I laugh at this. Certification hasn't really gotten me what I want fast. As far as imports, your scenario, which will probably never happen, will only severely slow the importation process, not only for the marine people, but also the freshwater people.
I can only imagine now, the poor guy around the corner from me, who has been importing FW fish for the last 35 years, having to wait until the following morning to have a shipment released because his FW fish will now be subject to examination as the authorities will have to ensure that the shipments do not contain marine fish.
This is already the case, Wayne. If your docs are in order, no problem. If they aren't, then your shipment will be subject to delay. Trust me, I've had to do some sweet talking to massage a shipment through Customs because either the airline lost paperwork or it wasn't completed properly by an exporter.
Not only that with your scenario, I would highly doubt that the gov't would make third party certification a mandatory requirement for importation. It would be the same as forcing any other company to become ISO certified prior to importing the products they require for their business. Pie in the sky, IMO.
Kyle I believe you know that BILL 4928 is inevitable with a similar law in Canada.
How than does industry and our hobby continue?
I am putting forward a solution. A MAC certificate that allows the import of fish and coral.
The certificate certifys that
1. the fish are not from a forbidden country.
2. that they are net caught
3. that they are not on the USL
4. that they come from sustainable areas.
BILL 4928 would not have happened had industry heeded the warnings and introduced reeform measures themselves.
They have turned a blind eye the cyanide, USL and other issues and allowed the cyanide cartel to destroy them.
Were I in industry I would blow the whistle on them and show the Government that industry reeform will happen.
As is obvious from the 'in denial' postings here, the Government will be forced to mandate the necessary changes.
I still feel that MAC can be industry's saviour but that would too much to swallow for many industry posters here. They would rather sink than swim with MAC.
How than does industry and our hobby continue?
I am putting forward a solution. A MAC certificate that allows the import of fish and coral.
The certificate certifys that
1. the fish are not from a forbidden country.
2. that they are net caught
3. that they are not on the USL
4. that they come from sustainable areas.
BILL 4928 would not have happened had industry heeded the warnings and introduced reeform measures themselves.
They have turned a blind eye the cyanide, USL and other issues and allowed the cyanide cartel to destroy them.
Were I in industry I would blow the whistle on them and show the Government that industry reeform will happen.
As is obvious from the 'in denial' postings here, the Government will be forced to mandate the necessary changes.
I still feel that MAC can be industry's saviour but that would too much to swallow for many industry posters here. They would rather sink than swim with MAC.
I guess I won't hold my breath. With our current gov't situation, I would think that it would be sometime before something was done. Again, like Steve, Mary, and others continue to suggest, maybe some industry insight may help. Your proposals are rather idealistic. Reality is completely different.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
...Wayne wrote;
The Certificate certifys
1. the fish are not from a 'forbidden country.'
huh? Thats # 1 on your list Wayne?
You mean there are imports allowed from forbidden countries accepted by customs and fish and wildlife now that are forbidden???
And the certification will fix this?
Well in that case...
Comic relief it truly is.
Steve
post # 2;
But,
This sort of junk does get read by other amatuers and bolsters their case for similar dogma and poppycock.
Why as we speak, there is a new "reform" group forming to ride herd on the trade and cites the massive Lallo DOAs as justification.
You know what really funny? The money train initiative, Case bill and MAC activity are spurring the rise of more competitors to jump into the pool.
Now we will see fur fly as they fight it out for the money doled out no non aquarium groups to fix the aquarium trade.
If...and I mean that seriously. If Packard was sincere...they would insist on some sembalence of professional input into the schemes of their camp followers & grant groupies. As the history of their funding failure proves...they take the grant writers word for it and assume that skill in securing money before is the only skill needed to keep getting it.
They have made monsters out of the environmental movement and molded them to fit their own agenda ie. certification as the way to work things ignorant and oblivious to the fact that 1,000 villages thruout SE Asia
will never, ever be re-fashioned to that system.
Paperwork yes...behavioral change and environmental improvement ...no.
The attempt to force-feed this Western Methodology to outlying villages from the TOP down is already DOA.
To push aggressively forward despite the failure of ALL their pilot field projects suggests something very strange. An out of kilter ignorance and avoidance of their own "scientific" methodology.
This is not an environmental shift in the trade...
Its a financial, re-distribution of wealth attempt cloaked in environmental generalities.
If the coral reef environment were indeed the sincere crux of it all, I could get behind it. But I know for sure, its a scam now. A grab for power that will certify anyone/thing with money.
