AMDA DISTRIBUTES NETTING

[clarionreef]

For thought,

" Every hero is a bore at last"
Emerson

When Henry David Thoreau got into trouble [again] for acting on conscience and landed in jail , Emerson asked him...
" What are you doing in there?"
...to which Thoreau replied...'WHAT ARE YOU DOING OUT THERE?"

Perhap Thoreau thought there were some things worth bucking the system for and relized the same system of inequity cannot be counted on to deliver reform.
Who else understood this? Gandhi, Mother Teresa, MLK, N. Mandela, Biko, Rizal, etc. etc.
How can it be that all historys most revered figures are followed so much in the literature and the movies but not in personal behavior and practice?
Passion for the resolution of serious issues and problems is a higher virtue then passion for politics, funding and turf fighting.
In as much as this is not popular idea...I understand the misunderstanding.
Steve

 

[naesco]

For thought,

" Every hero is a bore at last"
Emerson

When Henry David Thoreau got into trouble [again] for acting on conscience and landed in jail , Emerson asked him...
" What are you doing in there?"
...to which Thoreau replied...'WHAT ARE YOU DOING OUT THERE?"

Perhap Thoreau thought there were some things worth bucking the system for and relized the same system of inequity cannot be counted on to deliver reform.
Who else understood this? Gandhi, Mother Teresa, MLK, N. Mandela, Biko, etc. etc.
How can it be that all historys most revered figures are followed so much in the literature and the movies but not in personal behavior and practice?
Passion for the resolution of serious issues and problems is a higher virtue then passion for politics, funding and turf fighting.
In as much as this is not popular idea...I understand the misunderstanding.
Steve

My head hurts

 

[Douglas S Lehman]

Hello Jaime
What "big team" are you referring to?
Some times your best bet is with the underdog.
Do you remember the NY Jets of the late 60's.
The only "BIG MAC" I can find in all of Chicagoland is a hamburger?
Their fish are OK if your hungry enough.

The big team is the one that is getting grants and is trying to do something. I am not talking about fund raising campaigns of $400 or $ 800 in a year.

Hello Jaime
I think the key words are "grant" and "trying".
Could you tell me about how much money has been spent trying to solve this problem over the years. What happens to the MAC when & if the money runs out. At least were putting the needed material in the hands of the fisherman. I'm not a scientist or any thing, but I belive it is easier to net fish with a net than with out one. Were "trying" also but with out the benefits of Mr "grant"

 

[clarionreef]

IMAGINE, just imagine...
If the other group in question got as much 'bang for the buck' as we just did for $850.00 worth of netting material.
Of course it wasn't just any material but the one Hawaiians and Aussies use. The real stuff...and a fact all the commercial collectors have always known.
Keeping the solution away from the fisherman has been quite a trick and a tactic... all the while telling dealers that a certified supply is just around the corner. Well, the netting supply was just around the corner but the certified supply is actually dwindling!
If we got this much mileage out of 850, imagine if we get another 850! Or $8,500!
Now juxtapose this with the mega budgets ment to service and milk the issue for many years to come. We could train all the divers properly with but a year of that budget...yet after 6 years they have not achieved as much field credibility and productivity as what we just did!

I dare anyone to tell the divers this was no big deal. Maybe it wasn't to a few second string armchair quarterbacks...but to ex cyanide fisherman it is. For anyone claiming to care about the cause of coral reefs, this may breakout and gain momentum!

Steve
@ the all volunteer AMDA

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hello Jaime
What "big team" are you referring to?
Some times your best bet is with the underdog.
Do you remember the NY Jets of the late 60's.
The only "BIG MAC" I can find in all of Chicagoland is a hamburger?
Their fish are OK if your hungry enough.

The big team is the one that is getting grants and is trying to do something. I am not talking about fund raising campaigns of $400 or $ 800 in a year.

Hello Jaime
I think the key words are "grant" and "trying".
Could you tell me about how much money has been spent trying to solve this problem over the years. What happens to the MAC when & if the money runs out. At least were putting the needed material in the hands of the fisherman. I'm not a scientist or any thing, but I belive it is easier to net fish with a net than with out one. Were "trying" also but with out the benefits of Mr "grant"

Douglas,

Before answering your question some facts.

Do you have any idea how big and serious is the problem of cyanide fishing in the Philippines?

Did you know that there are in the Philippines thousands of fisherfolks collecting marine ornamentals and invertebrates for the marine aquarium industry?

Did you know that there are over 7,000 islands in the Philippines and that there are fish collectors operating on some of them?

Did you know that in order to tackle the cyanide problem, other important aspects (economic, social and cultural) had and have to be addressed at community level?

Did you know that in order to address all the above problems the NGOs need the services of competent community organizers and staff in the Philippines (southern NGO)

Did you know that community organizers that were trained by NGOs as IMA and Haribon are the best of their king in the region?

Did you know that NGOs working in the Philippines, specially IMA produced excellent educational material that has been distributed across the country
over the years?

Did you know that thanks to those NGOs the cyanide problem was presented to members of the aquarium industry including aquarium hobbyists in the U.S. , Canada and Europe?

