MAC Exporter has netting problems?

[clarionreef]

Almost there Mike,
[ and its not about us...]
If they want it so bad as to spend dozens and dozens of hours making it....
then clearly they wouldn't mind the 10 dollar cost of the good stuff over 5 for the bad.

For 250 fisheman that extra 5 bucks a head would add up to $1,250.
and it would have revolutionized things.
But poor MAC....a shoestring operation with only a few mil to work with...They've spent what... 6 million in 7 years and haven't hardly converted anyone.


Steve
PS.
And Mike, the Australian runner at the bottom helps not tear the bottom...but it only protects the bottom few inches. Any higher and its opaque-ness scares fish away.
Having introduced this in the early trainings...I know what its for and what its limitation is.

 

[clarionreef]

The following message is from Ferdinand Cruz,
AND GOT LOST IN LESSER DISCUSSION;

To the readers
There are several important reasons why I have not been a constant participant in the RDO for some time but now perhaps by citing a few I would be answering the hullabaloo of the netting thing.
More than a year ago after so many meetings with the country director of MAC Philippines I was asked to keep silent on so many of the hot issues to give them a chance to do the whole program the right way. This director even went as far as promising that to satisfy me he would see to it that in each of their trainings I would be asked to validate the authenticity and correctness to set my mind at peace. I was even asked to submit a proposal for training and methods of approaches and details for training in order that we can all do one training method.

Since the way it was offered sounded so sincere I agreed to everything except giving them a detailed method and approaches and I was very blunt in saying that ...

I cannot give any manual and details due to MAC’s predilection to take shortcuts and bastardize the trainings.

In that meeting I mentioned that they are welcome to the hand netting materials explaining that it needs a different technique but should be included as one of the important component of training. alIt is needed to catch certain species effectively that a barrier net cannot almost catch.

In that meeting I was told I will be contacted for some nets when there is a need. Now certain species that needs this different netting material are appearing in the supply chain that is being claimed as caught in volume by barrier nets. So who would presume that they did not have this kind of nets? I presumed of course that with all their mega bucks they would rather purchase these kinds of nets so as not to have anything to do with me ................because after submitting the proposal that came out after sever meetings to discuss it the gods of Hawaii came to visit us acting like cardinals from Rome left and never was heard from again.
Prior to submitting that proposal in that meeting again the country director and I discuss the problem of increasing the number of collectors by training more non-collectors. My stand on this then was that there were just over a thousand true existing suffering collectors then and at present and if you increase them with out a guarantee of a good viable income you have more candidates of future cyanide users. I just saw a very small almost imperceptible nod when I wanted this commitment.

We had to study supply on our own. Consider this issue. When IMA was still an active player in this field the collated data of volume of export and the volume of flow of ornamental fish to export facilities were collected every year. IMA monitored the land sea and air system of transport of ornamental fish. We knew where it was coming from and the volume that was being brought into Manila. (I doubt if somebody is doing this now to know what is really happening and this should be done.) The last record I had of this was in 1997. Up to that point there were still a lot of exporters and the big ones would be able to export approximately 2,000 to 3,000 boxes monthly. It was even higher before 1997. Now there are fewer exporters and the big ones are hard put in exporting a maximum of a thousand five hundred boxes a month. Exporters now send their buying agents to the field with money to corner supply and a lot of them come back empty handed or with trash and badly treated fishes. I know that the reason being claimed for this situation is that there are less ornamental fish collectors now but three weeks ago we went out to look for a certain species that we needed to get. We went to a place that was very well known to have it and for three days with three of us diving we were only able to get four pieces and the place had almost no fish at all.
We learn from the mistakes of MAC and will not dare do what they are dong. One incident; they trained in one area. They had to big shots of BFAR attending a closing ceremony of the training. Big party!!! When the graduating ceremony was about to begin somebody told them that collection was ban in that area by law. That was funny but what is not funny is that now that place is a heaven for corruption. Any group of collector can go there and use cyanide to their hearts content as long as they have cash. And the fish from that graduation all died even those disposed in Cartimar Center where all cyanide and badly mauled fish ends for the local market serving unsuspecting hobbyist. Now we have Sulu as the bragging point of training and certification. It is the height of hypocrisy.
The audacity of this claim!!! This time this group carried green washing to the highest level.
Would anybody in the West dare spend a few weeks to validate the truth of the effectiveness of this training? This is where the word MORO MORO was coined.

