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Anonymous

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beaslbob":1h9d5xeu said:
I particulary like this link from saltwater aquariums for dummies:

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dummies ... -PETS.html

which contains :

The sterility syndrome
The primary reason that people find algae to be a problem is associated with the sterility syndrome. Many new aquarists think that a sterile-looking aquarium is a clean and healthy aquarium, so they remove as much of the algae as they can at all times to keep it clean-looking. Well, this belief couldn't be further from the truth. Next time you go snorkeling or diving in the ocean, look closely at the rocks, coral, and sand: You'll see algae literally covering all the exposed surfaces.

Algae are an integral part of the natural coral reef ecosystem. Many species of fish and invertebrates feed exclusively on algae and some important species of algae actually live inside some invertebrates, providing them food. Don't succumb to the sterility syndrome. Get used to seeing algae and promoting algal growth in your aquarium, yet routinely removing some of it to maintain a clear view of your pets and to get rid of excess nutrients.

Bunch of bunk - Algae does not literally cover all the exposed surfaces on the reef. Trusting any of the 'dummy' books for more than a light introduction to any topic is a mistake.
Listen to everybody and be especially critical of anyone with easy answers that almost no one agrees with.
 
A

Anonymous

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my concern is simply that the lack of plant life will cause many losses especially in new tank.

Just as I experienced in my tank after a few months after adding a cleaner crew and not having additional plant life.


And just as this poster experienced after two years in this thread: http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... clown+dead

Ok so I have been in the hobby for about 2 years now. Started with a 29 gallon now have a 58 (been set up 1 year)and a 30 hex.
58 gallon: Several coral, 1 clown fish, cleaners, etc. live, sand, live rock. VHO 5.17 watts per gallon
29 gallon: 2 clown fish, live sand, and approx. 15 pounds of rock. no corals (this tank is fine. I hope I don't jinx it!)
1.024 salinity add supplments (iodine, calcium, etc)
Here is the deal:
Exactly one week ago I bought a cleaner pack from this site and a new baby clown from the LFS. Took them home and put it in the 58. (should have quarantined the baby I know but you know...)
Last saturday my corals started to look a bit down. I tested my water and all was well. Thought no big deal right? Well, it got worse from there. The corals looked worse the water got a yellow tent. Tested water everynight and nothing. Found one of the new peppermint sprimp dead on Tuesday when I got home from work so decided to change 10 gallons. Then, Wednesday morning found the new baby dead. .50 on the ammonia so changed 10 gallons more. I took the majority of my coral to my best friends house (she has 2 amazing tanks). My star polyp is looking really bad and my zoes aren't opening at all. The galaxia, frogspawn, and mushrooms are fine. My plate coral has not opened in about a week and half. This morning found my 1 1/2 year old clown dead.
 
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Anonymous

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I read your post and that whole linked thread and cannot figure out how you get that the inhabitants died from lack of plant life??? Am I missing something?
 
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Anonymous

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I don't see how you can that blame lack of plant life for that post.

Your concerns are great, but don't forget the tons of people who don't experience the losses you experienced when adding a cleaner crew and not having plant life.
 

Len

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What you experienced may or may not be caused by lack of plant life. You have no model in which to test this, but you seem so confident of the association.

I'm not sure what the experience of the poster you quoted has to do with your theory. (edit: I guess I'm not the only one confused :P)
 
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Anonymous

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Sure it could be many other things.

But these experiences are not unique.

In my case I added macros and did nothing else. daytime ph rose, one deteriorating fish recovered and is there 2.5 year later.

But in both cases, one possibility that can not be immediately ruled out is simply the cleaner crew did its job. And cleaned up a significant portion of the algae.

And the system deterioriated resulting in the losses.

Whereas if the fish had been added without the cleaner crew. The algae would not have been consumed. The plant life would still have been processing the tank including the extra bioload from the new fish.

My real concern is those factors are not being taught to people setting up new tanks. And newbies do add cleaner crews, reduce the algae, have nitrates, ph drops, and lose fish and tanks.
 

ChrisRD

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Bob, you really need to get some new material...

This is from the same article BTW:

"At some point your aquarium algae may get out of control. Excessive algae will literally choke an aquarium by consuming oxygen during the night and covering live corals. It will clog your filter system and obscure your vision by covering the walls of your tank. You can physically remove the excess algae, but this will only remove the symptom and not solve the problem."