Did you know that community organizers have been conducting an excelent job across the county?

Did you know that Haribon/OVI trained 800 collectors(direct training) in the Philippines to use nets instead of cyanide?

Did you know that collectors trained by Haribon trained other fish collectors in other countries.

Did you know that the same NGOs conducted a good number of workshops in many communities teaching collectors about water quality and better methods to hold and held their fish while at community level?


Did you know that the quality of fish coming from the Philippines has improved ?


Did you know that the marine aquarium industry knows about the cyanide problem in the Philippines for almost 20 years, but never gave a hand to NGOs working on something that was for the same industry's benefit?

Did you know that 95% of the money to implement OVI/Haribon programs in the Philippines came from government agencies in Canada?

Did you know that I put more than 8 years of VOLUNTEER work helping to find solutions to the cyanide problem in the Philippines.?

Did you know that what makes the problem more complicated is the lack of willingness, commitment and economic support from the same Filipino governmet to legislate and apply the laws?

Did you know that OVI, formerly IMA Canada, worked different projects with the Haribon Foundation for almost a decade?

Did you know that S. Robinson dissapeared from the picture for almost 10 years, now surfaced, and is blaming NGOs for doing nothing?

I can tell you that the amount of money we got from the Canadian government to implement the projects was not that much for 8 years of work.






[/b]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hello Jaime
What "big team" are you referring to?
Some times your best bet is with the underdog.
Do you remember the NY Jets of the late 60's.
The only "BIG MAC" I can find in all of Chicagoland is a hamburger?
Their fish are OK if your hungry enough.

The big team is the one that is getting grants and is trying to do something. I am not talking about fund raising campaigns of $400 or $ 800 in a year.

So the guy you called a fraud and questioned his integrity, is now the last chance in your eyes? Your not scared anymore about him having worked in the trade in the past and possiably now? What about all the things you've said about him in the past? You feel that different about him now? What happenned?

The guy is the last chance for YOU guys. But, if he wants to produce good results he has to dissociate from your boss, it doesn't matter where he goes. According to your boss' message I got a couple of days ago "rooming w/Ferdie in Hawaii", Ferdinand and him (your boss) will move to Bali. That means that "your" last chance in the Philippines is gone. I said to Ferdinand what I knew, I have my doubts that's all.

 

[naesco]

Just a short note to thank you for the information you shared in the most recent post.

It is obvious to me that when things change in the Philippines and the Philipinos take control of their reefs, you, your organization and the Canadian Government will again plan a leading role.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[mkirda]

Just a short note to thank you for the information you shared in the most recent post.

It is obvious to me that when things change in the Philippines and the Philipinos take control of their reefs, you, your organization and the Canadian Government will again plan a leading role.

Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

You mean that organization that just liquidated?
Yep, they'll be right there, in the thick of things. :roll:

You really should pay attention.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

But Mike,
Why would such as fine group as that close shop?
It makes no sense for such an effective, professional and dynamic organization to fold up when needed so.

One would think they would have funders banging on the door if only 10% of what was said was true.

Steve

 

[naesco]

Just a short note to thank you for the information you shared in the most recent post.

It is obvious to me that when things change in the Philippines and the Philipinos take control of their reefs, you, your organization and the Canadian Government will again plan a leading role.

Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

You mean that organization that just liquidated?
Yep, they'll be right there, in the thick of things. :roll:

You really should pay attention.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

What I am saying is that I did not know about the accomplishments Jaime was a part of and I was impressed.

Care to list yours?

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Ya need some independant verification....seriously.
Preferably Filipino verification. Don't take a salesmans word as gospel.
Perhaps Ferdie will have some opinion soon.
Horge...did you know how much they claimed to have done? Or is it claimed from this side only?

Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

But Mike,
Why would such as fine group as that close shop?
It makes no sense for such an effective, professional and dynamic organization to fold up when needed so.

One would think they would have funders banging on the door if only 10% of what was said was true.

Steve

That honest NGO close down operations because the Board of Directors found that they didn't have the time, energy and money to keep the organization running the same way Dr. Don E. McAllister did. That was an honest decision. Difficult to accept but honest.

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, As one of the founders of IMA-Canada (which later became Ocean Voice International-OVI) I was saddened to learn that the group was being disbanded (shut down). Don McAllister was a powerhouse for marine conservation with a broad influence beyond the issues in the Philippines and the aquarium trade. I made a speech and awarded a medal in tribute to Dr. Don McAllister recently (February 15th) at the American Association of Science (AAAS) meeting in Seattle, Washington. In the speech (at a special session on deep sea temperate coral communities) I spoke about Don's work as the head of the ichthyology collections at the Canadian Museum of Nature in Ottawa, Canada, my association with him as a young naturalist (member of the Ottawa-Field Naturalists' Club), my association with him in providing fish specimens to the museum (from surveys of the Ottawa River, the Gatineau Park PQ, and the Gulf of St. Lawrence), coursework concerning fish ecology and ichthyology from him and his wife Nancy associated with the University of Ottawa (he also was an adjunct Professor at Carleton University). He mentored and encouraged a number of students who now work at the museum (like Dr. Brian Code). We founded IMA-Canada in 1987. Don started SeaWind with IMA and continued to publish it for 15 years (it later became the publication for OVI). Don was the head of the Coral Reef Fishes Group for the IUCN. He developed a wide range of contacts, who wrote articles for SeaWind and fed him information about the status of the world's oceans. He also became the editor of the bulletin Biodiversity in association with the Tropical Nature Conservancy. Both SeaWind and Biodiversity were Don's creations and he was among the first to sound the alarm about the need to protect deep-sea corals, about the destructive aspects of trawling (A world-wide campaign to ban rock hopper trawling is now being mounted by Oceana and MCBI) etc.

