Algae Analysis : What can It be ?

[Chris5]

Wait who said i was using tap water?
I was using that as an example of what i did before on my very first tank and it was before i knew any better and ironically my water was amazingly clear ...

Using a 3 stage ro/di unit with my nano presently .. and i know the ropes here cmon, its all about the quality of the water and the care for the inhabitants/corals in our lil boxes ...
I know how everyone feels about tap water, and since its not really a reliable clean water supply to drink without a filter, why use in a reef tank where the smallest thing could set off a problem ,.

I never knew a phosphate discussion would be so heated lol ...

 

[jhale]

..its that it confuses me on the fact that some people run tanks on pure tap water and never have a phosphate problem

I was commenting on what you said there. using tap water would lead to a huge amount of PO4 in the system.

 

[jhale]

these posts will help you understand why we are discussing PO4 so much.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/373661-post72.html

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/373676-post73.html

 

[KathyC]

Do I have this correct... according to that info...due to the high phosphate level not only is there an increase in algae but there is also an increase in bacteria?
sooo..the increase in bacteria could account for his water being cloudy (that I've seen happen before), and the added green tint to the water is obviously the algae.
sooo...he is dealing with one issue that is causing 2 effects and he needs to deal with both..the bacteria will eventually level itself out AFTER the algae (caused by the high phosphates) have been reduced enough to disppear once his phosphates are at a much lower level?

Chris..wondering about a couple of things..do you use well water or a 'city' type water supply? It would be interesting to know what your phosphate levels are straight out of the tap (I know you use rodi water )?
Also curious about the history of your rock. Could you have rock that was already saturated in phosphates and you're stuck with them leaching it until it's reduced...
Almost the same question on the sand..did you rinse it in tap water before adding it to the tank? It could have absorbed phosphates in doing that...

Considering the scope of the issue you have, you might want to consider getting 2 phosban reactors..one to put on the tank to get all the phosphates out (might take a while), and one to run on your make up water bucket so that you aren't continuing to add more during each water change. Just a thought...
I'd continue to frequently change the carbon as it does absorb phosphates too...just not at the rate the gfo will. Can't hurt

I never knew a phosphate discussion would be so heated lol ...

Try and think of it as passionate ..not heated
I feel for ya, must be hard to look at every day

 

[Chris5]

Kathy
Thanks for looking outside the box on the possible suspects .....
Today is even worse than yesterday ... more green .... and to make it worse my firefish passed on ...

Now it wasn't the conditions, it was merely that my other 2 fish were taking all the food and the firefish was barely eating the last couple of days ... being that i cut back on feedings to help control the issue ...

Anyway today is pretty bad and i am in the process of getting a phos reactor but alittle skeptical that it may not work (yes i know it won't work over night) but literally not help the situation ...

I would like to correct the problem without breaking down the tank, if at all possible ...


Now back to Kathy
You made me think about my start up and i used non live sand, and incidentally i did wash it in tap water, now i am hoping thats not the problem ... but also thought about seeding it with LS would that help? Most would probably jump on that but Kuyamark did the same and he doesnt have this issue

The rocks, i duno they were fully cured from a very reliable source but did go through a small die off period than came back with green and some purple coraline prior to the 2nd cloudy mess ...

Nothing has died that i don't know about and i am changing media every couple of days to speed it along ... i cant not feed so i am feeding scarcely ...

My lightning is down to like 5 hrs .... whats annoying is it really does in this situation get worse (to full potential) until it gets better ... well thats what happened last time anyway ...

 

[meschaefer]

sooo...he is dealing with one issue that is causing 2 effects and he needs to deal with both..the bacteria will eventually level itself out AFTER the algae (caused by the high phosphates) have been reduced enough to disppear once his phosphates are at a much lower level?

In that case, he wouldn't need to deal with both, dealing with the root cause, would work both problems out.

Also curious about the history of your rock. Could you have rock that was already saturated in phosphates and you're stuck with them leaching it until it's reduced...
Almost the same question on the sand..did you rinse it in tap water before adding it to the tank? It could have absorbed phosphates in doing that...

If that was the case, I would expect to see alage problems being limited to the sand bed/live rock. The fact that he has a free floating form of alage (i.e. his water is green) I would expect that the problem is probably related to something he is adding to the water. (i.e. phosphate laden water, food, etc. etc.)

