clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
[a] First priority is a training vehicle
2 lb barrier net is the most needed by far;
This fact was missed...and not understood at the point of the fund.
But only 1/6th inch hand net and the
1/4 inch handnetting material handnetting was sent...only handnetting.
How it was to be distributed, if at all was not determined from the donars.
It was to be given to divers upon completion of genuine training.
If there is no genuine training anymore...there is no one to distribute it to.
Netting...with no training; What was the point there?
The MAC trainings are not genuine as they are perpetrated by incompetent people just putting on a show. Their record of year after year of non conversions and no fish supply are glaring proof of this.
The record of disgruntled fisherman and fishermen who have left them is a long story...one not covered in the quarterly reports.
If this were not true....then there would be a certified netcaught fish supply. Since there is not...what do you think has happened all these years?
If ever an independant field audit is conducted by people who know fish and fish collecting...there could be a serious expose.
2 lb barrier net is the most needed by far;
This fact was missed...and not understood at the point of the fund.
But only 1/6th inch hand net and the
1/4 inch handnetting material handnetting was sent...only handnetting.
How it was to be distributed, if at all was not determined from the donars.
It was to be given to divers upon completion of genuine training.
If there is no genuine training anymore...there is no one to distribute it to.
Netting...with no training; What was the point there?
The MAC trainings are not genuine as they are perpetrated by incompetent people just putting on a show. Their record of year after year of non conversions and no fish supply are glaring proof of this.
The record of disgruntled fisherman and fishermen who have left them is a long story...one not covered in the quarterly reports.
If this were not true....then there would be a certified netcaught fish supply. Since there is not...what do you think has happened all these years?
If ever an independant field audit is conducted by people who know fish and fish collecting...there could be a serious expose.
Steve,
I'm not sure I agree with the impression that good netting in the hands of collectors who haven't trained formally under Ferdie, is worse than leaving those same people with the crappy netting they are already littering the shores with scraps of.
I mean, if you're talking about using the netting as a come-on for collectors to come in and train, hey sure. But if they aren't showing up, or more to the point, there is no where to show up at)... is holding onto it really the best route?
Just asking.
Mike,
The problem with gauging diver sentiment towards ANY putative type of netting is in discerning between part-time collectors and those who do collection as their main line of work.
If I had to guess how many of the former there are (working both foodfish and ornamental ends of the gig) the number would be anywhere from 12-20k. True ornamentals collectors, trained or not, might be 1k to 2k only.
The "pros" and the part-timers can often find themselves working together in the same outfit. Their attitudes towards the work are different, and while I'll allow that no two individuals will have identical feelings on everything, the knowledge of what works well and what works even better ought to be pretty much common.
I'm not sure I agree with the impression that good netting in the hands of collectors who haven't trained formally under Ferdie, is worse than leaving those same people with the crappy netting they are already littering the shores with scraps of.
I mean, if you're talking about using the netting as a come-on for collectors to come in and train, hey sure. But if they aren't showing up, or more to the point, there is no where to show up at)... is holding onto it really the best route?
Just asking.
Mike,
The problem with gauging diver sentiment towards ANY putative type of netting is in discerning between part-time collectors and those who do collection as their main line of work.
If I had to guess how many of the former there are (working both foodfish and ornamental ends of the gig) the number would be anywhere from 12-20k. True ornamentals collectors, trained or not, might be 1k to 2k only.
The "pros" and the part-timers can often find themselves working together in the same outfit. Their attitudes towards the work are different, and while I'll allow that no two individuals will have identical feelings on everything, the knowledge of what works well and what works even better ought to be pretty much common.
Horge
Am I right in assuming that you are in agreement that the barrier net and sizing recommended by Steve in what is needed?
How much netting is needed?
Am I correct that all the fishers in all the fishing locations in the Philippines would need it?
If formal training is not available anytime soon, who (the distributor) would best distribute it? Someone hired by donors, an existing NGO in the Philippines?
If formal training is not available anytime soon, can the distibutor not dive in with the fishers and do a 'quicky train' give them the netting and move on to the next location?
Thank you
Wayne
Am I right in assuming that you are in agreement that the barrier net and sizing recommended by Steve in what is needed?
How much netting is needed?
Am I correct that all the fishers in all the fishing locations in the Philippines would need it?
If formal training is not available anytime soon, who (the distributor) would best distribute it? Someone hired by donors, an existing NGO in the Philippines?