Steve
The Certificate certifys
1. the fish are not from a 'forbidden country.'
huh? Thats # 1 on your list Wayne?
You mean there are imports allowed from forbidden countries accepted by customs and fish and wildlife now that are forbidden???
And the certification will fix this?
Well in that case...
Comic relief it truly is.
Steve
post # 2;
But,
This sort of junk does get read by other amatuers and bolsters their case for similar dogma and poppycock.
Why as we speak, there is a new "reform" group forming to ride herd on the trade and cites the massive Lallo DOAs as justification.
You know what really funny? The money train initiative, Case bill and MAC activity are spurring the rise of more competitors to jump into the pool.
Now we will see fur fly as they fight it out for the money doled out no non aquarium groups to fix the aquarium trade.
If...and I mean that seriously. If Packard was sincere...they would insist on some sembalence of professional input into the schemes of their camp followers & grant groupies. As the history of their funding failure proves...they take the grant writers word for it and assume that skill in securing money before is the only skill needed to keep getting it.
They have made monsters out of the environmental movement and molded them to fit their own agenda ie. certification as the way to work things ignorant and oblivious to the fact that 1,000 villages thruout SE Asia
will never, ever be re-fashioned to that system.
Paperwork yes...behavioral change and environmental improvement ...no.
The attempt to force-feed this Western Methodology to outlying villages from the TOP down is already DOA.
To push aggressively forward despite the failure of ALL their pilot field projects suggests something very strange. An out of kilter ignorance and avoidance of their own "scientific" methodology.
This is not an environmental shift in the trade...
Its a financial, re-distribution of wealth attempt cloaked in environmental generalities.
If the coral reef environment were indeed the sincere crux of it all, I could get behind it. But I know for sure, its a scam now. A grab for power that will certify anyone/thing with money.
Steve
How dumb am I??? Bring on the requirement for MAC certification and all that goes with it for the new importation requirements in Canada, as per Wayne. I would have the market cornered. Although...with the rather tight rules, there won't be any country I could import fish from. Oh well...at least I would be certified.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Kylen,
Here in America we certify the worst and largest offenders as they buy fish from the worst offenders in Manila.
They're not bonafide...but they are certified;
Follow me now Wayne...
which makes a mockery of the whole thing. Smaller integrity would've ment a lot more then big hypocracy. But, they needed money and went right to the money pots first.
Truth be told...its MAC that gots saved thru the begging of and finally getting a few to co-operate with them. Only firms large enough to throw away the money it costs to get certified can play this game and not require product.
An honest, netcaught outfit could never survive on the MAC program.
Thats a primary reason I'm against them. Far more then they...I believe in and insist on netcaught fish. Since they provide none...I am left with nothing to seek and develop netcaught source on my own.
They are a market study for the Packard thing for 'certification as a marketing tool in food fishes.' They are not in or for the aquarium trade.
Keeping out rent paying aqua pros from the beginning was by design. Hence the use of service guys to anchor their "inclusion of industry" as required by funders who actually call the shots.
Thats right; Instead of supporting an NGO w/ a better mouse trap, what we have is the use and creation of an NGO to push funder purposes.
This is shocking to true believers not swayed so easily by dogma and elementary eco-babble.
Real environmentalists owe it to their creed to remain honest and independant and not just be used as gophers and tools in grander schemes.
Real aquarium people have generally stayed away but 4-5 see some see utility in the counter-use of MAC for their own PR purposes.
This mutual usery is just business of course.
Steve
PS. Sorry Wayne...There is no Santa Claus in this. Too good to be true was it? Since when does the marginal talent to concoct eco-babble create and neccessitate true change? Since when does the easiest part in any plan COUNT for deeds.
To be so incredibly naive to believe anything and everything is sad.
Some guys are lucky they weren't born girls.
Some on RDO would be single and with 8 kids by now.
Here in America we certify the worst and largest offenders as they buy fish from the worst offenders in Manila.
They're not bonafide...but they are certified;
Follow me now Wayne...
which makes a mockery of the whole thing. Smaller integrity would've ment a lot more then big hypocracy. But, they needed money and went right to the money pots first.
Truth be told...its MAC that gots saved thru the begging of and finally getting a few to co-operate with them. Only firms large enough to throw away the money it costs to get certified can play this game and not require product.
An honest, netcaught outfit could never survive on the MAC program.
Thats a primary reason I'm against them. Far more then they...I believe in and insist on netcaught fish. Since they provide none...I am left with nothing to seek and develop netcaught source on my own.