 

[wxl14]

get your water somewhere else to see if it maybe is your water causing the issue go to and LFS that sells RO water and see if you could buy some do a water change and see how it goes. The only thing i could guess its that is something coming out of your RO I hope something works out for you. do you have a UV sterilizer if you do. What is the flow rate. If its to fast it will not kill bacteria. So you would have to slow it down. Just a few suggestions to look at good luck.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

When tanks become cloudy out of nowhere, without dosing anything, there are 2 main causes. White haze is attributed to bacterial blooms which can happen anytime nutrients spike and green is an algae bloom which can have a few triggers. Bacterial blooms usually go away on their own and doing water changes can sometimes prolong the bloom or even make it worse as you are removing the bacteria growing to help consume the new nutrient load. Bacterial blooms are normally a temporary situation in small or new tanks. Algae blooms are another story and can sometimes follow an initial bacterial bloom depending on what caused it initially. It's hard to figure out the root cause of these problems in most situations as most of the "victims" see it as a random event in the first place. It can be a simple dead fish stuck behind the rock or a chain of events. Unless you talk to the person or check out the tank for yourself it's hard to troubleshoot these.

 

[KathyC]

Chris..just one other thought..you can feed your fish! Who needs to feel guilty about near starving them with the rest of what you are dealing with! I understand you want to avoid the flake & pellet..and ensuing addition of the phosphates in them...so feed them mysis after you rinse the crud off of them.
Yes, a narrow diet but way better than feeling like you're starving them :splitspin

 

[Chris5]

Day 6:

Nothing new to report, oh yeah wait almost forgot Nemo jumped ... got home from dinner last night and he was on the rug! Got em back in an its a miracle he is still alive!

Greener than ever, running phosban in the filter until phos reactor arrives ...
Cleaning everything almost everyday ... seems like its at its worst now, so maybe it will start to go in the opposite direction sooner than later ...

Lights are on at min 4 -5 hrs ..:irked:

 

[KathyC]

Happy that Nemo got lucky & you came home when you did!!

What are you cleaning every day? Changing media?
If it's at it's worst now..then yes, it's very likely that the algae & bacteria will crash and clear.
I know you hate having your lights on such a short period but it might be better if you shut them off entirely for 2 days..then again leaving them on will encourage the algae to continue multiplying until it does crash...you could go either way!
If you're not getting monster algae on your rocks and it's confined to the water..I'd lean toward leaving them on..

I also wouldn't change the water at this point though you might want to throw an airline in there to up the oxygen since all that algae (and ensuing carbon dioxide) at night is possibly harming your fish and making them want to jump.

Put some eggcrate on the top of that thing!! lol

 

[Chris5]

Kathy

Yeah its just confined in the water, so i try and leave them on to a degree and its just the actinic on, the other 10ks look absolutely horrifying when on cause it exemplifies the green!

I have 3 power heads going one solely for breaking the surface of the tank to create more oxygen ... im changing the media every 24hrs ... thinking about putting a blanket over the tank tonight at lights out ...

Its heartbreaking to look at the tank in this condition ... and hopefully it will reach full potential asap and clear .....

The water change i was thinking about but skeptical that it might re-introduce a bloom back into the tank, but maybe a 10%-er might not be to bad of an idea ?

 

[KathyC]

eek! No blanket! less oxygen exhange!! Find a window screen..something, but don't stop air from getting to it.

I really, really think (ok..make that insist..) that you should add an airline..you could get a cheapie pump for $10..will cost less than replacing a fish...that algae is using up near all of your fishes oxygen at night, and it's only going to get worse before it gets better!

10ks look absolutely horrifying when on cause it exemplifies the green!

Kinda like a horror movie I'd bet! lol

I'd skip the water change as it might lengthen what is hapoening now. Let the bacteria & algae crash on their own. But DO be ready to do a water change when that happens!The extra air, phosban, carbon, low feeding rate should allow your fish & corals to be ok for now.

Someone asked on here somewhere what salt you are using...so?
If it's IO.. I'd get something different....I've been having huge algae issues since switching over to it...ya never know, I could have gotten a bad batch. Have now just changed to Coralife...

