3 STRIKES, I'M OUT

[Green Lantern]

Unless you purchase only captive propogated species, never buy from establishments that sell or trade wild caught specimines, never have a single specimine die, have a tank that is large enough to cover each of your specimines natural range, provide water parameters that match each of your species natural ranges, provide the proper diet for each species, keep only compatible species and provide the proper lighting then you have no chance of taking "the moral high ground"

Unless I follow this regiment I can't argue that there is a minimum tank size for certain species or some species shouldn't be kept? It isn't that black and white. I am not trying to take high moral ground and do not think, for instance, Chris is a bad guy by any means. I just don't agree with him on this issue and wanted to be on record. I know you weren't pointing a finger at me in particular but I did want to address your point. I do see the point your making I just think it is way too broad.

 

[murrayjim]

Green Lantern
I'm not sure that Chris isn't doing anything "scientific". Not even sure what that means. Is he standing in front of his tank in a lab coat? Probably not, but I think that by sharing his experiences it certainly contributes to the pool of knowledge that is used for scientific research. As SPC points out, "Eric Borneman.....he did ask qualified (proven) people to help him." Proven??
As far as the comparision you make, not sure that even relates to what we were talking about.( It's not smart to play in the highway either, what's the point?)
Chris might be a yahoo or even ignorant, as you and strikethree have stated, but to me, it sounds like he knows what he is talking about, I'm sure his success was more then luck. Looks like he did a little homework before he bought his fish, and we seem to forget that he has had success for 3 plus years. Why continue to beat a dead horse...?esmithiii
I agree, same point I was trying to make earlier. I'll let you respond to GL on his last post...Moral high ground and disagreement, the same or different?

 

[Green Lantern]

Murrayjim, I get the feeling from the tone of your post that you want to keep stirring things up here. If you can't understand what I was talking about in the post I can't help you there. If Chris had truly done his research he'd have gone with the odds and not stocked the way he did. He chose to try something and it has worked out. He beat the odds. I am not making this up. It is not just an assumption on my part. As for digging up the ignorance thing; I made an assumption that he was just trolling. I quickly apologized. I'm also a member on RC and have seen him there many times.

Why don't we just get it out in the open. How many tangs do you think belong in a 4' tank? What are your experiences with this species of fish? What research have you done? How long have you been on the boards reading about people wondering why their tangs are sick?

 

[esmithiii]

Is beating a dead horse ethical treatment of animals?

Expressing that you feel that a tang won't do well in a specific size tank is one thing. Using language like "it is wrong...", "I am outraged...", "That guy ought to be arrested...", "inhumane", etc is what I am talking about.

E

 

[ging]

After this unbelievable long post... and wondering if a post has a limit on how many entries you can put on it

I would like to say that I'm glad that naesco has come back to reefs.org

ging

 

[chris1]

SPC,

First of all, I havent been back to Reef Central in a day or two because I was in a car accident Thursday night. That is why I havent responded to that post. I just quickly stopped in to check what was going on with this thread.

Secondly, I think you need to take a look at where the insults started on the thread in question.

It wasnt with me. After my first post which wasnt attacking anyone. Green Lantern said something to the effect of "why do you display your ignorance on a BB" or something like that. That is what got me rolling.

You are one funny dude, you sure like to twist things and stir things up dont you? In your last post you say: "and yet you come here and say that people in "general" are fools who disagree with your methods. " That is not what was being said at all. What I was saying was that it is amazing how when someone reports a success that someone doesnt agree with they rush to prove them wrong, even when they have pictures of their success story.

You say "As far as experienced reefers, I look to the people with not only years of
experience, but also those who can back up their methodologies under peer review. " Ok, I have both, so now am I an experienced reefer? Or still not because you dont agree with my methods. Im sure its the latter.

This has gotten very old, Im not wasting my time with it any more.

If no one ever tried anything different than what the majority of people said you "cant do", then we would still be using undergravel filters, and no one would be keeping SPS, etc, etc, etc, etc. Im not advocating a person new to the hobby without any experience or knowlege throwing a fruitsalad of critters in their tank willy nilly. I do think that an experienced and studied person who has the resources to correct a situation if it goes awry should give something a try if they think they can make it work. That is how this hobby advances. When I put those tangs in my tank I was fully aware of what people said about them. I had done a ton of reading about the subject. That is part of the reason for me searching for months for VERY young tangs. I lierally searched for 9 months for the purple until I found one young enough. When I put them together, I was fully ready to remove one of them from the tank if I saw a serious problem. There was never a serious problem, and I believe that is because of the age of the tangs when introduced into the tank.