If formal training is not available anytime soon, can the distibutor not dive in with the fishers and do a 'quicky train' give them the netting and move on to the next location?
Thank you
Wayne
horge":397zqmm0 said:
My feelings exactly. I hate the "let them eat cake" attitude towards the netting. It's there, and they need some, why not give them some? I wasn't pitching it for MACs camp/training per say, I was saying give it to the divers who are asking for it. Forget the fact they collect for MAC outfits, after all, they're still human and are not using cyanide. From others attitudes on this, you'd think the Borg took the MAC divers over and their not worthy of even getting spit on
NGO's and trainers don't save the reef, the divers do They were there first, and they be there when all the NGOs go home!The longer it sits, the more brittle it gets. The brittler it gets, the worse it gets. Time kills monofilament, as cyanide does to the reef. Holding on it it, is like keeping milk in the fridge door. It'll work, but only for so long.
naesco":2lopcxhg said:
I am in agreement that the netting gauges and weights fall within the range most suitable for use by the greatest number of collectors for a fairly catholic selection of ornamentals, with durability clearly in mind.
If that sounds too dry an assent, then here:
Steve knows more about collecting's quirks and tricks than anyone here.
What type of netting are you rteferring to?
For collecting ops or for training as well?
Training predicates a quantity for the 'enroless', but attrition in the ranks of a given batch of trainess as they work the field is expected.
All the fishers? Clarify what you mean by that.
Need? Clarify what you mean by that: for comm'l collection or for training?
If the latter then yes. If the former, then no ---it is a question of making do, although there's no question as to how the better materiel makes collection more profitable (time/money) for the collector: bottom line is what induces trained collectors to stay the course, neh?
Unfortunately, that's a matter that the PTFEA would have considerable influence on. It's not like they all give the bloody netting for free to their collectors ---Quite a few (ahem) SELL all gear to their collectors, deducting the price from the payment for the catch.
The online reeftanking community is to be lauded for the netting fund and its result. It's however but one key component. Getting a good trainor to train collectors is another indispensable part, so maybe you should entice folks like Steve (or their qualified assigns) to do run more local training and re-training programs. You don't even need (nor want, actually) to get BFAR on board --just let economics and demonstrable increase in bottom line and decrease in mortalities do the talking. If the trainor has a local commercial presence, or at least has local outfits that he favors, he should get top three dibs on trained manpower, to hire/get hired (if the trainor so chooses).
China just signed a peacable agreement with the Philippines on exploitation of marine resources in the disputed Spratly Islands. I've only secondhand reports on the quality of collectibles there ---but we're talking trophy specimens in unbelievable quantity. The fish are still stupid as hell, too. The political positioning and scrambling across several economic sectors for (finally!) LEGAL exploitation of the area is both comical and depressing.
Materiel and Training... that leaves the Market.
Of course, it wouldn't hurt if American reefkeepers actually cared about netcaught.
***
Now if you don't mind my asking a question in turn:
I note that this is all of so much interest to you, Wayne.
Are you an interested hobbyist, perhaps?
----------------------
Gresh,
There are a number of fairly competent divers already in employ at several outfits. I just cannot see the harm in giving those people some decent netting... it is not like those outfits are going out of business if they are denied the materiel. They'll just keep doing what they do worst.
UV degradation of the monofilament isn't so much an issue if the stuff isn't out in the sun, ditto affiliated damage via biogenic ozone. Yes the stuff will deteriorate over time, but that's secondary an issue compared to the principle of hurtfully-untapped resources towards reducing the impact that ornamentals collection has on the environment.
-h
There are excellent trainors in the Philippines, many ot them learnt the quirks and tricks of this profession long time ago. There are Filipino trainors that have been traveling and training other collectors in different countries where this commercial activity is taking place.
What Filipino fish collectors need is a response from the marine aquarium industry to help with the supply of nets and better prices for the fishes collected with friendly methods.
The situation in the Philippines is much better that it was 15 years ago. Dealers getting fish from the Philippines are the ones who can say if the situatinon has improved.
What Filipino fish collectors need is a response from the marine aquarium industry to help with the supply of nets and better prices for the fishes collected with friendly methods.
The situation in the Philippines is much better that it was 15 years ago. Dealers getting fish from the Philippines are the ones who can say if the situatinon has improved.
The poor response from the marine aquarium industry to the call made by Steve Robinson while leader of AMDA was not a good sign . Robinson can know many things about collection and this trade, but his approach and lack of tact have been detrimental to this cause. It is a shame!