They are a market study for the Packard thing for 'certification as a marketing tool in food fishes.' They are not in or for the aquarium trade.
Keeping out rent paying aqua pros from the beginning was by design. Hence the use of service guys to anchor their "inclusion of industry" as required by funders who actually call the shots.
Thats right; Instead of supporting an NGO w/ a better mouse trap, what we have is the use and creation of an NGO to push funder purposes.
This is shocking to true believers not swayed so easily by dogma and elementary eco-babble.
Real environmentalists owe it to their creed to remain honest and independant and not just be used as gophers and tools in grander schemes.
Real aquarium people have generally stayed away but 4-5 see some see utility in the counter-use of MAC for their own PR purposes.
This mutual usery is just business of course.
Steve
PS. Sorry Wayne...There is no Santa Claus in this. Too good to be true was it? Since when does the marginal talent to concoct eco-babble create and neccessitate true change? Since when does the easiest part in any plan COUNT for deeds.
To be so incredibly naive to believe anything and everything is sad.
Some guys are lucky they weren't born girls.
Some on RDO would be single and with 8 kids by now.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey,
You can still have the "market cornered" in low variety, higher cost netcaught fish that drive customers to the other side.
I do.
All netcaught and no place to go!
Steve
You can still have the "market cornered" in low variety, higher cost netcaught fish that drive customers to the other side.
I do.
All netcaught and no place to go!
Steve
Mitch, I'm still waiting for clarification on this. Could it be that your bird supplier is here in California and couldn't ship because of the END quarantine last year? I can't find anything about legislation restricting the shipment of birds. And if it was true, I should be able to easily Google it.
Mary,
I'm not sure what restrictions were placed on shipping birds. I did some checking and airlines do still carry them domestically. We haven't shipped any birds in over 15 years. I never see them at Southwest airlines. Perhaps it was just wild caught birds they stopped. Maybe someone else out there knows. I noticed Delta seems to go after this business. Bad example I guess.
Mitch
I'm not sure what restrictions were placed on shipping birds. I did some checking and airlines do still carry them domestically. We haven't shipped any birds in over 15 years. I never see them at Southwest airlines. Perhaps it was just wild caught birds they stopped. Maybe someone else out there knows. I noticed Delta seems to go after this business. Bad example I guess.
Mitch
I remember the shake-up with the bird shipping. Many of the foreign airlines did stop accepting birds and the domestic airlines were talking about it in the states. I know that KLM stopped taking birds all together and there were other International lines that were going to follow suit. PIJAC got heavily involved with it and sent out requests for money, memberships, etc. I remember them sending me a form type letter to send in so I am quite sure that it had something to do with government regulation. If I remember correctly (and I may not be as the cobwebs are pretty thick) the government was talking about fines for mortality and restrictions on number of birds and container sizes. PIJAC and the industry adopted rules that agreed on container sizes, number of animals per container, feeding schedules etc. and the government legislation went away and the airlines will accept birds today. In the articles that I read about it the airlines said that the amount of business that the bird trade gave them did not warrant the risk of penalty from the proposed restrictions. I am pretty sure that KLM and some other europe based airlines still do not move birds and some other small animals. About 4 years ago at Aquarama in Singapore there was a big stir because KLM had stopped accepting live fish shipments due to restrictive government regulations and the fines that would be imposed for breaking them. They had one case where some fish were not cleared for entering the country and the shipper would not release them to go back to the source. The fish were destroyed and then the airline was sued by a humane group for killing the fish. In the ensuing mess KLM just stopped accepting live shipments for a while. They are back doing it now but for a few weeks it had a lot of people worried in the european markets. I think that the KLM episode was in 1998.
I think that there is some similarity with our trade and what happened with the wild bird trade years ago, 1994 or there abouts. There were several quarantine stations / bird wholesalers in southern California and Florida. It was quite a trade with many people in the states and in third world countries relying on it for their living. The bird trade got some real bad press with the bird smuggling and the cutting down of trees to get the young ( similar to our press with cyanide and huge DOA losses ). I think that 60 minutes did a special on the smuggling and trade in Mexico. The government got involved and the next thing the bird trade knew the entire trade was shut down. They banned the whole thing with about a six month notice. There were some exceptions built into the ban law about allowing captive bred birds from a recognized breeding facility to enter the states. It took many years for a facility to become recognized and certified before the first birds were allowed to come in to the U.S. from other countries. It put all of the quarantine stations that I knew of out of business with almost no warning. The bird collectors that I knew in the Solomons went directly from selling birds into reptiles and logging. The guy doing the reptiles went from catching birds in a snare to cutting down trees to get the monkey tail skinks that lived in the upper branches. Ecologically a very bad move but something that I am sure the suits in D.C. have no clue about. If my fish collectors lose their jobs even for a couple of weeks they will be into food fishing and cutting down trees. Most of them seem to gravitate towards the logging as they are land owners (that is why they catch fish, they own the reefs) and cutting down trees replaces their fish money the easiest. (They make a lot more money catching ornamentals for me than they can catching food fish.) Cutting down trees causes more sediment runoff which suffocates reefs and does unbelievable damage, much more than MO collecting ever did.
