MAC Exporter has netting problems?

[naesco]

Would someone explain to me why we have a bunch of netting rotting in a wharehouse in the Philippines?

Did we provide the wrong type of netting?

Did we provide too much of the same netting?

This netting was donated by hobbyists concerned about the continued rampant use of cyanide in the Philippines.

Everyone must have free access to it period.

 

[mkirda]

Would someone explain to me why we have a bunch of netting rotting in a wharehouse in the Philippines?

Did we provide the wrong type of netting?

Did we provide too much of the same netting?

This netting was donated by hobbyists concerned about the continued rampant use of cyanide in the Philippines.

Everyone must have free access to it period.

Naesco,

Didn't this get 'splained to you before?
You demanded a "refund" from Mary for your contribution, IIRC.
What right then do you have to demand *anything* with regards to this netting?

Seriously, man, we could have sent over half as much netting for the same cost. It is just the way it is priced. Whole rolls are half the price of cut pieces. Half rolls cost as much as entire rolls. Freight costs would be very nearly the same, as the freight was maybe 3 or 4% of the total cost.

Mary also was very clear that the netting was to be donated to Ferdinand, to distribute as he worked with various villages. It was to be freely given, and the fishermen were not to pay for it. Those were the stipulations, and that is EXACTLY how it has been handled.

Mary knew that she was sending over enough for the next several years.

The issue here is more complex than anyone is making it out to be.
Steve's point is that the netting is still not readily available. Meaning, it is not for sale. Guia regularly asks Steve to procure and send her netting, which she then will turn around and sell in return.

The question you need to ask is this:
Should this donated netting be given to a business entity to be resold to fishermen? Because if you don't understand that this is exactly what would happen, you do not grasp the situation.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
The nettings cost prohibitive?????????
I guess the MAC, MAMTI budgets for more important things...or was it all just overlooked?
Its 10 bucks a diver for a year per diver...the so-called quality stuff....ie. 2 lb monofilament.
The 1 lb junk netting is 4 bucks per diver per 3-4 months as it degrades and tears to shreds quickly.
The so called expensive netting is better, last longer and keeps them off cyanide.
The junk netting is for saving money in city based budgets and for keeping divers inefficient, less productive and returning to cyanide fishing.
In Batangas and Palawig diver may weave their own at great time and effort. The quality net is so much coveted by these guys.
Why deny it to them?
Jeremy is so right about corruption and private agendas....
Steve
PS Whats a matter people, afraid to call out MAC because its marinated w/ a few of our own?
They leave us undefended by charges of unsustainability from the outside because they are continually squandering the chances...and the years to get this done right.
They could spring for the netting with the cost of just the entertainment budget at the next trade show.

 

[clarionreef]

To be sure,
The handnetting vs barrier netting will throw them off Mike.
Explained 17 times already in seasons and years gone by.........
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

And no,
Guia doesnt sell the handnetting to her guys....its very cheap anyway.
The point is simply the availability of the supply and as the MAC folks [ that handles millions...but has no handnetting ] are on the outs with the other group....[ that handles very little... but has the handnetting ] theres not much crossover.

Kinda like competing retailers.

"Hey we're outta blue tangs, run over to the other side of town and get me some from Petco." Yes, its a lot like that!
What did you think? That non-profit ment non profiteering?

There are few nastier competitors then eco-groups stabbing each other in the back and denigrating each other to court Packard et. money.
Money made morons into reformers and pays for the whitewash of the trade....
If they can't do it after squandering a few million, how do you think they'll fare with less?
This issue has defined and underscored the sell-out of the trades interest and proven to us that they are doing it without even bothering to make available fish collecting nets. :!:
Thats criminal.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Mike,
The nettings cost prohibitive?????????
I guess the MAC, MAMTI budgets for more important things...or was it all just overlooked?
Its 10 bucks a diver for a year per diver...the so-called quality stuff....ie. 2 lb monofilament.
The 1 lb junk netting is 4 bucks per diver per 3-4 months as it degrades and tears to shreds quickly.
The so called expensive netting is better, last longer and keeps them off cyanide.
The junk netting is for saving money in city based budgets and for keeping divers inefficient, less productive and returning to cyanide fishing.
In Batangas and Palawig diver may weave their own at great time and effort. The quality net is so much coveted by these guys.
Why deny it to them?
Jeremy is so right about corruption and private agendas....
Steve
PS Whats a matter people, afraid to call out MAC because its marinated w/ a few of our own?
They leave us undefended by charges of unsustainability from the outside because they are continually squandering the chances...and the years to get this done right.
They could spring for the netting with the cost of just the entertainment budget at the next trade show.