Anyway, happy reefing.

c

 

[SPC]

I will agree to disagree.
Happy reef keeping to you.
Sincerely,
Funny Dude

 

[EmilyB]

naesco, a Canadian Ice....cheers !!

 

[Green Lantern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>Is beating a dead horse ethical treatment of animals?

E</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is funny! Best post I've read.

 

[murrayjim]

GL
I didn't forget about you and will reply to your numerous questions tomorrow. I'm in the middle of building a surge device.

 

[chris1]

SPC,

That is twice that you have made comments about me "not backing it up with the 10 and over crowd at Reef Central", or that I "backed off" some how on the recent Mixed Tangs thread.

I posted my experience, in the next post someone said they didnt agree, and I posted again and gave my reasoning. Then no one else said anything else about it. How is that not backing it up?

After that, there was nothing left to say.

c

 

[SPC]

Chris, the thread on RC was not a true test of your methods with the 10 and over group. A much better way to have your methods looked at as main stream would be to start a thread explaining what you have done and ask this group what they think. I also noticed on that thread, if my memeory serves me, that you said you would not recommend this method to anyone else, that statement alone, as you know, is going to greatly reduce the chances of anyone questioning you. Also your attitude was entirely different on RC than it was when you came here with both guns blazing. One of the statements you made in that first post here was "have a look at my 3 unhealthy Tangs, Yellow, Purple, and Hippo in my 90 gallon tank", you said nothing about I would not recommend this method. If I would have looked at those posts on the two different boards and not seen the name, I would have thought it was 2 different posters.
Ok, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability, I am not questioning that you have your tank stocked the way you say, and just like you I would'nt recommend this stocking plan to anyone else. If you wish to discuss this any further, e mail me.

Funny Dude

 

[EmilyB]

SPC, where is your website ? I seem to be unable to access it. Actually, quite often I find that with some of the posters...no email, no website, why is that ?

 

[SPC]

EmilyB, thanks for you concern, I will try to answer your 2 questions.
1. You most likely can't find "some" posters web sites because they don't have one, that is definitely my case.
2. My e mail is at the top under send a private e mail. I presume this works as others have used it in the past.
You asked "why is this", I hope that I explained that above.
Steve

 

[chris1]

SPC,

"A much better way to have your methods looked at as main stream would be to start a thread explaining what you have done and ask this group what they think."

Why would I want to ask anyone what they think about my methods. Obviously I already know they are not mainstream. That is the whole point. Now posting a message like that would definitely be a troll.

Also as far as me not recommending it to people. I dont recommend it in general (placing a purple and a yellow together). In fact I said the same thing in my posts on this board. I said, that I wasnt advising anyone to do this. However, I do think it could be replicated by placing very young tangs together. I do recommend that a tang can be placed happily in a tank under 180 gallons though, although I probably wouldnt go under 75 gallons.

c

 

[murrayjim]

jdeets
If you think that they're fish are happy in a 180, imagine how happy they would be in a 300 gallon, or even happier in a 1000 gallon. Like you say you don't realize you're not giving them a good home until you do. I think we all "realize" the fish would be much happier in the ocean.

GL
I'm not trying to stir things up, I'm trying to get you to see how flawed your argument is. If I understand your argument, it is that you do not agree agree with Chris on the "issue". If the "issue" is that you can not mix tangs, then Chris has proved you wrong. If you think he got "lucky" and "beat the odds", then you have an unsubstantiated opioion (to my knowledge you have not tried Chris' method of keeping tangs, nor have you given any "scientific" data based on his method to disprove it).
If the "issue" is you shouldn't mix tangs then that brings up the ethical question which has already been addressed several times in this thread. What is it that you disagree with?
As far as my own experience, since you asked, I have never kept a yellow and purple tang together, but I have no doubt that it can be done. Research? Nothing more then reading and speaking with others in the hobby. I kept 2 tangs, Chevron and blue, in a 55 gallon which just happened to be 4 feet, so I guess I would have to say you can keep at least two in a tank that long. BTW they were so happy I could see little smiles on their faces every morning.

When I upgraded tanks (over a year ago) I removed the tangs and just recently added a powder blue to my tank, which is 100 gallons (5 feet long).
To answer what I hope will be your last question, I have been around long enough to see a few Tang threads and I think what is worse then the question, "why is my tang dying?", are some of the response's.

 

[jdeets]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naesco:
<STRONG>
If you enjoy a cockfight place one purple tang into a small (however you define it)tank with a yellow. One will win and one will lose(it will be killed or stressed to the point that ich surfaces and it dies anyways). That is my experience.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I'll share my tang experiences. I have two yellow tangs and a purple in my 180. I loved the purple and my roomie loved the yellow. I did my research and learned that three or more of the same genus will usually work, while having only two Z. tangs in the same tank was asking for trouble.

