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clarionreef

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Vitz,
mark@mac wrote:
export pack vs. domestic pack either way... if 615 boxes is but a drop in the bucket, what is just 15 boxes????? a mere fraction of a drop????

And you write;
i'm fairly certain you're missing my point (?)

Mark makes the relevant addendum to my basic point.
You are on a different tangent...one that suggests the conservative figure of 600 boxes is a small number for Filipinos working away from home.
If it is...then you must agree that 15 is smaller, right?
Steve
 

clarionreef

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And of course we are talking of fish collecting...and boxes of fish.
Not boxes of coral and live rock .
Filipino imports are not brought in to do simpler work like gather coral and rock.
Steve
 
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cortez marine":11abj6kn said:
Vitz,
mark@mac wrote:
export pack vs. domestic pack either way... if 615 boxes is but a drop in the bucket, what is just 15 boxes????? a mere fraction of a drop????

And you write;
i'm fairly certain you're missing my point (?)

Mark makes the relevant addendum to my basic point.
You are on a different tangent...one that suggests the conservative figure of 600 boxes is a small number for Filipinos working away from home.
If it is...then you must agree that 15 is smaller, right?
Steve

lol-you're also missing my point

i'm not addressing at all the value (in morality, etc) of that number, or what a good thing it is-nor is it the intent to belittle it in any way

i want to know how you can arrive at the statement you made re: how many stores in can actually supply, given that it's still a TINY FRACTION of the commerce going on in MO fish in this country.just petco across the u.s. alone could swallow that all up and not even belch lightly :P

i see how many fish move through a decent size (if not large, heh) wholesaler weekly-how on earth can 615 boxes supply 'any' store

i just want an explanation/clarification of your statement, as i think it's highly inaccurate and misleading
 

clarionreef

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Vitz
Ignoring the point of the thread is fine....but you should then start your own.
I get your point. Its simple and small...
600 boxes compared to 6,000. Wow...such a numerical difference.

The original point I made was the output of MAC divers vs. a few dozen non MAC DIVERS....stated in conservative terms.
Its probabaly a lot more then 600 boxes of fish that they produce and MAC is still probably stuck on 15 boxes a week.
A few dozen divers in the South Pacific do not catch as many fish as a thousand in the Philippines do.
But thats too obvious to point out.
If however, the movement to train were sincere...these few dozen could have been multiplied many times. Then they would be collecting thousands of boxes.
The value of the point was to illustrate what could have been done if MAC were sincere and competent.
Steve
 
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cortez marine":33ep1o25 said:
Vitz
Ignoring the point of the thread is fine....but you should then start your own.
I get your point. Its simple and small
...
600 boxes compared to 6,000. Wow...such a numerical difference.

The original point I made was the output of MAC divers vs. a few dozen non MAC DIVERS....stated in conservative terms.
Its probabaly a lot more then 600 boxes of fish that they produce and MAC is still probably stuck on 15 boxes a week.
A few dozen divers in the South Pacific do not catch as many fish as a thousand in the Philippines do.
But thats too obvious to point out.
If however, the movement to train were sincere...these few dozen could have been multiplied many times. Then they would be collecting thousands of boxes.
The value of the point was to illustrate what could have been done if MAC were sincere and competent.
Steve

then why did YOU say it was enough to supply any store ? :lol:

your obvious snobbery in replying isn't un-noticed, either

beware of hubris-it's becoming to no-one
 

clarionreef

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ooohh boy,
The statement that the variety is now available to supply any store with netcaught fish who wants it is a simple one.

A total netcaught supply to supply all stores is not available.

Since few stores want all netcaught fish and will hardly strive or sacrifice for them, theres plenty to go around to establish an all netcaught fish store to any/all who wish to.
Steve
 
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cortez marine":2u01rjqj said:
ooohh boy,
The statement that the variety is now available to supply any store with netcaught fish who wants it is a simple one.

A total netcaught supply to supply all stores is not available.

Since few stores want all netcaught fish and will hardly strive or sacrifice for them, theres plenty to go around to establish an all netcaught fish store to any/all who wish to.
Steve


There are enough netcaught fish now in variety and abundance to stock any store

pardon my being possibly mildly pedantic, but the two statements are hardly the same


very different both in wording and in implication


but thank you for clarifying :)
 

clarionreef

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Quote:
"There are enough netcaught fish now in variety and abundance to stock any store ."