Steve,

Again, I don't disagree with you.
However how are you proposing that a poor fisherman in the Philippines contact a supplier here in the US, buy the net, then commerically import it, then pay the duty on it? There is no possible way to do that for $10.

The only way you can reach that $10 figure is by importing enough bundles to make nets in the thousands. The average fisherfolk will not make enough money to buy a minimum lot, even over the course of a decade! You know this, you lived there, and we have discussed what it would take to send even a minimum order over there. You would need contributions in the four digit range.

Again, while I can agree that MAC probably should act to get a minimum order together to distribute free of charge, I can also understand if they do not see it as part of their mission. Should MAC be involved in the netting supply business? Is that part of their mandate?

Let's put this into perspective here. Let's say you make $36,500 per year. You go to a training session. Do you expect that the agency doing the training would give you and every participant something worth $400? What if you don't continue to follow what the agency does or says? Is the "thing" still free?

People need to understand that giving away a net in the Philippines, where the average fishermen makes well below the average national wage, is like giving away an item worth at least four days of their typical wages. You don't necessarily want to give it away to fishermen not serious about reform. So how do you give it away to the serious players? Not all of them are in MAC. And when would MAC distribute the nets? When they start the training? Or only upon certification? How would we then deal with the 100 or so fishermen in Palauig, Coron and Bagac that MAC abandoned? So they would have gotten nets two or three years ago, but now? Where would they go to purchase replacements? MAC? Would MAC sell the netting to non-MAC certified fishermen?

I'm of two minds here, and I can see both sides of the coin. The reformist in me wants to see the nets readily available to everyone who will use them for the purpose intended. Maybe this should mean that, in the case of hand netting, the netting should go directly to the fishermen (and in this case, since Guia was mentioned, not directly to Guia...) But this also presumes that Guia's fishermen were strictly net-caught, not "mostly" net-caught, right???

This still all begs the question why you begrudge sending your supplier the supplies she needs to keep sending you the product you need to run your business? In this whole thread, this is the screaming undercurrent.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

MIKE,
I HAVE BEEN AND AM SENDING HER NETTING FOR 15 YEARS NOW. EVER SINCE GETTING THE NETTING LEGALIZED BACK IN 86 IN FACT.
Obviously, if I don't do it, it won't get done, which is the point of the thread in the first place.
MAC has abandoned the initial part of the certification scheme...ie working with and converting fisherman and decided to concentrate on " working the "demand side".
The screaming underlying theme is ....how does anything get certified if the divers are not trained and supplied with even the initial netting? As I ship off still more netting, I wanted to underscore that fact.
You wonder if I will send netting to MY OWN shipper but you must wonder a bit more about everyone else as well...you know, the rest of the entire industry...including those that supply the fish to Chicago.
This issue is suffering age and fatigue with having gotten off the ground...
My point was to simply point out that as another year goes by we are on our own as the money people on the issue do not help the fisherman.
They base their budgets and salaries on them, but they have abandoned them.
A good part of their failure is due to the years of inept consultation by a few local service guys. They worked cheap...which is why they were accepted inside the otherwise non aquarium trade circle.
Steve
PS Guia ships to others as well. Even certified others who also have no clue or interest about any of this.

 

[naesco]

Mike I am not demanding anything.

IF there is a problem in getting access to this netting by those who can you it, it needs to be fixed now.

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Guias netting will arrive soon and then theres no more problem...as no one else wants it.
I mean divers want it but exporters? Why?
They get certified without it and without netcaught fish...so wheres the problem?
They feel no pressure at all as hobbyists never put any pressure on the retailer and the retailer never put any on the importers and therefore the importer never put it on the exporter.
Only the fisherman are vulnerable to prosecution if he meets up with the odd...honest fishery patrol or police.
Local issue ...is it not?
Since the Western world sees nothing to act on [ besides word-play], the problem must be solved locally and for local reasons.
Tullock always said this will never work if dependant on hobbyists and dealers becoming better people. They will not.
MAC and RPI are dependant upon this demand side revolution of morality and spirit :lol: and that all agree to pay more for fish to pay for the administration of the bureaucracy to advance it. [ that alone makes it DOA}
Their routine pitch and plea to the trade shows and hobbyist shows is the most poorly received venue on the entire program...every single time. Hobbyists vote with their feet and if a reform slide show is to ever gain audience it must be at the dinner presentations where everyone is forced to listen WHILE THEY EAT.
CARING TOO MUCH LEAVES YOU ALL ALONE WAYNE.
AND caring without a plan or a clue even more so.
The cowardice in confronting the crooks, embezzlers and carpetbaggers on this stuff condemns it to a concern of perpetual impotence...and the politics of it all turns off so many as to leave the charletons with a free reign.
None of you have ever been heard by the guys that futher the grants that insure the issue will be delt with on paper only. Its a movement to provide write-offs for billionaires that don't really care.
They would never run their own business this way...but then again, they aren't really looking for results are they?
Buying off every eco-group in sight with the promise of a Packard grant has left them all gutless and caused them to abandon their original passion and concern.
They have become a part of the pet trade now.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