I initially placed the two yellows and the purple simultaneously in a 115G tank. There was always some sparring in the 115, but nothing serious. I never had any ich but the purple did develop a light case of lymphocystis.

A three months after placing the tangs I upgraded to a 180 gallon system. As soon as they went into the 180, the lymphocystis began improving and completely resolved in about 4 weeks. I have yet to see any of the Z. tangs pick on each other or even "tail off" since the move into the larger tank. They now all have well-established "houses" in and around the LR in different locations.

In retrospect, the 115 was too small for all of them, and thus the sparring and lymphocystis. I can see that now because I can see how much better things are in the larger tank. If I hadn't been in a position to upgrade to a 180, I might still think they were doing fine in the 115.

I'm not sure of the point of my post, except that sometimes people don't realize that they're not giving their fishes a good home until they actually do give them a good home and see what a difference it makes. FWIW

 

[davelin315]

Wow, this is a busy post, so I figure I'll throw my 2 cents in (although I haven't read all of the entries, so I'm not totally clear on the subject, althought it seems to be tangs and ethical reef keeping). As far as keeping tangs, I've had remarkable luck with my two yellow tangs. I've had them for around 8 years I think, and they never seem to do more than posture with each other. Once in a while, they'll nip at each other, but for the most part, they hang out together and seem to enjoy each other's company. I have yet to put a similarly shaped tang in with them, and I probably never will, because whatever luck I've had, I don't want to push it. As far as the moralistic part of this thread, if you don't raise your own fish, then you're pretty much in the same boat as everyone else. I buy my fish wherever they're cheapest. And, if you have a friendly pet shop owner, ask them where they get their fish, because most stores will pool orders to save on shipping, so you're probably buying the same livestock from one store to the next within a 3-4 hour radius from your major airport. If you really want to find out the quality of your livestock, go to their garbage heap (a trick from a friend who wanted to find out just how much the markup is on a marine fish, it's around 1000% if you're curious) and look for their shipping boxes. The shipping label will have their supplier on it, and then you'll know if they're really getting "red sea" fish or "sea of cortez" or "bali" or whatever they claim, or if they're getting cyanided stuff from the Phillipines. After close to 12 years of being in this hobby, I've killed my share of fish and corals, and each time I'm unsuccessful, I learn a little bit, and file away my thoughts on what's right and what's wrong. Learn from your mistakes and do the research and no one can call you an unethical enthusiast when you fail.

 

[Ayres]

davelin315:

Let me guess.. YOU'VE never actually gone LFS garbage surfing, you're just trusting what your friend has told you to be true. First of all:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

a trick from a friend who wanted to find out just how much the markup is on a marine fish, it's around 1000% if you're curious

That little gem is utter BS.. I hate generalizations, and that was a perfect one!At my store, if we marked up Marine Fish 1000% we wouldn't be in business long. Would you like to pay $700CDN for a Purple tang? How about $1200 for a large emperor angel? Furthermore, I don't know many LFSes that will throw out packing invoices that come with orders. And from experience, they don't write the type and cost of fish on packing boxes.

Also:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

The shipping label will have their supplier on it, and then you'll know if they're really getting "red sea" fish or "sea of cortez" or "bali" or whatever they claim, or if they're getting cyanided stuff from the Phillipines

Not a lot of suppliers put their names on their boxes. Also not many LFSes buy fish direct from bali or the red sea, etc. They buy from a wholesaler or transhipper, who will clean any names off of the boxes so that the LFS won't know THEIR suppliers. Most wholesalers stock fish from the red sea, bali, hawaii, etc. And once again, they don't write the name and country of origin of fish on the box.

It's also illegal to go through a persons garbage. [where i live anyway] If I caught you behind my store in my garbage trying to find out information about my suppliers, you wouldn't make it far. The reason it's illegal? The same reason why it's illegal to discuss what you hear while listening to a phone scanner. It's privelaged information.

-Ayres

 

[Green Lantern]

If you think he got "lucky" and "beat the odds", then you have an unsubstantiated opioion (to my knowledge you have not tried Chris' method of keeping tangs, nor have you given any "scientific" data based on his method to disprove it).

I have not tried Chris' method because I have no desire to tempt fate with stocking choices known to be chancy at best. I'm not going to argue this point anymore as someone mentioned above we've beat this horse well past humane. I'll stick to the experts' advice and long time hobbyists' experience. Again this isn't a question of can it be done but should it be done. I'm out.