Who needs wholesalers/LFS/etailers, let's do a group buy

[Piero]

Beyond uneducated walk-ins, hardware emergencies and maintenance accounts, I'd seriously question the sustainable competitive advantages of B&M retail in this trade moving forward. An online cart my not answer your questions, but there are ample sources of advice and information on the web where you can get your questions answered by people who do not have a vested interest in profit.

I'm not saying you're not a good source of hobby advice...I'm just saying that the internet essentially replaces that 'customer service' advantage that a stores claim is a sustainable competitive advantage.

In 2007 a retail business selling MOs without an ecommerce presence seems like a boat with a big hole in it, imo. As video becomes more ubiquitous and resolutions become high-def, every online customer will feel like they are in the stores.
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grand daddy purple seeds

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Jenn!

I am glad that you feel that as long as they are abiding by the rules they can sell to whomever they like. Some may not like it, but they can choose, as you have, to not shop there. I would guess if it really hurt the bottom line, it wouldn't happen, but its seems not to be so.

I don't see a problem with a wholesaler choosing to not sell to to someone because they are undercutting others prices because it seems like the same argument some have regarding wholesalers drop shipping.

Is one DS customer worth losing 2 or three walk in customers? Quite possibly yes. Some of the walk ins at wholesale I have seen make retail deal seekers look generous. So, losing customers who take up time and resources and try to talk down every-thing's price may be just fine to lose.

I like LFS and do everything I can to support them. At the same time, I think the world is changing and the days of small LFS on every street corner are coming to an end. I think Piero is right and that a very good LFS can only get better by having a net presence, and that instead of a bunch of small LFS that are mediocre, we will get fewer but better stores.

Personally, though I reserve the right to change my mind, I think it would be good if the industry paradigm would change. I think animals shouldn't be a volume business and that they should cost more. I think the push to make animal husbandry more inexpensive only leads to problems like the Hog Isle Boa and the galaxy rasbora. Some of the best fish I ever got came straight from the collector - Twilight Aquatics, and I was happy to pay more for animals that were treated well and that didn't have to run the gauntlet of collector/exporter/importer/wholsale/LFS.

Fun, nice discussion.

 

[JennM]

This thread really should be split as the original question is in the distant past... IMO.

I really wasn't referring to "walk in customers" to wholesalers, but rather, retail customers wherever they may be. If a customer in another state feels the way I do (such as SWSaltwater expressed his opinion), and he takes his business elsewhere (not speaking for him, just using a hypothetical), is it worth it to SDC or "Wholesaler X" to do the dropship thing if it costs them some regular business? I'd think that the volume an average dropshipper does, combined with the extra work, may not be *worth* it to a wholesaler to piss off their customers who order volume ever week. I don't know - I'm not a wholesaler - but just from my experience, I'd think it would make sense to keep *most* of the customers happy, not cater to just one or two at the risk of alienating the broader base.

As for online shopping, internet advice and such, Piero, respectfully, I think you live in a bubble. Not meant to sound like a flame - but just because *you* avail yourself of online resources, doesn't mean the majority do. While online communties and the etail customer base is growing, I still maintain that the vast *majority* of people still shop the brick and mortar. Quite a few either don't know or can't be bothered to look online (and for what it's worth, I do refer people to online sources of information that I find to be noob-friendly and reliable). There are also plenty that use online sources for info to complement their LFS experience, but they still *prefer* to see it before they buy it, particularly when it comes to livestock.

A Maxijet powerhead is a Maxijet powerhead, whether it's bought on eBay, on an etailer website or in a LFS. I certainly don't begrudge somebody for saving a dollar - and yes there are careful shoppers that will skin a fart to save half a cent, but there are still plenty of people who want it *today*, not via Priority Mail or whatever, in order to have the convenience.

If people weren't about convenience, we wouldn't have convenience stores - why else will people pay $1 more for a gallon of milk or whatever, at a convenience store, versus going to a regular grocery store? CONVENIENCE. By the same comparison, lots of people still prefer one-to-one service and convenience, to price-shopping on the Internet.