The following message is from Ferdinand Cruz,


To the readers
There are several important reasons why I have not been a constant participant in the RDO for some time but now perhaps by citing a few I would be answering the hullabaloo of the netting thing.
More than a year ago after so many meetings with the country director of MAC Philippines I was asked to keep silent on so many of the hot issues to give them a chance to do the whole program the right way. This director even went as far as promising that to satisfy me he would see to it that in each of their trainings I would be asked to validate the authenticity and correctness to set my mind at peace. I was even asked to submit a proposal for training and methods of approaches and details for training in order that we can all do one training method. Since the way it was offered sounded so sincere I agreed to everything except giving them a detailed method and approaches and I was very blunt in saying that I cannot give any manual and details due to MAC’s predilection to take shortcuts and bastardize the trainings. In that meeting I mentioned that they are welcome to the hand netting materials explaining that it needs a different technique but should be included as one of the important component of training. It is needed to catch certain species effectively that a barrier net cannot almost catch. In that meeting I was told I will be contacted for some nets when there is a need. Now certain species that needs this different netting material are appearing in the supply chain that is being claimed as caught in volume by barrier nets. So who would presume that they did not have this kind of nets? I presumed of course that with all their mega bucks they would rather purchase these kinds of nets so as not to have anything to do with me because after submitting the proposal that came out after several meetings to discuss it the gods of Hawaii came to visit us acting like cardinals from Rome left and never was heard from again.
Prior to submitting that proposal in that meeting again the country director and I discuss the problem of increasing the number of collectors by training more non-collectors. My stand on this then was that there were just over a thousand true existing suffering collectors then and at present and if you increase them with out a guarantee of a good viable income you have more candidates of future cyanide users. I just saw a very small almost imperceptible nod when I wanted this commitment.
We had to study supply on our own. Consider this issue. When IMA was still an active player in this field the collated data of volume of export and the volume of flow of ornamental fish to export facilities were collected every year. IMA monitored the land sea and air system of transport of ornamental fish. We knew where it was coming from and the volume that was being brought into Manila. (I doubt if somebody is doing this now to know what is really happening and this should be done.) The last record I had of this was in 1997. Up to that point there were still a lot of exporters and the big ones would be able to export approximately 2,000 to 3,000 boxes monthly. It was even higher before 1997. Now there are fewer exporters and the big ones are hard put in exporting a maximum of a thousand five hundred boxes a month. Exporters now send their buying agents to the field with money to corner supply and a lot of them come back empty handed or with trash and badly treated fishes. I know that the reason being claimed for this situation is that there are less ornamental fish collectors now but three weeks ago we went out to look for a certain species that we needed to get. We went to a place that was very well known to have it and for three days with three of us diving we were only able to get four pieces and the place had almost no fish at all.
We learn from the mistakes of MAC and will not dare do what they are dong. One incident; they trained in one area. They had to big shots of BFAR attending a closing ceremony of the training. Big party!!! When the graduating ceremony was about to begin somebody told them that collection was ban in that area by law. That was funny but what is not funny is that now that place is a heaven for corruption. Any group of collector can go there and use cyanide to their hearts content as long as they have cash. And the fish from that graduation all died even those disposed in Cartimar Center where all cyanide and badly mauled fish ends for the local market serving unsuspecting hobbyist.
Now we have Sulu as the bragging point of training and certification. It is the height of hypocrisy. The audacity of this claim!!! This time this group carried green washing to the highest level. It is like telling some radical Iraqis “please do not use suicide bombers and car bombs to have more victims”. It is like telling our Abu Sayaf terrorist group not to go on kidnapping rich people and foreigners. They stop until they see the next one. Would anybody in the West dare spend a few weeks to validate the truth of the effectiveness of this training? This is where the word MORO MORO was coined.