"In most cases, excess algal growth is caused by a problem with nutrient levels. In other words, there is too much fertilizer in your tank! Now is the time to check your water chemistry. Start with the nitrate, and then check pH, carbonate hardness, and phosphate. Have you conducted routine water changes? Is your circulation and aeration adequate? Check your filtration, as well."

I fail to see where this article supports your husbandry advice.
 
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beaslbob":17g8i8f3 said:
My real concern is those factors are not being taught to people setting up new tanks.

New hobbiests that listen to the advice of experienced reefkeepers rarely have problems. You have one single failed reef to base your all of your opinions on and you have refused to follow the recommended path for new reefkeepers. You have nobody to blame for your many failures except yourself.

And newbies do add cleaner crews, reduce the algae, have nitrates, ph drops, and lose fish and tanks.

Yes, new hobbiests like yourself that refuse to follow the advice of experienced reefkeepers often have problems.
 

Aggie04

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Ok here is the plan (as of now). Recall this is a 30gal, 40lbs live sand, 20lbs fiji live rock.

Let tank cycle for another 3-4 weeks. Sometime I will get a Bakpak 2r skimmer. I will also probably get a little more live rock and some non-live to create more hiding places.

The proposed fish list:

1 Firefish
1 Pygmy Angel
1 6-stripe wrasse
1 dotty (either purple or striped)

Would that be too much? Could I put more in? I plan on doing frequent water changes (weekly). Would these fish work well together? If so, what order should they be introduced? I don't think any of them are overly aggressive. I would prefer a neon dotty, but it would probably cause trouble. If I could add one more, it would probably be a flame angel.

What about snails, etc? The plan is still FO, but would I need some sort of clean-up crew in there?

Advice/input appreciated!
 
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Anonymous

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I would recommend not having more that one Angel in there.

All else sounds great. Remember that Firefish are jumpers.

I've never had a Fish Only so look to someone else for advice on the Snails.
 
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Aggie04":grkwsgtx said:
Advice/input appreciated!

Weeell, since you asked, I will use this opportunity to discuss my favorite fish, the orchid dottyback. You mentioned you might want a purple dottyback, Pseudochromis porphyreus pictured below.

Pseudochromis_porphyreus.jpg



If you like the color purple and like dottybacks, the orchid dottyback, Pseudochromis fridmani may be for you. I think it has an even more vibrant color than the purple, and you can find them bred and raised in captivity. They have a reputation as being among the most docile of dottybacks as well, although individuals may vary of course, but the one I had was a model citizen even with smaller fish of similar appearance.

orchiddottyback.jpg


You can tell the difference between the purple and the orchid easily by the black stripe through the eye of the orchid.

This is just one of my all time fave fish so I thought I would throw that out for ya.

I think you have a nice fish selection. I would put the firefish in first I think as that is the most docile of your selection so it would be nice to let him feel at home before adding new tankmates.

You could probably put any kind of snail you wanted in there, and yes, do get some snails. [/i]
 
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Rikko":1t4xu53c said:
Got any test kits? You can track your cycle if you pick up an ammonia test.. Once your ammonia disappears your cycle is pretty well over (well, nitrite might be up a bit but it's not really problematic in saltwater in the concentrations we're likely to see) )

Any concentration of nitrite is just as poinsonous as ammonia in any concentration. Your levels for amm and nitrite should be zero. Your nitrates should end up being as low to zero as possible, but many people are in the 10-20 ppm range with no problems. Pick up all 3 test kits, as well as Ph and alkalinity.
 
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Aggie04":ikj7le3x said:
I just added 20lbs of liverock to my new 30g. It is starting to look like a real aquarium! I tested my water, and everything was dead-on except alkalinity, which was way high. As I understand, this is ok because the liverock will help bring it back to acceptable levels. Now it is time to wait, with occasional water tests to make sure everything is in line.

Alkalinity will not be put into place or adjusted by live rock. Alkalinity is the buffering of the water...it is what prevents pH swings.
Make sure you are mixing your water change water properly...24 hour mixing of it before you add it to tank etc. Also, since you are getting into this more, you may want to get a calcium test kit. pH, calcium and alkaliniy are all related. One will affect the other.
Test all 3 then post your results and we can help you get all 3 in check.
 