While it's true that a segment of the LFS shopping population is influenced by online info and sales, there are still plenty of customers for the traditional store.

Jenn

 

[Piero]

I may indeed live in a bubble, as you put it Jenn, but I get the feeling it's a growing bubble. I think evidence suggests the B&M bubble is shrinking in response. The B&M bubble may still be here in 3-5-10 years, but I think it will be more of a micro-bubble[insert skimmer reference here].

Maintenance and commercial accounts still sound promising though. I'm sure most store owners prefer commercial accounts to customers already for several reasons.
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Kissing Advice Forum

 

[JennM]

Piero, is it your contention that B&M stores will eventually disappear completely? If so, I think you're a bit misguided.

How many etailers sell tanks? And I don't mean the nano-type tanks - but tanks over 10 gallons? How about tanks over 55 gallons? Or over 100 gallons? If you can name any, I'd be interested to hear who they are.

And without tanks, where will hobbyists put their fish and corals and inverts?

And who sets up those tanks if the hobbyist is not a DIY type?

And while we're selling the tanks, we sell the filters, skimmers, live rock, live sand, lights etc.

While I don't always find myself in agreement with Kalk, he's right - the LFS is the cornerstone of the industry - we get people started, and I maintain that for the most part, we *keep* people in the hobby also. A good store earns the business of its customers - a bad one will prompt the hobbyist to either leave the hobby, or go elsewhere - whether that be another LFS, or the Internet (or both).

The industry survived long before etail, through brick and mortar stores, but can the etail segment of MO survive without retail? Methinks not.

As long as etailers aren't able to sell big tanks, custom tanks, do installations, maintenance and hold a hobbyist's hand through the process, there is plenty of room for the B&M in this day and age.

I'm not denying there has been a change in the dynamic since etail came about, but I'm not as doom-and-gloom toward regular retailers as you seem to be. What I 'hear' from you is that most if not all LFS will vanish at some point in the next 10 years, and I'm here to tell you that's just not so.

I do think it will be a time of "culling" - because a segment of the population becomes more discriminating, but I still don't think it's as big a segment as you might think.

If etail was all that, retail as a whole, not just the MO industry, would be disappearing - and at the rate that stores are being built in this area anyway, I don't see anybody worried about losing all their business to the web.

Some people like to SHOP, period. No matter what they are buying, they enjoy the experience of going to a store, perusing the wares, touching, feeling, perhaps tasting samples if it's a food store - it's a tactile experience. Online is one-dimensional. Sure you can sit in your underwear at 3:00 AM and buy just about anything online these days, but there are still a whole lot of people who actually enjoy shopping (heh I'm not one of them!).

I don't know about LFS where you are, but in both major centers where I've lived, a trip to the LFS is more than just a shopping trip, it's a social activity - chat with your sales clerk or store owner who knows you, exchange ideas and information, meet up with other hobbyists and discuss your tank(s)... My shop can often be a hangout for people - and while there's plenty of interactive forums here for that, there's something about face-to-face contact that we humans thrive on.

Change with the times? Absolutely - but if you think that B&M stores of any description are at risk of going away completely, I think you're mistaken.

And BTW - commercial accounts or maintenance accounts are a regular source of cash flow, but they can be just as needy and/or problematic as walk-ins. It depends on the type of customer - some of the ones that just "look at the pretty fishes" are more trouble than they are worth at times, but there's a lot of value in offering service as a part of the LFS.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Why is it a LFS prerogative to sell their wares to whomever they like for whatever price they like, but not a wholesalers prerogative? It seems a little weird to say that LFS can do whatever they want, but that wholesalers need to do what LFS want. Perhaps I am missing your point.