 

[mkirda]

Mike I am not demanding anything.

IF there is a problem in getting access to this netting by those who can you it, it needs to be fixed now.

Apparently, there is no problem with Netting supply...
Slightly edited the headers to improve readability and to remove my e-mail address and Guia's.
Visit the PTFEA site if you want to contact her directly.

Delivered-To: mkirda
Received: (qmail 27214 invoked from network); 2 May 2005 08:17:01 -0500
Received: from mx2.mydestiny.net (mx2.mydestiny.net [202.8.224.17])
by uic.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j42DH0nn026653
for <mkirda>; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:17:00 -0500
Message-ID: <000b01c54f1b$3631c5b0$b62280ca@louielouie>
Reply-To: "Guia Dimayug" <hd_marineworld>
From: "Guia Dimayug" <marineworld>
To: "Mike Kirda" <mkirda>
Cc: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Have you seen this, Guia?
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:31:12 +0800

Dear Mike Kirda,

I was really surprised to read your message We have plenty of barrier
nettings around .

I wrote Steve Robinson because the supplier that he trained 15 years ago was asking for nylon mesh that she can use for scooping the wrasses. Steve trained them to catch wrasses that way and so I asked Steve if he could send me some for his divers. That particular week the daughter-in-law of my supplier was not around because she has no more net, so I e-mailed Steve.
But the following week, she was back because she was able to repair the one that she was using. For your info, the station was not closed and my divers are supplying me with fish every week.

How come there are so many people who have very negative attitudes making mountains out of molehills? I have no problem with barrier nettings as we have tons of them. I am really very sorry for this people who try to destroy other people's reputation. You know, I am very sure that they must be VERY UNHAPPY because what they sow they reap. I really pity them.

I really do not know how to send this to people concerned but I hope you can publish my letter for everyone to read. Thank you for making me aware of what is happening around.

Best regards,
Guia

Per Ferdinand (who is not currently in PI), he will personally deliver Guia a supply of hand netting material if she requires any.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
If it were true that 'a guy' that I trained 15 years ago is the only one in need of the netting, why did you guys send a few miles of it over there then? For that one guy, we can just fold it tightly and mail it in a Manila envelop.
Guias the secretary of the exporters assoc. and MAC certified .
You have forced her to respond and minimize the need for netting as does the MAC line.
Well then, problems solved....no netiing needed and I need not send anymore.
Now that Ferdie will give her a yard or two....theres still, what 2 miles of it left? Gago....
Steve
PS.
Minimizing the need for netting supply Mike? Strange reform strategy.

 

[clarionreef]

Feride wrote:
"I was very blunt in saying that I cannot give any manual and details due to MAC’s predilection to take shortcuts and bastardize the trainings. In that meeting I mentioned that they are welcome to the hand netting materials explaining that it needs a different technique but should be included as one of the important component of training. It is needed to catch certain species effectively that a barrier net cannot almost catch. In that meeting I was told I will be contacted for some nets when there is a need. Now certain species that needs this different netting material are appearing in the supply chain that is being claimed as caught in volume by barrier nets. So who would presume that they did not have this kind of nets? I presumed of course that with all their mega bucks they would rather purchase these kinds of nets ..."

All just for a few wrasse guys? Comon people.
Its far bigger then a MAC mouthpice will ever tell you ....
Mike, you in or out?
Steve[/b]

 

[mkirda]

You have forced her to respond and minimize the need for netting as does the MAC line.
Well then, problems solved....no netiing needed and I need not send anymore.
Now that Ferdie will give her a yard or two....theres still, what 2 miles of it left? Gago....
Steve
PS.
Minimizing the need for netting supply Mike? Strange reform strategy.

Force her to respond? I did no such thing- She is free to delete my e-mail to her as so much spam.

She asked me to post it - so I did.

I've said in previous posts on this board and even in this thread that I support having the best netting available. Is that such a strange reform strategy? Is that "minimization"?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Why not ask Lolita Ty next how good things are over there?
Go ahead, send her an email.
Will any MAC approved business type tell you of shortfalls, wrong netting, failed training, disgruntled divers, backtracking to cyanide from neglect of their needs?
Then again, if the divers input is ignored, the exporters speak English and will answer for him...
Geez Mike

 

[Anonymous]

So is there a net shortage or not? :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Lee,
Of course there is.
Easily 90% of all the divers in the Philippines have neither the right handnetting nor the barrier netting that much of the non S.E. Asian world has.
As explained 100 times here to no avail, the bogus, fake, inappropriate, thin, flimsey, cheese slicer, fin tearing, slime scraping, brittle, delicate, inferior, ineffective, inefficient junk is available and serves to placate and satisfy everyone but the divers.
So, the divers don't take this new 'technology' with much enthusiasm, and many go right back to cyanide fishing.
Filipinos sent to collect in Vanuatu, Belize and Tonga got to use the right stuff and won't go back.