Ferdie

 

[clarionreef]

On AOL news today ...
Regarding the Abu Ghraib scandal;

Defense lawyer Frank Spinner said Harman was a novice soldier who received virtually no training before going to work at the chaotic and overcrowded prison as part of the Maryland-based 372nd Military Police Company.

''Shame on the Army for putting an ill-equipped, ill-trained junior specialist in a position where she had to challenge her (enlisted) leadership to do the right thing,'' he said. ''This is not one of the Army's finest moments.''

Steve

You mean when underlings find error...they often sit on it...cover for the boss or become accomplices to it?

Imagine that.

 

[Kalkbreath]

These solders sent the trophy photos to their friend and family in the USA the same day the photos were taken.
There was never and questioning of the prisoners during the sadistic photo ops. Do you really think that if top level commanders were part of the event, the Army would have let the photos available for personal email minutes after the sweaty pyramid collapsed?
Or that during the prisoner abuse, the military might have wanted to take the opportunity to question prisoners at such an opportune moment?What better time to interrogate then when the footprints of your cell mate are still fresh on your back}?
Just like in American Prisons, Women have no place in a male prison. It was clearly our ladies in uniform being along side the boys in blue that caused this event to happen .......... Am I the only person in America willing to admit what really happened there?

 

[Anonymous]

Lee wrote :

So is there a net shortage or not?

Steve wrote :

Of course there is. Easily 90% of all the divers in the Philippines have neither the right handnetting nor the barrier netting

Mike wrote :

Hand netting? No, not at all.

Okay, I'm confused. Someone must be misinformed, or lying.

What's the deal?

Peace,

Chip

 

[clarionreef]

There is HAND NETTING in abundance....
but its not available to most divers...

Theres brittle gill net available...but its hated by divers for inefficiency, killing fish, gilling fish, wounding fish and causing too much down time mending it in the boat...
Theres virtuallly no normal 2 lb monofilament BARRIER netting available at all...and this is the most important netting by far.

So, depending on your semantic skills and motivation, you can weave all this either way.

However, for most divers today there is no handnetting or genuine fish collecting, 2 lb barrier netting in use at all.

Steve
PS.
Still confused? Everyone else is also it seems. For people who collect fish for a living however, its very simple....but theres none of them here on RDO ... like ever.

 

[clarionreef]

In golf,
They have putters, drivers and numbered irons...
If presented here I dare say many would find the game so confusing that it could never be understood.
Why not just use a stick and save money?
The more detached one is from the game, the more you may think thats a reasonable thing to say.
The more removed the easier it is to remain confused.
Go tell it to V.J. Singh or Tiger Woods and see what kind of reaction you'd get. How bout the local golf shop clerk?
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Man, how long you been veiwing this forum Chip? If you missed it, I wonder just how many people actually get it?

 

[Anonymous]

Man, how long you been veiwing this forum Chip?

Long enough to know that it's mostly loaded with liars, and until people name names and post proof, the hobby will go down the crapper.

There, how's that?

Peace,

Chip

 

[Kalkbreath]

There has been a lot of talk about naming names? Who is it that we dont know and needs to be outed for this forum to pass the sniff test? Did I miss something?

 

[clarionreef]

Naming names?????????
What....is there a secret left undisclosed.
Is there anyone not named yet?
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well Steve, Im sure there are still plenty of uncharted waters we could go into {Like Pearl Harbor in a thunderstorm :wink: } But dirty laundry is not what I think the posters mean when they speak of using real names on this board. What is the big deal with one post contributors? A guy posts a single post as Devils advacate ......so what?
What does or would naming names mean to marillion?

 

[clarionreef]

I thought the problem was that there has been too much exposure for some. Too much disclosure and revelation.
With all the information available here...people can decide better what to believe if they have the attention span...
If anything, THERE HAS BEEN TOO MUCH freedom of expression practiced here and frankly speaking, hardly any where else.
The archives here are a goldmine of notions not understood by layman,dealers, funders, NGOs, etc. This place is the veritable "Drudge report" of the industry.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Man, how long you been veiwing this forum Chip?

Long enough to know that it's mostly loaded with liars, and until people name names and post proof, the hobby will go down the crapper.

There, how's that?

Peace,

Chip

Much better

Proof and names are all contained all on this forum. We get in trouble every time we go down that path (hence the past and present stickies). Stupid lawyers. Do away with them, and I'll sing like a bird, not that I haven't every chance I get Nothing stops me from speaking my mind, well, a 250lb black belt sure would. I'm sure Lolita won't have a warm welcome for me, nor Pratt/Holthus/Rubec and the rest of the eco NGO (Nothing Going On) that have leached on to this topic wasting millions.

