Coral collection banned in Fiji?

[jake levi]

whynot get back on topic??

ceasing to order Fijian corals will just put some collectors/exporters out of business, and wouldnt affect the govt one bit. They could care less in the short run, whichever partisan group is represented.

Better to cooperate with CITES and the exporters,
work on both ends of the problem, and,

do it through the lists that Mary and the members here have helped put together. If we(industry) can demonstrate that we have come up with intelligent lists of suitable species for import and reject the rest we will get far better treatment from CITES then we have demonstrated to date that we should receive.

To this moment CITES has little reason to view the industry as nothing other then a bunch of robber barons.

If we demonstrate some self discipline and responsibility there is reason to move for an active partnership with them. That basis is totally missing at this time.

jake

 

[naesco]

I think everyone welcomes your comments Jake.
I know it takes time but please take the time to comment on your and your customers experience with species on the list.
If you are short of time please at least comment on the commonly available ones like Moorish Idol, cleaner wrasse, clown sweetlips etc.
Have we left out some species from the list?
Thank you

 

[jake levi]

As others here, I have ordered the 'impossibles' and learned the hard way. When commenting to distributors I get the old answer 'others seem to keep them', which is a half truth which means its a lie. 'Others' do keep them, a month or three and then it dies. I think the lists are a good start, right now there isnt even a start, anywhere.

I do think that if there was a retailers org that said unequivocably "if you continue to order in these animals we willnot buy from you but from others who import in a responsible manner" that it would get the attention of a great many of these importers/transhippers. If that is reinforced by the retailers when the importers call for an order I think you would shortly see a real shift in what is more commonly seen in stores.

IF, simultaneously you could get the hobby mags to run features by well known people as to what responsible retailers/hobbyists shouldnt be buying and the rationales for it that would complement the first point. You will always have those renegades who will stock anything for a fast buck, but the ones who wont will have another sales point in their favor " I stock what you can keep alive and wont be wasting money on", that can spread to the importers.

I agree with Glenn in that the 'bottom line' is the driving arguement here, the bottom line for the aquarist is buying and keeping animals alive, the bottom line for the store is selling animals at a price that makes a profit for them, and the bottom line for the importer/distributor is continued sales from satisfied customers, again being able to make a profit on them.

As for the collector, I can tell you from experience in the Philippines that if it doesnt go in the live fish tank it usually shows up in the food fish markets, no waste. If the collector knows that a fish has no export value it either goes back in the water or if it has size it goes to the fish market. Quite pragmatic.

The key that I see to responsible sales on the part of the importer, distributors, retailers is the bottom line, making it attractive to operate selling responsibly. If it pays, they will do it.

If it doesnt pay the best that it will ever get is lip service.

I dont think it will work trying to even deal with the points of origin, its far more productive to deal with the problem right here at home. Some kind of an education program/assistance can be productive at the source, i.e. dont use cyanide/explosives, but its far more productive to say ' we wont buy from you if you do or if you ship these animals'.

The main species I havent seen on the lists, or missed is the hippocampus, the bulk of them should
be excluded other then for study purposes/captive breeding.

I would like to see a category of 'propagation' added to the import permits. I think the addition of that would make it easier to restrict a number of the species that shouldnt be retailed at this time.

so, more thoughts.

 

[naesco]

Thank you for your candid contribution. It is refreshing to have an industry type set the record straight.
Can you comment further on your propagation category?

 

[jake levi]

A 'propagation permit' would be a permit to import a stated number of a species for the purpose of propagation/captive breeding/rearing.

NOT a permit for open ended imports to frag or divide. A permit to obtain seed stock to propagate. Sexually,asexual or division.

 

[naesco]

I fully agree Jake.

 

[MaryHM]

First, I want to apologize for my recent inactivity on the board. I have been extremely busy and have had time to read, but not time to post much.