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Anonymous

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Easiest way to get your alk steady is by also doing proper water changes....You will need:
-1 cheap powerhead...like a rio 800 or a smaller maxi jet
-1 cheap heater around 100-150 watt
-1 cheap air pump and stone (somewhat optional)
-1 refractometer if you can...(hydrometers should be outlawed)
-5 gal or more bucket for the mixing), another bucket at 5 gal to make it easier to dump in the tank or you can use powerhead.
-salt mix
-good source water-no tap water unless its been tested
-a notepad to track all of your tests

1. fill bucket of any size about half with the water, then add appropriate salt for that amount ( i fill my 5 gal about 3gal worth, then with the instant ocean, I add 1.5 cups of salt) while stirring very well. (Salinity at the rate IO gives you will be around 1.022, thats too low, but more later about that)
Only add the salt to the water, never add water to the salt.

2. Finish adding your water to the bucket, then add appropriate salt again while mixing. At the rate IO gives you (1/2 cup per gallon) your salinity wil be around 1.022. This is when I add about 1/2 cup more to the water in addition to what I've added, and in a 5 gal scenario, it comes out to 1.025, which is about where you want to be.

3. Add powerhead to circulate and airstone to oxygenate (airstone is optional, i like it though)

4. cover and let circulate for around 24 hrs. A couple hours before you will use the replacement water, add the heater. Test salinity after water gets to targeted temperature, which for most is around 80. But acceptable range is around 77-82 give or take, varying opinions from many people.

5. Test salinity. If this is good, I suggest testing this water for ph and alkalinity and calcium and magnesium. This way you know the shortcomings of the mix. DO NOT ADD ANYHING TO THE REPLACEMENT WATER TO ADJUST except salt. It may cause a preciptaion event, which i learned the hard way one day If salinity is too high or too low, either add a little more salt or just unsalted water to adjust. If you must do this, let sit for a little while longer and circulate. Test salinity again.

6. Ready for the change? What I do, is I dump half of the 5gal into another 5 gal bucket, just to make it easier to handle the weight while pouring in. So that's why I have 2. And if you ave purchased a 10 gal mixing bucket or bigger, you could siphon out the water into the 5 gal bucket. You could also use the powerhead (thanks knowse) to pump the water into your tank instead of dumping it in.

7. Drain appropriate amount of water from your tank. Replace with new water.

8. Wait a few hours or so, then test your tank water. Given what you may know is lacking in your replacement water, plus the test on your tank water after replacement, this will give you a good idea what is needed.
Now you can add your b-ionic alk and calcium if needed and any other additives to the tank. Best to wait though to add anythig about 24 hrs and test then. But always test tank water before you add anything, and anything you add, do it slowly. Better to adjust over time than to try and quick fix things.
 
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Anonymous

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ctgretzky99":1n24lkym said:
Any concentration of nitrite is just as poinsonous as ammonia in any concentration. Your levels for amm and nitrite should be zero.

I agree levels should be zero. Any level of Nitrite indicates an instability in the system.

However, I don't believe Nitrite is any more toxic than Nitrate.
 
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Anonymous

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Guy...You are rarely wrong, and actually I haven't ever seen a post that was wrong by you...except this one. I have read several times that nitirtes are as bad as ammonia...here are 2 copy and pastes from websites:

" Definition: An extremely toxic nitrogenous substance formed by certain bacteria in the process of ammonia oxidation in the aquarium."


"Second stage: During this stage Nitrosomonas bacteria oxidize the ammonia, thus eliminating it. However, the by-product of ammonia oxidation is nitrite, which is also highly toxic to fish. Nitrites levels as low as low as 1 mg/l can be lethal to some fish "
 
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Anonymous

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I would be willing to put my science and research up against the author of the quotes at any time. :)
 
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Anonymous

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Guy":12h8fl7t said:
I would be willing to put my science and research up against the author of the quotes at any time. :)

lol...fair enough. Like I said, I have never seen you wrong, but I was making an educated guess base don readings....
Any idea why there would be several places I read that trites are as bad, or close to as bad as ammonia? Is it just a perpetuated theory that trites are as bad?
Thanks!
 
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Anonymous

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Maybe trites are lethal in freshwater. :?:
Maybe it's just an assumption propogated by author after author. 8O
Maybe I'm wrong. :oops:

There are a lot of myths still in the hobby that are simply authors quoting other authors and nobody ever did the research to find the truth.

If you do the research and prove me wrong then we'll both learn a lot 8)

Just FYI - Almost every book I have read on starting saltwater tanks state that Nitrite is highly toxic. A few even state that's it's more toxic than Ammonia. I still don't believe that it really is but it wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong.
 

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