No doubt that in the Philippines is possible to find many good trainors. Meme Purgatorio, Noel Abudah and more are there.
No doubt that in the Philippines is possible to find many good trainors. Meme Purgatorio, Noel Abudah and more are there.
Horge
Thank you for the answers to my questions. I am a concerned hobbyist.
It seems a shame that netting is sitting in a warehouse instead of in the hands of collectors. In saying this I mean no ill will towards those who led and assisted in the efforts to buy and ship the netting under the previous hobbyist funding.
It seems a shame that the netting that is needed is not being provided.
So let us say that the proper netting which Steve has advised is available.
How do we get it quickly to those that can use it for our industry once it arrives at the Philippines?
Obviously a full blown training programme is ideal but in the short term can the distributor of the netting provide a quick lesson or two as he drops off the netting to the fishers?
Thank you for the answers to my questions. I am a concerned hobbyist.
It seems a shame that netting is sitting in a warehouse instead of in the hands of collectors. In saying this I mean no ill will towards those who led and assisted in the efforts to buy and ship the netting under the previous hobbyist funding.
It seems a shame that the netting that is needed is not being provided.
So let us say that the proper netting which Steve has advised is available.
How do we get it quickly to those that can use it for our industry once it arrives at the Philippines?
Obviously a full blown training programme is ideal but in the short term can the distributor of the netting provide a quick lesson or two as he drops off the netting to the fishers?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Wayne wrote;
"Obviously a full blown training programme is ideal "....
That, dear Wayne has been funded a half dozen times...and the subject of much defensiveness and rancor.
That is however, the clear and obvious pre-requisite for success rather then the willy-nilly handing out of the handnetting which is the secondary netting. To insure that it will be used right...and actually used, a real, commercial training project is needed.
Poor training by non qualified groups and poor netting have gone hand in hand for a very long time now as collecting industry people have been kept out of the loop. True it is...that the money was raised by non industry people....so its their ball.
Because its their ball, they play with their own cohorts to insure control and fidelity to the administrative food chain.
Ever been in business? Thats all it is.
Unlike business however, results only have to be "claimed" and claimed results together with good accounting and a balanced budget for funds liquidated....may keep you in business for years.
When the lack of results finally catch up to you and become so glaring that even a Packard Foundation egg head can see it....the funding stream quietly shifts to another outfit and the fake results-good accounting cycle begins all over again.
Meanwhile, reefs die and the trade gets blamed for its....how do they say it now..."Lack of governance".
This lack must be equally shared by both sectors I believe.
The Philippine government on the other hand should make all this obsolete by simply doing their own work.
Steve
"Obviously a full blown training programme is ideal "....
That, dear Wayne has been funded a half dozen times...and the subject of much defensiveness and rancor.
That is however, the clear and obvious pre-requisite for success rather then the willy-nilly handing out of the handnetting which is the secondary netting. To insure that it will be used right...and actually used, a real, commercial training project is needed.
Poor training by non qualified groups and poor netting have gone hand in hand for a very long time now as collecting industry people have been kept out of the loop. True it is...that the money was raised by non industry people....so its their ball.
Because its their ball, they play with their own cohorts to insure control and fidelity to the administrative food chain.
Ever been in business? Thats all it is.
Unlike business however, results only have to be "claimed" and claimed results together with good accounting and a balanced budget for funds liquidated....may keep you in business for years.
When the lack of results finally catch up to you and become so glaring that even a Packard Foundation egg head can see it....the funding stream quietly shifts to another outfit and the fake results-good accounting cycle begins all over again.
Meanwhile, reefs die and the trade gets blamed for its....how do they say it now..."Lack of governance".
This lack must be equally shared by both sectors I believe.
The Philippine government on the other hand should make all this obsolete by simply doing their own work.
Steve
"Obviously a full blown training programme is ideal "....
That, dear Wayne has been funded a half dozen times...and the subject of much defensiveness and rancor.
So, Steve what I am proposing is as follows. I realize it is not the ideal solution but it is an inexpensive quick attempt to deal with the netting problem and identify and priorize training rather than merely talking about it.
