System Stability
- Thread starter loismustdie
- Start date
- Location
- Baiting Hollow Long Island NY
Thats it
Keeping ones hand out of the tank is also important. We have oils and other compounds on our arms and hands that I believe inhibit the success of reef aquariums. Each time your removing some of the stability by placing your hand in the water.
If you have Acans, you can actually see them respond to the addition of your hand to the tank, their tenticles extend. If they can sense your hand then alot of "something" is being released to the water.
As for water changes I am a big fan of big water changes, as long as the added water is as close to the tanks water parameters as possible. Why not remove toxins as fast as possible?
If you have Acans, you can actually see them respond to the addition of your hand to the tank, their tenticles extend. If they can sense your hand then alot of "something" is being released to the water.
As for water changes I am a big fan of big water changes, as long as the added water is as close to the tanks water parameters as possible. Why not remove toxins as fast as possible?
Preface: I am not arguing against, or even trying to minimize the importance of water changes. I doubt you will find a succesfull aquarist who does not do regular water changes.
That being said, I can see a down side to removing "toxins" from the system as fast as possible. The bacterial populations in our tanks, and those living in symbosis in our corals often feed off of these toxins. There sudden removal, could cause a shift in their populations wich could easily impact upon the health of our corals. Especially if you have a tank, where there has not been a water change in quite sometime.
Conclusion: Regular, frequent waterchanges would aleviate this concern.
By toxins are you taking about phosphate/nitrate because that was what I was refering to? Because while it is true that bacteria use them, it is a catch22, since both inhibit coral growth (especially phosphate at low levels and SPS calcification). I personally want to get rid of them ASAP.
I think the shift from a water change of the bacterial population would be minimal even with a 100% water change. UNLESS your parameters are really out of whack from natural levels.
I think the shift from a water change of the bacterial population would be minimal even with a 100% water change. UNLESS your parameters are really out of whack from natural levels.
Yes that is what I was talking about. Didn't mean to say that they shouldn't be removed, only that there might be a down side to removing them to fast. That being said, I don't know for a fact that there would be a down side and I am willing to take your word on it.
I totally agree that water changes are the single most important thing we can do for the well being of our tanks. I change 20 g per week on my system and believe that if my water quality was great to start with, no negative effect will be felt. In doing so I am relenishing the elements, minerals, and other goodies in my salt mix.
I am also in complete agreement with Shaun regarding the impact of water changes on the bacteria in the tank...if your tank is healthy is no impact. If you haven't been doing water changes, start slowly and increase the gallons changed and frequency of the changes over time. This is not a zero to 60 in 5 seconds kind of hobby.
It's easy enough to match the temp, salinity and PH and I fail to understand why folks wouldn't be doing more of them on a regular basis.
______________________
That said I'm really here to post some info & pics on my ATO...this info was originally posted back in January..rather than a link, here is most of the original post:
The discussion was about float switches I had gotten from Aquahub..
I have these same float switches in my ATO system and they are mounted to brackets made from eggcrate. Two of the switches are in my fuge and the third is in the top off tank. Three switches are used so the fuge will neither underfill or overfill (one is mounted upside down & the other right side up) and the one in the top off tank is so the pump won't come on in the event that tank is too low on water.
The relay was used due to the safety concern. I used a small pump (if I recall it was about 120gph...actually a fountain pump) and a 12V power supply.
The power supply came from www.jcaquatics.com
It is the 12v adjustable power supply. Shipping from JC Aquatics gets to me overnight (same zone), city might be 2 days.
The instructions from Aquahub suggest a 9v 300ma power supply, but that is incorrect as the relay actually requires 12v so it doesn't prematurely die...just an FYI on that part!
Edited..
The system works great!! I use a 10 g tank for top off water and only have to refill once a week (on a 75g system w/30 g fuge).
1st pic shows how the bracket and how the switches 'sit' on the baffle in my fuge.
2nd pic is of the float switch mounted in my top off tank (the relay is wired to an extension cord
using heatshrink and it is out of the pic (and harms way!) to the right side of my top off tank.
The 3rd pic is a better view of how the 2 float switches are mounted in the bracket Psycho Graphic
made (that bracket was made for his tank, so it was done in black).
The top off water was plumbed using 1/2 pvc and goes directly into the last chamber of my fuge where my return pump is. When the tank requires replacement water the pump comes on for a very short period of time, and does so multiple times per day.
The top off tank is in the room next to where my tank is and sits on the floor inside of a cabinet. It rises about 18" up and then travels horizontally about 1 1/2 feet and back down into my sump.
The only downside to my system is when I forget to shut if off while doing a water change...and it keeps trying to refill that last chamber in the sump upon system start up. Aside from that ...I love this this thing!!
__________________
I am also in complete agreement with Shaun regarding the impact of water changes on the bacteria in the tank...if your tank is healthy is no impact. If you haven't been doing water changes, start slowly and increase the gallons changed and frequency of the changes over time. This is not a zero to 60 in 5 seconds kind of hobby.
It's easy enough to match the temp, salinity and PH and I fail to understand why folks wouldn't be doing more of them on a regular basis.