A guy posts a single post as Devils advacate ......so what?

I knew it was you Kalk :lol:

 

[M_Phobos]

Just a question for Mike.....


Sooooo.......if MAC doesn't see training/providing netting as part of its mission, what does it see as its mission?

Isn't one of the major goals of MAC to stop the cyanide trade? And isn't net-collection the only real alternative to cyanide collection?

I don't see how you can say, "We're here to stop cyanide collection" in one breath and in the next say, "but we sure as heck aren't going to provide an alternative to it."

Cheers,
Fred

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham,

I resent being lumped together with Dr. Vaughan Pratt (president of the IMA) and Mr Paul Holthus (Executive Director of the MAC) along with the accusation of leaching millions off of these issues (e.g. cyanide/net training). I have contributed my time and well over $100,000 of my own funds for over 20 years trying to find solutions to these problems. At no time did I ever receive renumeration in excess of $1,500 per month from IMA (or any other source). I was only paid for 2 years out of the 20 years that I have devoted to combatting destructive fishing.

In defense of the IMA, I might add that the IMA was (and still is) the only organization actively doing anything real by having staff in various countries conducting net training of marine aquarium fish collectors, cyanide testing, education programs (CREST), conducting coastal cleanups, conducting underwater surveys, doing research and monitoring the trade in groupers from host countries to Hong Kong etc. It collaborated with the MAC, until it became obvious that the MAC was "greenwashing" to sanitize both the marine aquarium and live food fish trades. Personally, I have no problem with the executive officers of various NGOs being paid high salaries, provided they do what they were contracted to do (e.g. net training) in an honest manner to the best of their abilities.

The marine aquarium trade is guilty of distributing cyanide to collectors and illegally trading (buying and selling) cyanide-caught fish. My last paper seems to have irked you by stating that the mortalities in the trade are too high. I see no reason to retract anything that I have published on these issues.

Steve Robinson has tried to get the trade to support net training before and while he was the president of AMDA. It is disappointing to see that the trade has done next to nothing to fund net trainings or done anything else substantial to deal with eliminating cyanide fishing, or improve the quality of fishes being traded. Bashing NGOs does not seem to have worked to get the trade behind what Steve was advocating.

Why didn't you mention Jaime Baquero, OVI or the Haribon Foundation? Why did you single out individuals associated with the IMA and the MAC? Why didn't you also target those involved with such NGOs as WWF, TNC, and the foundations and/or the agencies that provided the millions of dollars, which you allege were wasted?

Your posting seems to imply that it is OK to bash individuals in NGOs, but not OK to name individuals or companies in the trade (who may be guilty of whatever). Is this not a double standard? I call on RDO to ban Gresham for a week. If this continues, he should be permanently banned from posting on RDO.


Peter Rubec, Ph.D.

 

[Anonymous]

'Nothing Goin On'....





ooooooh, i liked that one


(rings so true, hehe)

 

[Anonymous]

Your posting seems to imply that it is OK to bash individuals in NGOs, but not OK to name individuals or companies in the trade (who may be guilty of whatever). Is this not a double standard? I call on RDO to ban Gresham for a week. If this continues, he should be permanently banned from posting on RDO.

It is my understanding that the not naming names things is not really an RDO policy, rather something Mary instituted when she was the moderator.
We could do what Peter suggests and make it a global rule, but I think that would severely limit the discussion. If the not naming names thing goes away we need to do something else to make sure this forum doesn't become witch hunty and slanderous.
Here is a thread in which these issues are being discussed:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=67926

 

[Anonymous]

..

 

[naesco]

These solders sent the trophy photos to their friend and family in the USA the same day the photos were taken.
There was never and questioning of the prisoners during the sadistic photo ops. Do you really think that if top level commanders were part of the event, the Army would have let the photos available for personal email minutes after the sweaty pyramid collapsed?
Or that during the prisoner abuse, the military might have wanted to take the opportunity to question prisoners at such an opportune moment?What better time to interrogate then when the footprints of your cell mate are still fresh on your back}?
Just like in American Prisons, Women have no place in a male prison. It was clearly our ladies in uniform being along side the boys in blue that caused this event to happen .......... Am I the only person in America willing to admit what really happened there?

No, you are just the only one with the courage to print it.