbonate but also some metals like borate, strontium, magnesium just to name those. Furthermore, a buffer, a real one, will not raise your pH above the level it's supposed to even if you overdose it by accident.

Some salt mixes are better than others at buffering the pH at a "normal" level. In my case, whit the water I have, Red Sea doesn't cut it. I always had to buffer my pH with Seachem Marine buffer 8.3. Otherwise, my pH would remain at 7.8.

On a general note, stories like a house to air tight that your aquarium can not get proper gas exchange is totally off the wall. People would die in those house by suffocation. Of course, I fully agree that an air tight tank is not the way to go but I doubt that this is the case here.

Guy : Given the type of answer you gave in this thread, I don't think that you can teach me anything in chemistry that I don't already know. You see, I studied the stuff and got a degree in it. pH and Alk, the interaction between the 2 is not an easy subject and is quite complex. I'm not about to start a paper on it either. I really don't have the time nor the energy to devote to such an activity. But fortunately for you, everything is there, on the web if you care to search and study it.

Frag : The "short bus"... I'm not on it and I don't have a ticket to get on. So swear to god all you want and ask me if I care... :lol: :lol:

And NOW... since you guys seem to know quite a lot about chemistry, how will he get his pH right? Remember, his pH is below "normal" day or night.

Final Note : Chris, I am keeping it civil. I just find it a bit hard to understand why some people in here feel the need to "make up" off-the-wall theories such as an air tight home and that using a buffer to correct your pH can cause more harm than good. If one is clueless as to why and how to fix it, I think that one should propbably read rather than post nonsense and make things more complicated than they already are. This is not helping the guy that asked the question, it's just creating confusion more than anything else. And if you take time to read the whole thread, you will see that I'm not the only one that thinks that some theories expressed here are simply deprived of any form of logic and are not factual. I tried my best to remain logic and factual in this thread but some people seem more interesting in starting a p*ssing contest than help the guy who asked a question. Not to mention being told I was 2 steps from the "short bus". But that's normal... happens all the time with the "click" or the "elite-long-time-member-I-can-say-what-I-want-and-you-are-not-to-debate-with-me" group.

 

[Anonymous]

wow that was intense........ anywase did we ever find out weither or not the problem was co2 related or not. i am looking for a responce from the original poster and cannot seem to find it. did we scare you please let us know what is going on. :?:

 

[Anonymous]

Hard to say. I think darren needs to give a bit more info on his system.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

G'day,

well it did not change overnight, I got up at 2am and re-tested it was 7.9 now i can see im going to have to re-learn some chemistry however the fact that it has been stable when i have tested 7.8-79 either with liquid test and or digital kit do i need do do something about it?

I have so calcium carbonate rock that is ussually for cichlid tank(photo below) will this assist in boosting ph? ar just act as a buffer?

Regards Darren

Since no one answered your question, your rocks will help a bit to buffer the pH, but will not raise it. You see, in order for the rock to "activate", your water needs to drop below pH 7.0 and become acidic. Then the rock will neutralise the acid by disolving. Now, since your full tank will not drop below 7.0 (at least, it's not probable), your rocks will only act where decaying material falls on it and starts to rot away and become acidic. Then the rock will counteract this acid and neutralise it. Same goes for your substarte, if any and if made of alkaline substances like crushed coral, aragonite and whatnot.

Bottom line, you could fill your whole aquarium with those stones and the pH would not move much from the current value. If you wish to test this reaction, take a piece of rock and dry it. Then, drop a bit of your aquarium water on it? Does it do anything? No. Then do the same with vinegar. You will see bubbles fizzing. That the acid (vinegar) being neutralised by the rock and it's transformed into water + CO2. I know... CO2 again. It's everywhere! 8O

HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Also, a real buffer is a made not only of alk raising compounds like sodium carbonate or bicarbonate but also some metals like borate, strontium, magnesium just to name those. Furthermore, a buffer, a real one, will not raise your pH above the level it's supposed to even if you overdose it by accident.

I just don't subscribe to the opinion that raising Borate levels 10X natural seawater levels is a good thing. It's just an opinion different from yours, that doesn't mean anything beyond it being a different opinion.

I do not have a degree in chemistry but I do have many years of helping people with their tank. Excess CO2 is almost always the cause of chronic low PH, sometimes it's rotting detritus. I'm not asking you to believe that opening a window can solve a low PH problem but when someone gives dangerous advice like you did I have to comment. The hobbiest will do what they think is best , I was just pointing out that adding a "buffer" when ALK is unknown is more likely to cause a problem than solve one. With a PH of 7.9 it's better to do nothing than to blindly start adding chemicals.