 

[Chris5]

you know its funny i had this happen before using Oceanic so :splitspin you got me what the deal is since i am using i/o... this is just unbelievable how crazy its getting ... feels like at this point with no lights is worse than with lights ... im at wits end and feel like starting over using some natural sea water or something and some new sand but like last time i tried that and it still came back (i guess it somehow stays in the tank even the slightest would do it all over again) and well i am trying to revert back to how long it took to clear 2 yrs ago ... :irked:

i think it was somewhere in the line of 2-3 weeks and than overnight literally half the tank cleared following 24hrs of complete clarity ... Funny thing is about that is it never came back again ...
Its a real head scratcher ... maybe my water was somewhat more stable after that (i.e no more phosphates/lower nitrates etc...) not that its even the slightest bad now, well maybe for the phosphates but thats my only option to try and control and if i can and it still stays green im flat out of ideas .. but im trying at this point even at 6 days ...

 

[NYreefNoob]

[Could you have rock that was already saturated in phosphates and you're stuck with them leaching it until it's reduced...
Almost the same question on the sand..did you rinse it in tap water before adding it to the tank? It could have absorbed phosphates in doing that...]
was thinking the same thing. and i have used algone before also, but after i figured my problem out. also how old are the bulbs you have ? on to the carbon and phosban, i run both all the time, might help if you do as well. the ro unit how old it is it ? have you tested the tds coming out of it ? or tested the water from ro for phos ect ? how about the bucket you use for water change's ? do you clean it after use ?

 

[wxl14]

I would go with swapping out sand and rock little by little to see if that helps. If thats even in your means. I know that would probably be the hardest test to do and most expensive but it might be a start to a clear tank.

 

[KathyC]

NYreefnoob..we've pretty much already look at all of the thoughts you had..except for one (I think)...
Chris, where do you keep your freshly made water? I know it is suggested that you either use salt buckets or Brute garbage cans since they are considered 'food safe' meaning nothing should be leaching out of the 'plastic' (before I get tagged on using the word plastic..I'm sure they are made of some poly carbonate something or other or petroleum based who-zit stuff) they are made of. I have no idea what, if anything, might be leaching into your water from whatever vessel you are using. Doubtful that is the cause, but it would make sense if it is the same vessel you used the last time you had this issue.

ok, back to your last comments...please try and wait it out a little while longer, you are probably near to the end of the algae outbreak..it can't last a whole lot longer since it's that GREEN now
Hang in there!

 

[Tonyscoots84]

I would of started ova by now..... chris I dun no how u didn't send the tank out da window. did u get my pm I sent u

 

[Chris5]

Tony,
Yeah got your pm thanks again bud, its been a busy week/weekend for myself but i def appreciate your concern! As with everyone else!

Its day 8 now nothing new, the good news is my fish are still alive and eating ...

As for the sand and rocks being saturated its a good initial thought and probably to some degree true too, but and i know each situation is always different and i can look back on the 65g when i did this and i did as everyone told me, tried the uv, tried starting all over, swapping out the sand, rocks etc ... 3 days later it came back even worse (somehow it was still in the system) thats why i am so skeptical and not motivated to do so to start all over ...

At some point it did clear, and never came back when i ignored it and kept the system bare, and barely had anything in the tank except some polypad/phospad and some algone ...

As for my fresh water mixed up i use a bucket, now its not a salt bucket, its a truvalue bucket from my basement (could this be an issue) don't know but i did clean it well prior ... my tds levels as mentioned i never checked them but the ro is about 4-6 mos old but recently about 1 month ago changed the filter/membranes ....

The lights are brand new and i am only running the actinics now for 4 hrs ...
Any inverts i have (cuc) are still alive which is also a good sign ... they usually are most sensitive ... but as i read doing research a green algae bloom is not harmful to fish unless there is a lack of oxygen ...

Im trying to hang in here, its not easy ... :irked:
Keep thinking that one morning i'll wake up and see the tank clear ...

 

[KuyaMark]

Bro to tell you the truth I believe its your water....When you had your 65 you had the same problem as you have now. Dude if I were you just spend the money on a 6 stage RO/DI unit like the one I have you're better off, your spending all this money on algone and phospad and its not doing anything. Just buy the phosphate reactor and a 6 stage RO/DI unit and you should be good.