Don will be missed by many scientists. I hope that the aquarium trade and marine aquarists appreciate what sacrifices have been made by Don through IMA and OVI to help protect coral reefs, and rescue the aquarium trade from its self-destructive tendencies.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

(A world-wide campaign to ban rock hopper trawling is now being mounted by Oceana and NCBI)

Who's NCBI and can you provide a link to both?


Jaime, you should post the report that was on OVI's now defunct website, it told the other side of the story quite well. I seem to remember one of the reasons the net training program fell apart, was due to lack of proper netting. This can be varified by one of your old posts (in a thread I dredged up the other day) stating .17mm is the netting used (even though we were talking about hand netting at the time, not barrier netting--- you still didn't even get the thickness right, even for barrier netting) That in fact, is the mequito netting that rips like paper and leads converties to backslide (plus swear off any future "conversion" attempts). When you give a convertie an improper tool and tell him its better then cyanide fishing, what do you think he'll do, repair the net every fish he catches? He will swear of nets and all that told him to do so. The failures are numerous, and plague true reform like you wouldn't believe. Improper tools pushed by NGO's have lead to many devistating events, ie. pushing American style farming on Africa and mesquito netting fed to cyanide fishermen to convert them. Both failled for OBVIOUS reasons.

 

[naesco]

Dr. Rubec
Thank you for posting about Dr. Don McAllister's contribution to the preservation of our reefs.
It saddens me to hear about the closure.

Gresham
Will you quit behaving like such a *****.

Your lack of judgement on a post that is educational to many of us and provides us with a bit of a background to people and organizations which have contributed to stopping the destruction of the reefs should not longer be tolerated.

Seriously, you need to take a break from this board and come back after a while. I know you have experience and much to add.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, Jaime posted all that months ago, guess you haven't been reading. Was it not you who said, "Peter, I don't care about the past." (want me to get the full wuote?) Well, yes it was you. I do care about the past, both good and bad. I want to learn from mistakes, ie. pushing wrong nets and such.

We're still waiting for you to do something.

PS. I can't disappear for months on end like you, I have to live this every day.

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham, I meant MCBI stands for Marine Conservation Bioligy Institute headed by Dr. Elliot Norse who edited the book "Global Marine Biological Diversity" published by Island Press in 1993.

If MCBI and Oceana ever decide to turn their attention to the aquarium trade, expect results (good or possibly bad). These are the organizations that sued the National Marine Fisheries Sevice and forced almost all of the US Fisheries Management Councils to redo their Environmental Impact Statements for Essential Fish Habitat (EFH).

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne aka Neasco wrote:

Gresham
Will you quit behaving like such a *****.

Is that from Reeform or you?


I see some double standards here, I can be called a *****, but I can't call one a *****?

 

[Anonymous]

Just a short note to thank you for the information you shared in the most recent post.

It is obvious to me that when things change in the Philippines and the Philipinos take control of their reefs, you, your organization and the Canadian Government will again plan a leading role.

Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

You mean that organization that just liquidated?
Yep, they'll be right there, in the thick of things. :roll:

You really should pay attention.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

What I am saying is that I did not know about the accomplishments Jaime was a part of and I was impressed.

Care to list yours?

naesco- i've repeatedly asked you what you've done/accomplished/contributed to, and you've elected to not respond.
how dare you challenge anyone here in this forum to list their accomplishments/efforts, when yours are totally lacking, with the exception of some ego fed maniacal ranting and raving, on and off, over the past 2 yrs.(playing tang police doesn't count btw-especially when you don't even use the self appointed role constructively, but use it as a tool for talking down to noobs :wink: )

just your level of informative background, with respect to the industry would be enough-like how long you've been employed in any part of the industry, what active role you played, either directly or by contribution, to the 'reeform' issues you always yell about. (so far it's been yell only)

most of the folks posting here are so out of your league,vis-a-vis their involvements/accomplishments, that challenging their veracity, or their experience is simply a ludicrous act on your part, especially since you've proven time and time again how ignorant you are about your own chosen subject matter, and how one sided dialogue is all you ever engage in.


for the umpteenth time, naesco- what have you done to help anything?

by what right do you ask these questions, have you taken some kind of 'hypocritical oath'? :?

you're reflecting quite poorly on my impression of the canadian people, ya know

 

[Anonymous]

Ferdinand and him (your boss) will move to Bali

Uh, Steve, you didn't tell me your moving out of the country. Does Ferdie know yet?

Peter, I wasn't trying to correct you, I was trying to get more info on them. I'd like to look into them more, thats all.