I'll never figure out why some people have to resort to insults when most of us have the same goal.

 

[Anonymous]

dearis - Here is an outstanding article on low PH by Dr. Holmes-Farley. I believe you will find it very informative and useful in your case.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

I found this section quite interesting -

Low pH Due to High Indoor Carbon Dioxide Levels

High indoor carbon dioxide levels can also lead to low pH problems in many tanks. Respiration by people and pets, the use of un-vented appliances burning natural gas (e.g., ovens and stoves) and the use of CaCO3/CO2 reactors can lead to high indoor carbon dioxide levels. The level of carbon dioxide can easily be more than twice that of exterior air, and this excess can substantially lower the pH. This problem is especially severe in newer, more airtight homes. It is unlikely to be a problem in homes like mine where the wind can be felt blowing around old window frames.

Many aquarists have found that opening a window near the tank can significantly raise the pH within a day or two. Unfortunately, those aquarists living in colder climates cannot comfortably open windows in the winter. Some have found it useful in these situations to run a pipe or tubing from the outside to the air input of a skimmer, where fresh, exterior air is rapidly mixed with the tank water. Be advised, though, that if the aquarist happens to live in an area where insecticides are periodically sprayed for mosquito control (such as in many metropolitan areas of the South), it is important to place some type of carbon filter at the air intake to prevent these chemicals from entering the aquarium.

 

[ChrisRD]

Sponge Bob, IMO you are making lots of erroneous assumptions here about what people know and don't know and showing your inexperience in the hobby at the same time. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so it's fine by me if you choose to take that approach, however, I find your posting style to be arrogant, sarcastic and condescending at times. I know some others here feel the same way. I'll ask again that you try to express your opinions in a less abrasive manner. If you can't conduct yourself in a civil manner please refrain from posting.

I think we can all agree that we don't yet have enough information to give a good answer to the initial question so it probably makes sense to give the poster a chance to respond.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

Also, a real buffer is a made not only of alk raising compounds like sodium carbonate or bicarbonate but also some metals like borate, strontium, magnesium just to name those. Furthermore, a buffer, a real one, will not raise your pH above the level it's supposed to even if you overdose it by accident.

I just don't subscribe to the opinion that raising Borate levels 10X natural seawater levels is a good thing. It's just an opinion different from yours, that doesn't mean anything beyond it being a different opinion.

I do not have a degree in chemistry but I do have many years of helping people with their tank. Excess CO2 is almost always the cause of chronic low PH, sometimes it's rotting detritus. I'm not asking you to believe that opening a window can solve a low PH problem but when someone gives dangerous advice like you did I have to comment. The hobbiest will do what they think is best , I was just pointing out that adding a "buffer" when ALK is unknown is more likely to cause a problem than solve one. With a PH of 7.9 it's better to do nothing than to blindly start adding chemicals.

I'll never figure out why some people have to resort to insults when most of us have the same goal.

Who said to increase the level of Borate 10x the normal level? Do you have other "make believe" stories about what I said that you wish to share. Oh... and by the way, it was not necessary to say that you did not study chemistry, it is an evidence. Instead of making up dramatical stories about using pH buffers, why don't you get your facts right.

Please indicate by quoting me when I resorted to insults towards you? AFAIK, I did no such thing. I did however criticize your opinion and advice, like you did for mine. There is a huge difference between "debating" and "insulting". If you are too thin skinned, it's a problem I can not help you with. However, I will, out of good faith, apologise, if you felt personnally insulted by my replies. The target was not you personnally but rather the ideas that you've expressed. If you take time to read again all my posts, you will be able to verify that it is factual and true.

 

[Anonymous]

seems like someone needs to go out for a smoke and a beer. please stop the hostile attacks. were all friends here. besides what about the poor guy who asked the question................ what does he have to say.

 

[Anonymous]

Who said to increase the level of Borate 10x the normal level? Do you have other "make believe" stories about what I said that you wish to share. Oh... and by the way, it was not necessary to say that you did not study chemistry, it is an evidence.

I know you won't take my word for it but someday when you get a chance you should test your Borate levels after using SeaChem Marine Buffer as directed on the label.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

Sponge Bob, IMO you are making lots of erroneous assumptions here about what people know and don't know and showing your inexperience in the hobby at the same time. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so it's fine by me if you choose to take that approach, however, I find your posting style to be arrogant, sarcastic and condescending at times. I know some others here feel the same way. I'll ask again that you try to express your opinions in a less abrasive manner. If you can't conduct yourself in a civil manner please refrain from posting.

I think we can all agree that we don't yet have enough information to give a good answer to the initial question so it probably makes sense to give the poster a chance to respond.