I spoke with a wholesaler friend of mine today who also has a station in Fiji. He said that he spoke to Fish & Wildlife about the situation and they say that the adoption of any CITES recommendation by the US would have to go through two committees first, and that it's not a quick process. The US has not started the process as of yet. Germany has decided to adopt the recommendation and no longer allows the import of Fiji CITES animals. For the record, when we say "CITES animals", it means live rock and corals. Fish would still be ok to import, but wouldn't be imported due to the high freight rates incurred when shipped a small amount of freight. Rock and coral makes up the vast majority of Fijian exports. It is also important to realize that no country is required to become a member of CITES. For instance, Solomon Islands and the Marshall Islands are not. Fiji was really in no position to join CITES when they did, because they are severely lacking in organization within the government. Hopefully they will be able to get their legislation up to par enough to satisfy CITES and that will be the end of it. If not, expect to see the prices of live rock SKYROCKET.

 

[Kalkbreath]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM:
For instance, Solomon Islands and the Marshall Islands are not. .[/QB]<hr></blockquote> I think Tonga is out of the loop as well? {no CITIES}
_________________
Mercedes Vehicles

 

[Bill2]

Also think Western Samoa is also.

 

[Bill2]

Here is a link of parties
http://www.cites.org/eng/parties/alphabet.shtml

Only parties found in Oceania are
Vanuatu
New Zealand
Fiji
Australia
Papua New Guinea

Various other "contries" fall under another sovereign nation I would assume this probably include:
Tahiti
American Samoa
Marshall Islands

Philippines & Indonesia are considered Asia. I don't know where the breaking line is.

 

[Canadian]

Canada has now accepted the import ban FYI.

 

[MaryHM]

Germany and England too

 

[Kalkbreath]

YES! That leaves,More corals for the USA!
_________________
grand daddy purple plants

 

[naesco]

I am proud of my country.
I expect the USA to follow soon.

 

[jake levi]

It would seem that some common sense would dictate
to those involved that the market for captive produced products should be getting better both from an availability standpoint as well as competitivness in quality. Thats the upside, the downside is that I am quite sure that this is going to increase.

As was said, either we regulate ourselves or it will be done for us, and the later has a lot of downsides for the industry and the hobby.

 

[Scottis24]

GROW UP fishaholic, Better yet be quiet. I think what bill was trying to say is that Tourisim would be one of Fiji's leading industries. In other words something that puts money in peoples pockets. I highly doubt that ornamental fish export puts much money in a lot of the LOCALS pockets....... I imagine working in the tuna fish packing plants and harvesting sugar cane does. Of course I have never been there (yet).

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scott Jones:
<strong>GROW UP fishaholic, Better yet be quiet. I think what bill was trying to say is that Tourisim would be one of Fiji's leading industries. In other words something that puts money in peoples pockets. I highly doubt that ornamental fish export puts much money in a lot of the LOCALS pockets....... I imagine working in the tuna fish packing plants and harvesting sugar cane does. Of course I have never been there (yet).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yawn


I have not been spending anytime here but it is always refreshing to be flamed by someone whos own logic works against their point.

1st, I do not thnk Bill has any problem posting his opinion.

2nd, If the ornamental fish trade does not put money in the local peoples pocket then what incentive is there for them to protect the trade or the reefs, besides the numbers dictate you are wrong.

3rd, I think it is great that some countries with big sales in ornamental fish (Germany and England) are helping. Canada is always a little greener than most.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]</p>

 

[MaryHM]

I have just received word that Fiji is sending a delegation to Geneva to discuss this issue directly with the CITES Secretarit. Will keep you all posted.

 

[MaryHM]

The information I received earlier about Canada banning imports from Fiji based on the CITES recommendations is apparently false. I sell to a Canadian distributor who has "not been able" to import Fiji for over a month, and was just told by officials that he is allowed to import from Fiji.

 

[ajx22]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM:
<strong>The information I received earlier about Canada banning imports from Fiji based on the CITES recommendations is apparently false. I sell to a Canadian distributor who has "not been able" to import Fiji for over a month, and was just told by officials that he is allowed to import from Fiji.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Canada is still in the import business from Fiji...we order from Walt Smith regularly with no problems. (Also asked Walt about this 'ban' and he knows nothing of it either).