Inland Reef / Reefs.org Salt Analysis Project

[andrejka]

Folks,

Please, don't forget that we are dealing with ASW samples, not NSW. Copper level in all ASWs going to be in 100-200 ppb range, while it's 0.2-0.3 ppb in NSW. The same goes for the rest of "trace" metals: we are going to get hundreds and thousands times higher concentrations of them in ALL salt mixes comparatively to natural sea water (see Atkinson and Bingman, 1999)! I find it difficult to believe that any salt mix which cost $50 per 50 lb (200 G bucket) would contain less heavy metals than analytical grade sodium chloride from 'Sigma', let's say, with the cheapest one being at $150/50 lb (this particular one would give us about 100 ppb of copper if dissolved to give seawater salinity).

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Please, don't forget that we are dealing with ASW samples, not NSW. Copper level in all ASWs going to be in 100-200 ppb range, while it's 0.2-0.3 ppb in NSW.

Probably. And the issues are not so extreme for higher metals levels, I quite agree.

But if we are going to make assertions about metals levels in mixes that supposedly are "better", then the levels will be MUCH lower the 100 ppb. The Marinemix that Ron used claims to be 1 ppb copper. That's not much above NSW.

FWIW, my tank is only 10-13 ppb copper using only IO salt mix. I see no reason to make any big doo-dah of a mix unless the values are much lower than what I have in my tank using Instant Ocean.

 

[andrejka]

I see no reason to make any big doo-dah of a mix unless the values are much lower than what I have in my tank using Instant Ocean.

Agreed!!! And there is NO such a salt mix, unfortunately. The reason for low heavy metal concentrations in the ocean is marine organisms, which utilize/sequester/detoxify them (which happens in our tanks as well ).

 

[MattM]

Just to update - we're still talking with the labs. We got a quote for a much better price per test, but the element list is a little different.

We are using the Combi-San test for comparison, the element list we got for that is here: http://www.reefs.org/library/article/co ... lysis.html

The lab with the best price quote has a standard ICPMS list adds the following elements to the Combi-San list:

Uranium
Zirconium
Thorium

But they are missing:

Bromine
Iodide
Mercury
Sulfur
Silicon
Yttrium

We are talking with them about getting at least Bromine, Iodide and Mercury included, and what effect that would have on the price.

 

[reefNewbie]

LOL i sure as hell hope that there wouldnt be any uranium in the samples, otherwise we might find glowing green tanks 8O

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Matt:

I'd suggest that when you have the samples made, you measure them yourself for ammonia and nitrite. I assume that you have a good kit handy. :mrgreen:

 

[MattM]

Randy -

Do you think a hobbyist-grade test kit (even a Hach or LaMotte) would be accurate enough for this effort?

 

[Anonymous]

Are your testing bio-assay as well as marine mix with dechlor?

 

[JohnL]

Here's the current tally of the donations:

Direct donations received: $645.00
Received from Reef Central: $1300.00 (Check is in the mail from John)
Spent so far on testing: $0.00

Remaining funds available: $1945.00

Next update: Friday, 28 March (No Sooner, No Later :wink

How did we do this week?

 

[MattM]

Are your testing bio-assay as well as marine mix with dechlor?

We'll look into adding it.

John -

Looks like Tom forgot to post an update. I'll remind him today - it's been a little hectic with the construction of our new store underway.

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Do you think a hobbyist-grade test kit (even a Hach or LaMotte) would be accurate enough for this effort?

Not knowing how sensitive urchin embryos might be to ammonia, I have no idea. If you did see a difference, that could be a lead to follow up. If not, then you might consider whether it is worth the extra money to get a good ammonia test somewhere.


Craig reported values that varied a lot, with IO at 10 umol/kg, or about 0.14 ppm. Other salt mixes were less than a tenth that value. So I'd look to be able to detect 0.1 ppm, which kits at least claim to be able to do.


http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm ... efault.asp

 

[randy holmes-farley]

About 4 pages into this discussion about Ron's tests:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=168100

Habib posted a link to a study of ammonia on urchin embryos.

http://www.sccwrp.org/pubs/annrpt/94-95/art-07.htm

It suggests taht the test kits should have ample ability ot see important ammonia differences, as long as the pH of the water samples is not too high.

This result, which aquarists known well in other situations, is that ammonia toxicity is very pH dependent. If the ammonia in the ASW is fairly low but the pH is fairly high, the toxicity can still be a problem.

 

[JohnL]

John - Looks like Tom forgot to post an update. I'll remind him today - it's been a little hectic with the construction of our new store underway.

Thanks Matt.

 

[jamesw]

Hi Guys,

I work with some of the bioassay labs that test discharge from oil and gas platforms here in the Gulf of Mexico. They commonly use M. bahia and sheepshead minnows for acute toxicity testing.

One of them suggested that the reason that ASW is not a good medium for raising urchin larvae is that there is something MISSING in the ASW, as opposed to TOO MUCH of something else (heavy metals, etc). Is it possible that there is something found in NSW and in the biosea mix that is not found in the other mixes?

Cheers
James

 

[randy holmes-farley]

That's certainly a possibility.

 

[JohnL]

John - Looks like Tom forgot to post an update. I'll remind him today - it's been a little hectic with the construction of our new store underway.

Matt, is there any chance of getting a weekly update this week?

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the delay some of you may have noticed I haven't been posting on RDO at all lately because we are so busy with the move and the SCWD P-Buy

Here's the current tally of the donations:

Direct donations received: $770.00
Received from Reef Central: $1300.00
Spent so far on testing: $0.00

Remaining funds available: $2070.00

 

[JohnL]

Could we start by testing the four salts used in Ron's study?

 

[andrejka]

I second John's suggestion. It doesn't seem as we gona collect much more funds for the study

 

[jamesw]

Actually, that's not correct.

We are working on a program to raise more funds for the study - so let's not be premature. Details to be released soon.

In my humble opinion (and I can't speak for Inland Reef), it would not be prudent to develop a testing protocol until we know the budget for the study. You can't "go back and test for XYZ now that we can afford it" once 1/2 the tests have been run - for example.

Sincerely,
James Wiseman