Any store...not every store.
Light years apart in meaning.

The refusal of retailers thru their customers to insist on netcaught fish does make a mockery of the eco-labeling attempt...doesn't it?
People will not even do without pesticide and chemical laden foodstuffs to feed their children...even when certified organic. How on earth would they drive the reform of a far flung trade in 'organic tropicals?'

The locals have to grow into this for their own reasons. That is how things will change.
The issue is loaded w/ people of more scientific bent then a sociological one which explains the difficulty of getting the message thru to them.
The grants and the programs are more oriented to empiracists and more clinical thinkers.
This is a social problem...an economic problem... and the energy for solving it has been squandered in a scientifically oriented search for remedy thru unworkable strategies.

The leadership of late has come from the scientific tribes and they speak only their dialect and have as a result not enjoyed the breakthrus that were there to be had.
If MAC were in Rome...they would still do it their way and not as the Romans would do or accept.
Simple really.
Steve
 

mark@mac

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Hi all,

Once again, I would like to state for the record that I truly believe the concept of MAC is great; and, if implemented properly COULD achieve what we all want; I believe that is simply a sustainable supply of healthy, net caught MO.

Unfortunately this is not happening. Supply of MAC Certified fish is not going up to ANY useful degree, especially for the amount of $ being spent. If MAC Certified fish in Indo and the Philippines were sold at a price that would only return what they cost to produce, they would be more expensive than GOLD.

Money is being wasted in so many ways but the cost of the MAMTI Director and the MAC Director stand out –they ALONE will be paid a total of OVER $1,000,000 over the 5-year lifespan of MAMTI – high wages to be sure but even more appalling because they are both such utter failures at their jobs which makes them gallingly expensive at any price. THEY are directly responsible for the utter failings of MAMTI and TMAT, and should be held accountable.

Several weeks ago, I was handed petitions by the MAC Collectors of Camotes, Batasan and Clarin. ALL three groups were fed up and disgusted at the way they were being treated by MAC/MAMTI. They had tried to send a petition to the MAC Board previously but this had been ‘lost’ in the MAC Manila Office. I promised and did send the petitions to the Chairman of the MAC Board asking that he respond to the fishers and their concerns. He said that he would, but as far as I can tell nothing has happened yet. The Board of MAC is ultimately responsible for the continued and costly failings of MAMTI (& TMAT, etc.) – both financially and morally.

A few more cases to add to the MAC/MAMTI Incompetence Files:

1. MAC/MAMTI have been caught by the Palawan Council For Sustainable Development operating in Palawan, Philippines without the required Strategic Environmental Plan (SEP) Clearance. This is in violation of Section 1 of PCSD Admin Order 6 (SEP Clearance System) stipulating that any undertaking, project or program to be implemented in Palawan shall be covered by the SEP Clearance System. The PCSD has demanded immediate action otherwise they will file an administrative case against MAC. This will be yet another civil law suit against MAC.

2. For those talking about boxes of fish from MAC sources you should note that currently, there are ZERO MAC certified fish coming out of the Philippines and Indonesia. Why is this? This is because the sites that were certified are technically uncertified now as they have not received the required surveillance visit from the certifiers to renew their certification.

3. The cost of annual Reef Check surveys are so expensive that the fishers can’t afford them and MAC/MAMTI can’t afford to pay the certifier to undertake the regular surveillance visits required by the MAC Certification Standards because when the MAMTI project was written the MAMTI partners (MAC, REEF Check, and CCIF) forgot to allocate any money for the ongoing renewal of certifications of the collectors and the collection areas! If you all remember the exchanges I had with Gregor Hodgson of Reef Check on this forum, you will remember how evasive he was about the cost of maintaining the Reef Check component of the MAC Certification process. He neither answered directly how much it would cost, on average, to renew the Reef Check component of MAC Certification, nor did he respond when it was pointed out to him that they forgot to budget the years following up the initial certification. MAC is not alone in its duplicity – it’s other partners in MAMTI – CCIF and Reef Check are directly responsible as well. (I’d like to know for one, what kind of required matching money (or private sector investment) they have raised so far for this project?).

4. My fisher friends in Clarin also tell me that fishers from a new area that MAC is training in Bohol are now poaching and using cyanide in their collection area. These new fisher groups were scheduled to be “certified” sometime this month.