Well, there's a difference between "wholesale" and "retail".
Jenn

my opinions (and knowledge ) on all of the other matters discussed here aside-there is really only ONE difference between the two, pure and simple- volume (both in amount of product, and number of customers: wholesalers simply sell more product to fewer customers AND retailers sell less product to a larger customer base, generally) -regardless of the industry you're talking about

 

[Piero]

No not completely Jenn, not at all. Sorry I thought i was clear. I'm not denying I'm an early-adopter either. But the B&M-only space seems to be shrinking for reasons I don't see changing. Progressive adaptation to a changing environment is important in any industry.
_________________
united states recessions

 

[dizzy]

In 2007 a retail business selling MOs without an ecommerce presence seems like a boat with a big hole in it, imo. As video becomes more ubiquitous and resolutions become high-def, every online customer will feel like they are in the stores.

Piero,
Do you actually think 3,000 stores trying to run ecommerce sites is going to work in this industry?
Mitch

 

[JennM]

In 2007 a retail business selling MOs without an ecommerce presence seems like a boat with a big hole in it, imo. As video becomes more ubiquitous and resolutions become high-def, every online customer will feel like they are in the stores.

Piero,
Do you actually think 3,000 stores trying to run ecommerce sites is going to work in this industry?
Mitch

Good point, Mitch - I never even thought about that. A lot of etailers have come and gone with the dot-com boom and bust too. Remember pets.com? Yeah there's some big ones out there that probably get a good chunk of the online business, but a glut of online retailers wouldn't get anybody too far ahead either...

Interesting perspective

Jenn

 

[nanocat]

Piero, is it your contention that B&M stores will eventually disappear completely? If so, I think you're a bit misguided.Jenn

That's ironic. Pot meet kettle.

Isn't that exactly what I've been reading all you B & M owners claim for the last 3 years :?:

"Don't support etail, it'll be the death of us"
"Don't support etail, [whine]it's not fairrrrrrr......"[/whine]
"Etail is badddd, it's not rightttt, it's the devillllll"

 

[JennM]

Nanocat, I don't follow.

I've never said that LFS will disappear - hell I own one - why would I be in a business I thought was going to go bust?

I've also never said there isn't a place for etail - but I stand by what I've said in this and other threads.

So where am I missing the "irony"?

Jenn

 

[Piero]

hehe, good point Mitch. Perhaps some consolidations are in order? But I want to be clear about not speakign in absolutes. I still think the B&M bubble will exist, I just think its in the midst of a shrinking/morphing phase.

After all the big corporations are thoroughly entrenched in the online livestock space the way they are in the dry goods pet space, then we'll see how things pan out. It's a scramble for niche-markets, eh?

Right now smaller B&M's are still getting part of the entry-level business. What happens if petco/petsmart fingure out how to do reefkeeping right? What happens if petco/petsmart decide to make an aggressive move on the commercial/maintenance space? In 3-5 will the big boys absorb all the newbie-amateur marine ornamental business and smaller businesses will be relegated to the 'enthusiast' and 'pro' market exclusively? Will that still necessitate stores? Idunno.
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Whole life insurance Forum

 

[JennM]

Perhaps in 3-5 the big boys will absorb all the newbie-amateur marine ornamental business and smaller businesses will be relegated to the 'enthusiast' and 'pro' market exclusively?

Heh most of them haven't figured out how to do freshwater right yet. Like the lady who found me a week or so after buying a 55-g tank at Petsmart, along with 40 fish on the same day. When they started gasping and dying, she found a specialty retailer (me) to help her sort out the problem. I told her to take 35 of the fish back where she got them - and surprise - Petsmart wouldn't take them back.

There are big box pet retailers that have a good aquatics staff, but so far there's more that don't, than do. A franchise store near here used to have a fantastic aquatics manager, he knew his saltwater stuff - well he left to greener pastures, I think he's working for one of the big maintenance companies here now - and last I've heard, the aquatics department there sucks.

With the typical high turnover in staff at big box places, along with low pay, comes low knowledge as a rule. The kid scrubbing algae for minimum wage does not necessarily have the knowledge or the interest in taking a personal interest with their customer, whereas in the more intimate setting of a smaller local shop where the owner or manager is always around, they can get more personalized service. There's that word again - SERVICE

I can't even begin to tell you how many times somebody has come into my store, complaining that they bought fish at Walmart or Petsmart or Petco, only to experience a "wipe out" shortly afterward. Quality speaks for itself - or lack thereof.