______________________
That said I'm really here to post some info & pics on my ATO...this info was originally posted back in January..rather than a link, here is most of the original post:
The discussion was about float switches I had gotten from Aquahub..
I have these same float switches in my ATO system and they are mounted to brackets made from eggcrate. Two of the switches are in my fuge and the third is in the top off tank. Three switches are used so the fuge will neither underfill or overfill (one is mounted upside down & the other right side up) and the one in the top off tank is so the pump won't come on in the event that tank is too low on water.
The relay was used due to the safety concern. I used a small pump (if I recall it was about 120gph...actually a fountain pump) and a 12V power supply.
The power supply came from www.jcaquatics.com
It is the 12v adjustable power supply. Shipping from JC Aquatics gets to me overnight (same zone), city might be 2 days.
The instructions from Aquahub suggest a 9v 300ma power supply, but that is incorrect as the relay actually requires 12v so it doesn't prematurely die...just an FYI on that part!
Edited..
The system works great!! I use a 10 g tank for top off water and only have to refill once a week (on a 75g system w/30 g fuge).
1st pic shows how the bracket and how the switches 'sit' on the baffle in my fuge.
2nd pic is of the float switch mounted in my top off tank (the relay is wired to an extension cord
using heatshrink and it is out of the pic (and harms way!) to the right side of my top off tank.
The 3rd pic is a better view of how the 2 float switches are mounted in the bracket Psycho Graphic
made (that bracket was made for his tank, so it was done in black).
The top off water was plumbed using 1/2 pvc and goes directly into the last chamber of my fuge where my return pump is. When the tank requires replacement water the pump comes on for a very short period of time, and does so multiple times per day.
The top off tank is in the room next to where my tank is and sits on the floor inside of a cabinet. It rises about 18" up and then travels horizontally about 1 1/2 feet and back down into my sump.
The only downside to my system is when I forget to shut if off while doing a water change...and it keeps trying to refill that last chamber in the sump upon system start up. Aside from that ...I love this this thing!!
__________________
- Location
- Baiting Hollow Long Island NY
I am going to throw something out here just for the hell of it even though probably everyone will disagree with. I believe most reef tanks are too sterile. (oh no, he's nuts, he must be senile.):scratchch
I will have to explain that. In the sea there are uncountable microscope lifeforms that are just about impossable to see without a microscope. Not just bacteria which I will get back to but amphipods, copepods, worms, and unicellular organisms. For almost 40 years I have been collecting amphipods along with other "things" under rocks on muddy beaches to use in my reef. I collect these things by taking porous rocks out of the mud and swishing them in a pail of seawater to collect whatever falls off. After removing the baby crabs, jellyfish etc I just dump this mixture in my reef. I know all about paracites and diseases and I have never had a problem doing this. I think this stuff makes the tank healthier. I once had a brutalid fish that lived 18 years until I accidently killed it and in all those years I never fed it, not once. It ate something and the only thing in the tank that it could have been eating was the offspring from these animals.
Getting back to bacteria, we as aquarists tend to think there are three types. Yes we have bacteria to convert ammonia and other bacteria for nitrate and even a third for nitrate but there are many different types of bacteria that do this and they are found in seawater. If you only have ASW and you only put items in your tank from a LFS then, yes you have three types of bacteria and the strain you have may not be the most efficient type there is. I think we need to diversify and add products from the sea. To many people this will sound wierd but where do you think our animals come from?
Have a great day.
Paul:tank:
I will have to explain that. In the sea there are uncountable microscope lifeforms that are just about impossable to see without a microscope. Not just bacteria which I will get back to but amphipods, copepods, worms, and unicellular organisms. For almost 40 years I have been collecting amphipods along with other "things" under rocks on muddy beaches to use in my reef. I collect these things by taking porous rocks out of the mud and swishing them in a pail of seawater to collect whatever falls off. After removing the baby crabs, jellyfish etc I just dump this mixture in my reef. I know all about paracites and diseases and I have never had a problem doing this. I think this stuff makes the tank healthier. I once had a brutalid fish that lived 18 years until I accidently killed it and in all those years I never fed it, not once. It ate something and the only thing in the tank that it could have been eating was the offspring from these animals.
Getting back to bacteria, we as aquarists tend to think there are three types. Yes we have bacteria to convert ammonia and other bacteria for nitrate and even a third for nitrate but there are many different types of bacteria that do this and they are found in seawater. If you only have ASW and you only put items in your tank from a LFS then, yes you have three types of bacteria and the strain you have may not be the most efficient type there is. I think we need to diversify and add products from the sea. To many people this will sound wierd but where do you think our animals come from?
Have a great day.
Paul:tank:
I don't think anyone would disagree with you on what you are saying Paul. As a matter of fact, more would agree with you. Many of us (Shaun, being the man with the means to research) feel our tanks are actually starving.
You are seeking methods to provide some type of sustenance to your tank (a very interesting, yet very ballsy technique) as many of us are as well (pappone, phyto, pods, etc.)
Not sure if this point has anything to do with stability though. Have you thought of bringing this point up in the Italian Method thread.
Kathy, very cool set up.