1. The proper netting be purchased and distributed to all ornamental collectors immediately (I understand there are approx. 1,500. (30 days)
(Remove all hobbyist donated hand netting sitting in the warehouse and get it in the hands of the collectors)
2. The distributor do a day or so training and priorize the proper training based on interest in net training and other criteria important to the sustainability of the reef and the fishers. (6 months)
3. Assess the benefits of 1 and 2 and decide what programme provides quick and inexpensive training.
4. Hire professional trainers (pay them well and make them accountable) and audit their results monthly with follow up.
Respectfully submitted.
And I have a question.
If netting were free to the collector and readily available, why would they want to go to the expense of purchasing cyanide?
That, dear Wayne has been funded a half dozen times...and the subject of much defensiveness and rancor.
So, Steve what I am proposing is as follows. I realize it is not the ideal solution but it is an inexpensive quick attempt to deal with the netting problem and identify and priorize training rather than merely talking about it.
1. The proper netting be purchased and distributed to all ornamental collectors immediately (I understand there are approx. 1,500. (30 days)
(Remove all hobbyist donated hand netting sitting in the warehouse and get it in the hands of the collectors)
2. The distributor do a day or so training and priorize the proper training based on interest in net training and other criteria important to the sustainability of the reef and the fishers. (6 months)
3. Assess the benefits of 1 and 2 and decide what programme provides quick and inexpensive training.
4. Hire professional trainers (pay them well and make them accountable) and audit their results monthly with follow up.
Respectfully submitted.
And I have a question.
If netting were free to the collector and readily available, why would they want to go to the expense of purchasing cyanide?
Sure, it's a little button on the top of the forum with an icon of a magnifing glass and the words "search" just to the right of it
Honestly, if you haven't retained it yet, there's nothing else we can do for you. The specs have been posted countless times, as have the rest of the critical info you seek. You could search Steve's posting history, if you want to narrow the search down a bit.
Honestly, if you haven't retained it yet, there's nothing else we can do for you. The specs have been posted countless times, as have the rest of the critical info you seek. You could search Steve's posting history, if you want to narrow the search down a bit.
naesco":2ecuigda said:
Been busy for a while and haven't been following this thread...
Let us say for a moment that the netting is to be freely distributed to any and all takers.
I posit that the entire lot would be gone in a matter of weeks.
I also posit that much less than 1% would go for the intended purpose: Handnetting for ornamental fish collectors.
If you have ever visited a fishing village, you would soon notice the housing.
Nearly every house is made of woven Nipa fronds and bamboo. The roof is thatched, and is leaky and easily damaged from the wind.
It does not take a rocket scientist (or even a Canadian lawyer) to quickly realize that covering a thatched roof with some nice thick poly netting would really help in keeping that roof down in the wind.
One house worth of netting would supply an entire village's fishermen with enough hand netting for several years.
The netting would disappear in the form of weirs, fish cages/traps, roof coverings, etc.
Is that what any of you guys want to see happen?
Ferdinand updates me from time to time about the netting. It is getting distributed as intended, a few meters at a time to various fishermen. He and they are very thankful for it. He doesn't tend to publicize it as there is really little reason to. He reads this board very rarely, mostly because he doesn't really care for the drama and the posing.
I have offered before to make sure that netting got to anyone who really needed it, whether from the Net Fund source or otherwise. So far, no one has taken me up on that offer. I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Chicken coops,
You forgot to mention chicken coops.
Steve
You forgot to mention chicken coops.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
The history of "teaching "collectors anything thru out the years and with the river of cash has been done with cheap...substitute lightweight netting material [ to save a small amount of money ] and has ruined much of what could've been useful trainings.
This pushed many collectors back to using poison.
The NGOs often mentioned are all guilty of this 1/2 assed approach to social development in rural fishing villages.
Cheerleading past successes...real or imagined seems strange as it suggests that the job was actually done.
If thats the case, then we can all go home now &...
If thats the case, will the last wannbie eco-poser left on RDO, please turn out the lights?
Steve
PS.
To the divers, the need for the right netting has long been the primary issue.
To the city based NGOs, just a little thing to minimize and save more money for office supplies and personal per diems.
This pushed many collectors back to using poison.
The NGOs often mentioned are all guilty of this 1/2 assed approach to social development in rural fishing villages.
Cheerleading past successes...real or imagined seems strange as it suggests that the job was actually done.
If thats the case, then we can all go home now &...
If thats the case, will the last wannbie eco-poser left on RDO, please turn out the lights?
Steve
PS.
To the divers, the need for the right netting has long been the primary issue.
To the city based NGOs, just a little thing to minimize and save more money for office supplies and personal per diems.
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