Arrogant, sarcastic and condescendant huh? Anything else? You bunch of americans are so thin skinned and are sooooooo easily offended that it's not even funny. You see sarcasm, arrogance and condescendance any time someone dares to post a diffent opinion or even more so, when your opinion is challenged.

I agree that we lack some information but the initial question was pertaining to how come the pH lowers during the night. I have posted an explanation and also the chemical reaction that explains why. Then followed a series of "off-the-wall" theories where O2 is lacking, closed house where you can't start a fire and whatnot. I'm all for freedom of speach but this is not a "joke site", it's a helping forum where people come and ask questions. I think they deserve answers that make the least bit of sense.

Sorry Chris, that response would have been sent in private, like it should have been, but since you decided to attack me publically, I think I deserve the right to defend myself publically as well.

 

[ChrisRD]

Arrogant, sarcastic and condescendant huh? Anything else? You bunch of americans are so thin skinned and are sooooooo easily offended that it's not even funny. You see sarcasm, arrogance and condescendance any time someone dares to post a diffent opinion or even more so, when your opinion is challenged.

No. I see sarcasm and arrogance when I see sarcasm and arrogance. If you read a few of your posts in this thread it should be clear what I'm referring to.

I agree that we lack some information but the initial question was pertaining to how come the pH lowers during the night.

Actually, that was not the original question.

I have posted an explanation and also the chemical reaction that explains why. Then followed a series of "off-the-wall" theories where O2 is lacking, closed house where you can't start a fire and whatnot. I'm all for freedom of speach but this is not a "joke site", it's a helping forum where people come and ask questions. I think they deserve answers that make the least bit of sense.

The original poster had a question about possible low pH readings. Several reasonable suggestions have been made - nothing "off-the-wall". Read the reference Guy provided for you....

Sorry Chris, that response would have been sent in private, like it should have been, but since you decided to attack me publically, I think I deserve the right to defend myself publically as well.

I am not attacking you. I'm asking you to try participating in these threads in a civil manner. If you can't honor this simple request please don't post.

If you're really interested in helping the original poster maybe you should refrain from derailing this thread any further and give the poster a chance to respond with more information.

 

[Anonymous]

Amazing.

They have low ph and nitrates. Plant life fixes both. It's really that simple. Even Dr. Holmes Farley agreed with me in a pm. Plant life will "suck up" the carbon dioxide so that in a 24 hour period the tank becomes a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen. Removing carbon dioxide and adding oxygen to the air surrounding the tank.

 

[Anonymous]

Darren

Before this goes down the really silly. Can you tell me more about your system? Do you have a skimmer? What are you dosing and how often? Do you run any kind of reactor? Do you have a cover on your tank? Etc.

 

[Sponge_Bob]

On top of what Mark asked, please also include the following :

- Filtration if any
- Powerheads if any, number, gph for each, placement in tank
- Sump if any
- Size of tank including dimensions
- Lighting
- Substrate
- Live Rocks, amount.
- Water parms : Ammo, Nitrites, Nitrates, pH (daytime), Alkalinity, Salinity or Specific Gravity, Calcium, Phosphate.
- Fish population
- Corals / inverts if any

 

[Anonymous]

On top of what Mark asked, please also include the following :

- Filtration if any
- Powerheads if any, number, gph for each, placement in tank
- Sump if any
- Size of tank including dimensions
- Lighting
- Substrate
- Live Rocks, amount.
- Water parms : Ammo, Nitrites, Nitrates, pH (daytime), Alkalinity, Salinity or Specific Gravity, Calcium, Phosphate.
- Fish population
- Corals / inverts if any

Do you even have an idea as to why I am asking the question I did?

 

[Sponge_Bob]

On top of what Mark asked, please also include the following :

- Filtration if any
- Powerheads if any, number, gph for each, placement in tank
- Sump if any
- Size of tank including dimensions
- Lighting
- Substrate
- Live Rocks, amount.
- Water parms : Ammo, Nitrites, Nitrates, pH (daytime), Alkalinity, Salinity or Specific Gravity, Calcium, Phosphate.
- Fish population
- Corals / inverts if any

Do you even have an idea as to why I am asking the question I did?

Oh just shut it, will you!!! I asked those questions to complement your set of unprecised questions. Gawd, do I have to spell EVERYTHING for you to understand? We need all the details we can have. That's why I posted those questions after your post...as a complement. Geee... get a grip man!

 

[Len]

Same warning goes for this topic. Back on topic or I'll lock it. Let's refrain from the useless pettiness.

 

[fungia]

well it did not change overnight, I got up at 2am and re-tested it was 7.9

hi darren, have you tried testing it when the lights are on, maybe about 6pm? at 2am the ph is going to be low.