You are seeking methods to provide some type of sustenance to your tank (a very interesting, yet very ballsy technique) as many of us are as well (pappone, phyto, pods, etc.)
Not sure if this point has anything to do with stability though. Have you thought of bringing this point up in the Italian Method thread.
Kathy, very cool set up.
ive read this all very interesting...but i have the italian fundsalow desease
and i keep it simple i just pour the 5 gallon bucket in there for top off
"sploosh"......lol................................................but im willing to experiment...i think ill follow jacksons methed his tank looks great...i think the key here is patience..and the knowledge,some of these simple teqniques are simple for some people and somthing so simple can be challenging or mind boggling with cunfusion..such as for myself...and also
most of this stuff we buy lives togather in the same ocean and some
stuff doesnt do well togather...you have to know whats going in your tank and what its care is...we all have different tanks..? question is what works
for one tank is it gonna work for yours..........?
and i keep it simple i just pour the 5 gallon bucket in there for top off
"sploosh"......lol................................................but im willing to experiment...i think ill follow jacksons methed his tank looks great...i think the key here is patience..and the knowledge,some of these simple teqniques are simple for some people and somthing so simple can be challenging or mind boggling with cunfusion..such as for myself...and also
most of this stuff we buy lives togather in the same ocean and some
stuff doesnt do well togather...you have to know whats going in your tank and what its care is...we all have different tanks..? question is what works
for one tank is it gonna work for yours..........?
Paul, I wish you were able to hear Shauns presentation today at the frag swap. It was on what you just wrote about.
His initial research shows that NSW has tens times the amount of bacteria compared to our tanks. Will we be adding a new piece of bacteria culturing equipment to our tanks soon :scratchch not everyone can collect sea mud
:lol:
His initial research shows that NSW has tens times the amount of bacteria compared to our tanks. Will we be adding a new piece of bacteria culturing equipment to our tanks soon :scratchch not everyone can collect sea mud
:lol:
- Location
- Baiting Hollow Long Island NY
Actually I have been bringing this up for years. I put it on the System Stability thread because I believe it has a lot to do for stability.
In over three decades my tank has never crashed, it may have something to do with the amount or types of bacteria. My tank is too clean now because I had a problem due to something else and I had to clean it better than I like to. I can tell the difference immediately, it really needs an infusion of mud and the creatures associated with it. The stuff is free, for people living near the sea anyway which includes anyone near Manhattan. We are surrounded by muddy beaches. I even experimented with a tray of Long Island Sound mud once. The life in our waters is of course not tropical but much of it lives for many months and it seems to be beneficial. I can't tell if it is from the bacteria or the other fauna.
I diden't hear Shaun's presentation but I wish I had.
In a week or two I will be going to the marina to work on my boat. I will do some collecting then.
Have a great day.
Paul
In over three decades my tank has never crashed, it may have something to do with the amount or types of bacteria. My tank is too clean now because I had a problem due to something else and I had to clean it better than I like to. I can tell the difference immediately, it really needs an infusion of mud and the creatures associated with it. The stuff is free, for people living near the sea anyway which includes anyone near Manhattan. We are surrounded by muddy beaches. I even experimented with a tray of Long Island Sound mud once. The life in our waters is of course not tropical but much of it lives for many months and it seems to be beneficial. I can't tell if it is from the bacteria or the other fauna.
I diden't hear Shaun's presentation but I wish I had.
In a week or two I will be going to the marina to work on my boat. I will do some collecting then.
Have a great day.
Paul
I see what you're saying Paul. Very cool. Interesting.
Neptune, none of these methods are required to have a successful tank. These are just techniques which would help reduce you having to do the stuff and it would provide a more stable environment through consistency throughout the day rather than big shifts at once.
Neptune, none of these methods are required to have a successful tank. These are just techniques which would help reduce you having to do the stuff and it would provide a more stable environment through consistency throughout the day rather than big shifts at once.
You can just buy a drop bucket like kent makes and do manual dosing and top off at a slow rate with virtually no negative impacts.
I mix my kalk and ro (sometimes calc) and out it into a 3 gallon bucket and have it drip all night. Works just fine nad I think I paid $10.00 for the bucket.
I mix my kalk and ro (sometimes calc) and out it into a 3 gallon bucket and have it drip all night. Works just fine nad I think I paid $10.00 for the bucket.
Don't waste your time & calcium by adding calcium to kalkwasser.
What your grandmother never told you about lime
Excerpt: Aquarists frequently ask if they can mix other additives into their limewater. For some additives, the answer is clearly no. These include magnesium (which precipitates as magnesium hydroxide), calcium (which limits the dissolution of calcium hydroxide), and alkalinity supplements (which will precipitate as calcium carbonate).
What your grandmother never told you about lime
Excerpt: Aquarists frequently ask if they can mix other additives into their limewater. For some additives, the answer is clearly no. These include magnesium (which precipitates as magnesium hydroxide), calcium (which limits the dissolution of calcium hydroxide), and alkalinity supplements (which will precipitate as calcium carbonate).
- Location
- Franklin Lakes, NJ
This thread holds as true today as it did three years ago.
Bump for all the newbies.
Bump for all the newbies.
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