Let the big boxes try to figure out freshwater first - then maybe I'll worry.

I don't see big boxes carrying specialty items either - only the mass-produced, cheap stuff. When they start carrying stuff for the advanced hobbyist, maybe I'll worry.

Then again, maybe I won't.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

It just occurred to me that we often lump all B&M's together with the idea that face to face give you better service. However, I think that a lot of B&M's give bad service and bad information. Good service will always gain some loyalty, but I think there are more so so LFS than anything I would consider good. So, I guess my question is does it benefit that industry to have LFS with poor service replaced by etailers? I think it just might - people order stuff, then go to the B&M for 'gimmie it now' stuff.

Another thing that is interesting to me as I continue in the hobby/industry is how I am now more willing to buy stuff online because trying to buy products at a LFS is often fruitless. Recently, I needed some mineral mud for an octoproject I am working on, and I know there just isn't a LFS that carries that product, so I got it online. Some goes for a lot of products like test kits, bulbs, skimmers, lighting in general, even limewood airstones - I could order it online and be done, or I could make a dozen phone calls and if I am lucky, drive 45 minutes to pick up the product. It is much more convenient to order the product online and have it arrive in a day or two than it is to try to track it down (and mostly not even be available locally).

 

[JennM]

It just occurred to me that we often lump all B&M's together with the idea that face to face give you better service. However, I think that a lot of B&M's give bad service and bad information. Good service will always gain some loyalty, but I think there are more so so LFS than anything I would consider good. So, I guess my question is does it benefit that industry to have LFS with poor service replaced by etailers? I think it just might - people order stuff, then go to the B&M for 'gimmie it now' stuff.

Another thing that is interesting to me as I continue in the hobby/industry is how I am now more willing to buy stuff online because trying to buy products at a LFS is often fruitless. Recently, I needed some mineral mud for an octoproject I am working on, and I know there just isn't a LFS that carries that product, so I got it online. Some goes for a lot of products like test kits, bulbs, skimmers, lighting in general, even limewood airstones - I could order it online and be done, or I could make a dozen phone calls and if I am lucky, drive 45 minutes to pick up the product. It is much more convenient to order the product online and have it arrive in a day or two than it is to try to track it down (and mostly not even be available locally).

The same can be said of so-so etailers. Unfilled orders, lost shipments, bad advice (from those who do offer advice)... there's good and bad everywhere. Hence my notion of "culling" ... the cream always rises to the top and the bottom-feeders are more likely to fall off as clients become more savvy. However it never ceases to amaze me that people will complain about their LFS but still shop there - sometimes under the premise of "rescuing" something :roll:

I've never been asked for anything I couldn't get - and I'm honest - if somebody can get something more cheaply online, I'll tell them. But if an etailer can get it, so can a LFS. Could be that the LFS you're dealing with can't be bothered - and that's their loss, and perhaps a bigger loss than they realize if you cut them out of the loop completely on future purchases too.

And as for the "gimme it now" stuff - how about the "I NEED it now" stuff? Pump failed? Can't wait 2 days to get a replacement impeller or new pump... unless you're savvy and wealthy enough to always have a spare one on hand - and that's what is going to be necessary if most LFS go the way of the dinosaur, as you suggest.

I think you are both over-estimating the amount of customers who are availing themselves of online shopping. I'd say that most know it's out there, but most still seem to shop in person.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

In 2007 a retail business selling MOs without an ecommerce presence seems like a boat with a big hole in it, imo. As video becomes more ubiquitous and resolutions become high-def, every online customer will feel like they are in the stores.