That is my rant for today. I am obviously pissed off about all of the mis-information that is spewed about fish collecting, shipping mortality,etc. and is believed by people who have the wish and capability to change our industry without knowing what the truth really is. The scientists and enviromentalists (including naesco who ever he is) need to go live in the trenches for a few months and see what is really happening before they pass off their feel good ideas and warped thinking as truth.
Dave
I think that there is some similarity with our trade and what happened with the wild bird trade years ago, 1994 or there abouts. There were several quarantine stations / bird wholesalers in southern California and Florida. It was quite a trade with many people in the states and in third world countries relying on it for their living. The bird trade got some real bad press with the bird smuggling and the cutting down of trees to get the young ( similar to our press with cyanide and huge DOA losses ). I think that 60 minutes did a special on the smuggling and trade in Mexico. The government got involved and the next thing the bird trade knew the entire trade was shut down. They banned the whole thing with about a six month notice. There were some exceptions built into the ban law about allowing captive bred birds from a recognized breeding facility to enter the states. It took many years for a facility to become recognized and certified before the first birds were allowed to come in to the U.S. from other countries. It put all of the quarantine stations that I knew of out of business with almost no warning. The bird collectors that I knew in the Solomons went directly from selling birds into reptiles and logging. The guy doing the reptiles went from catching birds in a snare to cutting down trees to get the monkey tail skinks that lived in the upper branches. Ecologically a very bad move but something that I am sure the suits in D.C. have no clue about. If my fish collectors lose their jobs even for a couple of weeks they will be into food fishing and cutting down trees. Most of them seem to gravitate towards the logging as they are land owners (that is why they catch fish, they own the reefs) and cutting down trees replaces their fish money the easiest. (They make a lot more money catching ornamentals for me than they can catching food fish.) Cutting down trees causes more sediment runoff which suffocates reefs and does unbelievable damage, much more than MO collecting ever did.
That is my rant for today. I am obviously pissed off about all of the mis-information that is spewed about fish collecting, shipping mortality,etc. and is believed by people who have the wish and capability to change our industry without knowing what the truth really is. The scientists and enviromentalists (including naesco who ever he is) need to go live in the trenches for a few months and see what is really happening before they pass off their feel good ideas and warped thinking as truth.
Dave
And this is what I've been preaching over and over again. Feel good types like to think "Save a Reef- Ban the MO Industry". They just can't understand the big picture. This industry is the BEST utilization of the resource the villagers could possibly do. The alternatives are far worse. Heck, even the head of the World Wildlife Fund agrees with that. But let's not let rational thinking get in the way of feel good emotions.
Mary FIsh Dave don't you understand.
The issue of damage done to the reefs by cyanide fishers, high DOA rates, overfishing and catching fish that have no hope of survival even in experts tanks is way past feel good emotions of hobbyists like myself and reeform minded industry types
IT IS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOVERNMENT MY FRIENDS and crap like you have to let them fish with cyanide because if you prohibit it they will become loggers and log all the trees off the Philippines is simply just crap.
The is only one way to avoid the effects of Farhenheit 4928 that is for industry to reeeeeeeeeeformmmmmmmmm.
Do I have to paint a picture for ya?
The issue of damage done to the reefs by cyanide fishers, high DOA rates, overfishing and catching fish that have no hope of survival even in experts tanks is way past feel good emotions of hobbyists like myself and reeform minded industry types
IT IS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOVERNMENT MY FRIENDS and crap like you have to let them fish with cyanide because if you prohibit it they will become loggers and log all the trees off the Philippines is simply just crap.
The is only one way to avoid the effects of Farhenheit 4928 that is for industry to reeeeeeeeeeformmmmmmmmm.
Do I have to paint a picture for ya?
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