My big questions are

“Where is the MAC Board?” What are they doing to resolve these issues?

Where are the donors?” Why are they allowing their money (our tax money in some cases) to be wasted so blatantly?

Why isn’t the trade angrier than it is? How can we best organize to tackle some of these issues head on?

The trade is supposed to be MAC’s partner in its reform. Anyone here feel like a partner?
 

clarionreef

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Mark..!
Muad' Dib!*
Wow!
He wrote;
"... if 615 boxes is but a drop in the bucket, what is just 15 boxes????? a mere fraction of a drop????

Mitch replies;
It is 1/41 of a drop. Exactly.

Mitch...
I beg to differ.
The fact that I was way off base about my generous estimate of MAC generating 15 boxes a week.... Off by 15 apparently.
I stand corrected.
Your 1/41 of a drop calculation will likewise have to be redone.
Steve
PS. *
Obscure reference to Frank Herberts Dune hero and his awakening...
 
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cortez marine":1e5uben0 said:
PS. *
Obscure reference to Frank Herberts Dune hero and his awakening...


...the sleeper must awaken...

Just so you know someone caught the reference Steve ;)
 

clarionreef

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Marks dramatic and revelatory post was met w/ silence from the usual apologists for the million dollar eco incs.
Ignoring and avoiding inconvenient truths such as this is intellectually dishonest .
Futhermore it suggests a tribal type, my NGO right or wrong response inclination other then an open and independant one.

I understand this thinking. I'm a Raider fan... against all reason myself.
Steve
 
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mark@mac":3kxkjn7z said:
Hi all,

Once again, I would like to state for the record that I truly believe the concept of MAC is great; and, if implemented properly COULD achieve what we all want; I believe that is simply a sustainable supply of healthy, net caught MO.

Unfortunately this is not happening. Supply of MAC Certified fish is not going up to ANY useful degree, especially for the amount of $ being spent. If MAC Certified fish in Indo and the Philippines were sold at a price that would only return what they cost to produce, they would be more expensive than GOLD.

Money is being wasted in so many ways but the cost of the MAMTI Director and the MAC Director stand out –they ALONE will be paid a total of OVER $1,000,000 over the 5-year lifespan of MAMTI – high wages to be sure but even more appalling because they are both such utter failures at their jobs which makes them gallingly expensive at any price. THEY are directly responsible for the utter failings of MAMTI and TMAT, and should be held accountable.

Several weeks ago, I was handed petitions by the MAC Collectors of Camotes, Batasan and Clarin. ALL three groups were fed up and disgusted at the way they were being treated by MAC/MAMTI. They had tried to send a petition to the MAC Board previously but this had been ‘lost’ in the MAC Manila Office. I promised and did send the petitions to the Chairman of the MAC Board asking that he respond to the fishers and their concerns. He said that he would, but as far as I can tell nothing has happened yet. The Board of MAC is ultimately responsible for the continued and costly failings of MAMTI (& TMAT, etc.) – both financially and morally.

A few more cases to add to the MAC/MAMTI Incompetence Files:

1. MAC/MAMTI have been caught by the Palawan Council For Sustainable Development operating in Palawan, Philippines without the required Strategic Environmental Plan (SEP) Clearance. This is in violation of Section 1 of PCSD Admin Order 6 (SEP Clearance System) stipulating that any undertaking, project or program to be implemented in Palawan shall be covered by the SEP Clearance System. The PCSD has demanded immediate action otherwise they will file an administrative case against MAC. This will be yet another civil law suit against MAC.

2. For those talking about boxes of fish from MAC sources you should note that currently, there are ZERO MAC certified fish coming out of the Philippines and Indonesia. Why is this? This is because the sites that were certified are technically uncertified now as they have not received the required surveillance visit from the certifiers to renew their certification.

3. The cost of annual Reef Check surveys are so expensive that the fishers can’t afford them and MAC/MAMTI can’t afford to pay the certifier to undertake the regular surveillance visits required by the MAC Certification Standards because when the MAMTI project was written the MAMTI partners (MAC, REEF Check, and CCIF) forgot to allocate any money for the ongoing renewal of certifications of the collectors and the collection areas! If you all remember the exchanges I had with Gregor Hodgson of Reef Check on this forum, you will remember how evasive he was about the cost of maintaining the Reef Check component of the MAC Certification process. He neither answered directly how much it would cost, on average, to renew the Reef Check component of MAC Certification, nor did he respond when it was pointed out to him that they forgot to budget the years following up the initial certification. MAC is not alone in its duplicity – it’s other partners in MAMTI – CCIF and Reef Check are directly responsible as well. (I’d like to know for one, what kind of required matching money (or private sector investment) they have raised so far for this project?).