Piero,
Do you actually think 3,000 stores trying to run ecommerce sites is going to work in this industry?
Mitch

a: how many lfs's have been opening every year, and how many have been closing every year, for the past 50 years ?

b: welcome to the darwinian side of a free market-what will happen is absolutely NO different than what's been happening all along (see 'a')

c:how many e commerce sites open and shut down every year ? (see 'b')



dude-you're simply prejudiced against electronic commerce, for no really good valid reason-the venue does not determine the quality of the institution-the people behind running it and how it's run, does :idea:

 

[Anonymous]

The same can be said of so-so etailers. Unfilled orders, lost shipments, bad advice (from those who do offer advice)... there's good and bad everywhere. Hence my notion of "culling" ... the cream always rises to the top and the bottom-feeders are more likely to fall off as clients become more savvy. However it never ceases to amaze me that people will complain about their LFS but still shop there - sometimes under the premise of "rescuing" something :roll:

How does that relate to the idea of wholesalers selling to etailers being a bad thing?

I've never been asked for anything I couldn't get - and I'm honest - if somebody can get something more cheaply online, I'll tell them. But if an etailer can get it, so can a LFS. Could be that the LFS you're dealing with can't be bothered - and that's their loss, and perhaps a bigger loss than they realize if you cut them out of the loop completely on future purchases too.

Earlier you were speaking of LFS as being more convienient. However, in many cases, at least in in the Bay Area, it is more convenient to order on line. Much more convenient than having an LFS order it for me because I get to avoid any time lag from the day the LFS actually places the order or the day they receive it, I get to avoid the LFS not being able to get it or forgetting to order it (recently I wanted a lot of salt, after trying for several weeks to get it through a LFS who couldn't get it because their suppliers were out of it, I went online), and I don't have to make another trip to the store as when ordered the product gets shipped to my house. Its just a counter example to the idea that LFS are more convent shopping than online.
I don't see reason to have the LFS order something for me, when I can just do it myself and have it shipped to my door for faster service, more product availability, and often a cheaper price. For a lot of products is is much more convenient to order it myself.

And as for the "gimme it now" stuff - how about the "I NEED it now" stuff? Pump failed? Can't wait 2 days to get a replacement impeller or new pump... unless you're savvy and wealthy enough to always have a spare one on hand - and that's what is going to be necessary if most LFS go the way of the dinosaur, as you suggest.

That only works if the store happens to have the impeller I need in stock. Most of them don't, and if I wait for them to order it, I will be waiting longer than it arriving next day air. With regards to a decent selection of dry goods, LFS in this area have already gone the way of the dinosaur. Its even worse when you call the LFS and they tell you they have the part and you drive an hour to get it and they really didn't have the part in the first place.

BTW, I do have backup pumps and parts for any critical piece of equipment. This came from not being able to find a single replacement pump with 1.5 inch ins and outs anywhere within 2 hours of me one time I needed one.

I think you are both over-estimating the amount of customers who are availing themselves of online shopping. I'd say that most know it's out there, but most still seem to shop in person.

Then why is there all the fuss over online buying? It seems when the topic comes up in this forum, that online buying is portrayed as a threat to B&M's. Is it really a threat to B&M or am I confusing your posts with others?

 

[JennM]

Actually most of the fuss began in this thread most recently when Eric was outed as a drop shipper. The original thread had to do with an individual arranging a group buy direct from a diver (which, BTW seemed to result in a lot of mortality according to the feeback posted in a secondary thread that was linked.)

So, Thales, it appears that you only have crappy LFS in your area. That's a shame. However it doesn't mean that every LFS in the country is the same. If online shopping is your preferred method, so be it. I just don't see why a few here are so sure that the LFS is as good as extinct.

Somehow we shifted to the topic of ordering inanimate objects online - when the intent of the thread was to discuss the ordering of live animals online.

If you check the thread, you can also find me saying that a powerhead is a powerhead, whether it was bought on eBay, from an etailer or the LFS - if somebody wants to price shop, they can probably find a better price online - I don't begrudge people that. Plenty of dry goods sellers are drop-shippers, and while I don't have to like the practice, that's business, and it doesn't usually have a detrimental effect on the "stuff" or on the hobbyist.