Offered to any Mexican, Australian, Hawaiian collector... the phoney netting would be thrown in the garbage can.

Engineering and maintaining this situation by outsiders, semi-environmental do-gooders, inept NGOs etc. should make them ashamed...but they don't endure field audits by anyone in the know...and so the charade continues.

Steve

 

[mkirda]

So is there a net shortage or not? :lol:

Hand netting? No, not at all.

Again, MAC was offered in good faith some of the hand netting material that was sent over. They never took Ferdinand up on his offer, one made without any conditions whatsoever.

I think it is as simple as MAC not seeing this as part of their job, not part of their mission. We here at RDO can argue over this forever, but if they don't see it as part of their mission, I doubt our arguing amongst ourselves will do squat to change their minds.

MAC, if you are listening... You want some of the hand netting to distribute to areas where you are working, it is yours. All you have to do is ask. You know how to reach me and I'll make sure it happens. No questions, no problems, no conditions.

The rest of this thread, regarding the Cadillac-grade barrier netting and the Chevy-grade barrier netting, I really have nothing more to say that I haven't already said. Fight on, Steve. I don't oppose you trying to get the best quality netting into the hands of all net-caught fishermen in any way, shape, or form.
Not everyone in the Philippines thinks the Cadillac netting is absolutely necessary...

That being said, I also don't think you should paint me in a bad light if I present the alternative point of view on making do with the current Chevy-grade netting. A good photographer can take great pictures with a crappy camera, a crappy photographer can take crappy pictures with a Leica too.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
Thanks for confirming the MAC indifference to the question of supplying the divers with the basic materials.
Cheap handnetting....
and cheap barrier netting is all the divers need.

You have illustrated their dis-interest in the handnetting....
and I have illustrated their dis-interest in barrier netting.

They are content with the fin slicer netting as its even cheaper still.
As I have clearly pointed out, the so-called fancy netting is just 10 bucks per diver per year. Characterizing it a cadillac netting is absurd....as it is actually the tropical fish netting that defines the job.

The substitution of the really cheap stuff by non fisherman and non field people saved some money by ruining the receptivity of the trainings.
This is a treason to the cause and a signature of every NGO to date!

Divers repudiate this netting amongst themselves yet you cite differences of opinion about it.
Mike, its not like you to side with office people over the fisherman....
At 10 bucks a diver per year ...the real netting is 35 times cheaper then cyanide.
Its also much cheaper then the junk netting that cost more due to the constant need to replace it....
The cheap netting costs 75 dollars a year compared to 10. It tears, it shreds, it dices and it sends the diver to the boat all day long to sew it up!!!!!!!!!!!
What part of this is hard to understand?!
Ofice people do not suffer this...only the non consulted, marginalized divers do.
Filipino divers in Belize got so frustrated by this garbage that they quit collecting until their importer got the right stuff to them. [ w/ my help].

Cutting field costs for the moment by cutting out the divers vital tool is an inexplicable misreading of everything ever explained here.

The real issue for me is that if we can't get thru to our best and brightest, who can we get thru to?

Steve
PS.
The PTFEA maintains that they have no cyanide problem, and therefore no netting problem.
This Monty Python-esque babble works? Really?

 

[mkirda]

Divers repudiate this netting amongst themselves yet you cite differences of opinion about it.
Mike, its not like you to side with office people over the fisherman....

The difference in opinion is amongst fishermen. Some want barrier netting so badly they hand-make it because they cannot get the quality they want.
Others make do with what is locally available - If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say they didn't have the patience or the skill to hand-tie the mono into a net. I was told that with the locally available netting, the worse wear and tear is where it touches the coral or reef substrate. Cheap netting rips easily - Hence the modification of adding the nylon mesh material as a runner on the bottom. That material is far stronger than mono, and can be easily and readily repaired, if needed. The difference in opinion is that this modified net is ok.
AND, yes, we know your opinion here, so no need to regurgitate the 'Cheese grater, slime coat slicer, cabbage shredder, cappuccino maker' line again... We know already.
Again, you are arguing with someone whom agrees with you, that the best netting material be available to the fishermen.

Regards.
Mike Kirda