4. My fisher friends in Clarin also tell me that fishers from a new area that MAC is training in Bohol are now poaching and using cyanide in their collection area. These new fisher groups were scheduled to be “certified” sometime this month.

My big questions are

“Where is the MAC Board?” What are they doing to resolve these issues?

Where are the donors?” Why are they allowing their money (our tax money in some cases) to be wasted so blatantly?

Why isn’t the trade angrier than it is? How can we best organize to tackle some of these issues head on?

The trade is supposed to be MAC’s partner in its reform. Anyone here feel like a partner?


i'd like to ask BOTH peter rubec and our grand champion naesco what they think the uscrtf thinks and is rapidly and swiftly doing about this to ensure that all of the above mentioned parties make damn sure that they "govern themselves accordingly" :lol: :P ;)


cdt and certification for same = just another false feely goodly bandaid, my friends
 
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a question for mark- isn't mac in 'cahoots' so to speak with the uscrtf, at least partly by association ?
 

mark@mac

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Vitz wrote:
a question for mark- isn't mac in 'cahoots' so to speak with the uscrtf, at least partly by association ?

Vitz,

I don't feel MAC is "in cahoots" with the USCRTF. I do know that the USCRTF really hopes MAC can be successful because they know that "enforcement" from "this side of the pond" is practically impossible. In fact, some of them have told me personally that they truely hope the industry can resolve these issues itself, so the government doesn't have to worry about it so much...

I feel that if MAC were even a little more successful than it is, they would be "golden" in the eyes of the USCRTF; reality, however is beginning to set in I think....
 
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Is there any opening for MAC to swoop in and take credit for the changes, though?
 

clarionreef

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Mark wrote;
I feel that if MAC were even a little more successful than it is, they would be "golden" in the eyes of the USCRTF;

Wow...how the standards have fallen.
When I granted MAC a liberal 15 boxes a week in output after 10 million dollars and 9 years of effort, you corrected me with the news that the figure is closer to zero.
So...a little more successful then zero might do the trick you think, huh?

The USCRTF must also have standards of performance set very low as does MACs partners at the WWF, TNC, MAMTI, et al.
How do any justify the zero output w/ a straight face?
How do you go to work everyday knowing you will end the day with no output?
How do you even pick up a paycheck w/ any dignity?
How do you evaluate others if you youself would fail any evaluation by peers?
How could you think that you will not also be monitored, evaluated, measured, surveyed, summarized, analyzed and judged??
Where is the principle of command responsibility in evidence? Accountability?

In sports, the coach gets the axe if the team fails to make the playoffs.
This coach has failed to engineer anything on the scoreboard...[and being a Raider fan, I know...I know.]

Steve

_________________
 

mark@mac

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SciGuy2 wrote:
Is there any opening for MAC to swoop in and take credit for the changes, though?

Well, for one thing, MAC Indonesia is making some great changes in that country, and they do deserve the credit. I have seen this myself, and it is now being reported by Colin. There has been some success in the Philippines as well; however, only with regard to raising awareness to non-destructive fishing practices and resource management; not actually producing certified fish. Some of these failed efforts have resulted in MAJOR loss of respect from some communities, by building hopes up and not following through.

Lee, unfortunately I think it's more likely they will say something like, "Hey, we're trying our best, but the INDUSTRY won't work with us!"

:roll:
 

clarionreef

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Mark,
I would point out that we are producing more netcaught fish this month with Pre-MAC Filipinos from Zambales and Bolinao in Tonga alone then MAC has in their entire lifetime.

Caring people in the commercial sector are now making exciting progress and gaining steam...month by month....but MAC just can't/won't contribute anything to the catch totals..
No one in the industry is stopping MAC from getting netting, hiring good trainers and producing good fish properly. No one.
Only they are doing this to themselves. Only they.
This is a strong talking point for the USCRTF when the time comes.
Steve
 

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