What I DO have a problem with is entities or individuals *representing* themselves as sellers of live creatures, who lead people to believe that they house the animals themselves, when in actual fact they are drop-shipping. I also have a problem with wholesalers who engage in this practice. It's my feeling that this practice undermines the very stores that are the wholesalers' livelihood, and I don't think the practice is very good for the livestock either.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Actually most of the fuss began in this thread most recently when Eric was outed as a drop shipper. The original thread had to do with an individual arranging a group buy direct from a diver (which, BTW seemed to result in a lot of mortality according to the feeback posted in a secondary thread that was linked.)

Part of the wonderfulness of bb discussions, 'specially on RDO is they can wander a little. Its one of the ways useful, interesting and different topics get discussed.
And I think group buys for animals are a bad idea.

So, Thales, it appears that you only have crappy LFS in your area.
That's a shame. However it doesn't mean that every LFS in the country is the same.

I think that was kind of my point to you. There are good and there are bad, and we do ourselves a disservice to thing of them as homogenous.

We actually have a bunch of great LFS, they just aren't so hot in covering the breath and width of reef products (realistically, how many different brands of 400 watt MH bubls will a store actually stock, or how many 1.5 inch pumps?). I think most LFS aren't so hot in carrying one of every product out there in case someone wants it.

If online shopping is your preferred method, so be it. I just don't see why a few here are so sure that the LFS is as good as extinct.

I never said that, and the other person you said that about said that wasn't at all what they meant.
I think it might be a good thing to see a shrinking of the LFS market. Less stores killing less animals in an effort to get on a perceived gravy train. I would much rather there be 2 really good, well stock stores in my area instead of 12+ smaller ones.

Somehow we shifted to the topic of ordering inanimate objects online - when the intent of the thread was to discuss the ordering of live animals online.

Yep. We were speaking to the general idea of LFS being more convenient than online, and I don't think that is necessarily the case.

If you check the thread, you can also find me saying that a powerhead is a powerhead, whether it was bought on eBay, from an etailer or the LFS - if somebody wants to price shop, they can probably find a better price online - I don't begrudge people that. Plenty of dry goods sellers are drop-shippers, and while I don't have to like the practice, that's business, and it doesn't usually have a detrimental effect on the "stuff" or on the hobbyist.

Do you not order from companies that drop ship drygoods like you don't order from companies that drop ship livestock?
I was speaking to the point of LFS being more convenient, and I don't think one can say that they really are in terms of livestock or drygoods.

What I DO have a problem with is entities or individuals *representing* themselves as sellers of live creatures, who lead people to believe that they house the animals themselves, when in actual fact they are drop-shipping. I also have a problem with wholesalers who engage in this practice. It's my feeling that this practice undermines the very stores that are the wholesalers' livelihood, and I don't think the practice is very good for the livestock either.

Jenn

I agree. Misrepresentation is an offfputting thing.

I am not sure how it is worse for the livestock than the additional travel times and one or two retankings that it takes to get livestock to LFS.

I am a little confused. In your last post you were saying that you think most people don't shop online, that most shop in person, so I am not sure how the practice undermines stores.

 

[dizzy]

dude-you're simply prejudiced against electronic commerce, for no really good valid reason-the venue does not determine the quality of the institution-the people behind running it and how it's run, does :idea:

Look dude this stuff works best when not everyone is trying to play at it. Too many stores in one area is usually bad for all of them. I've seen it happen in several places around here at different times. What it generally does is force margins down to the point profitabiltiy is lost and then some go out. What would the average fly over territory retail store really have to add to the etail game? More and better variety or cheaper prices? In most cases I say probably neither. The really successful stores around here in places like Nashville and Louisville aren't ecommersing. I think they realize it is better to take care of their walkin customers than trying to compete with the F&S and Marine Depots of the world.

PS
I think you've been in LA La Land so long you've lost touch with the Heartland. If indeed you ever were in touch in the first place.
Mitch