Tang Growth
- Thread starter marinelife
- Start date
Hello everyone,
Amazing that this whole discussion of how you cant keep tangs healthy in a smaller tank all started from a smaller tank owner basically saying, Hey take a look at these pictures of how healthy my tang is.
Funny how immediately people rushed to prove his pictures wrong.
Have a look at my 3 unhealthy tangs, Yellow, Purple, and Hippo in my 90 gallon tank.
www.humansreef.cjb.net
c
Amazing that this whole discussion of how you cant keep tangs healthy in a smaller tank all started from a smaller tank owner basically saying, Hey take a look at these pictures of how healthy my tang is.
Funny how immediately people rushed to prove his pictures wrong.
Have a look at my 3 unhealthy tangs, Yellow, Purple, and Hippo in my 90 gallon tank.
www.humansreef.cjb.net
c
Chris, how long have you kept those three tangs together? Those two Zebrasoma species aren't likely to get along as they get older. I know; yours are doing fine. What kind of example is that though? Hi I have two tangs that when kept together there is a really good chance they will kill one another. What is that? What are you contributing? Why bother posting your ignorance on a BB?
Wow GL,
Whos showing the ignorance here. The Yellow and the Purple tangs have lived together for 3 1/2 years. The Hippo has been with them for about 1 1/2 years.
The whole point of my post is that this entire thread has turned into an ignorant rambling mess.
Your post just proved it.
Thanks,
c
Whos showing the ignorance here. The Yellow and the Purple tangs have lived together for 3 1/2 years. The Hippo has been with them for about 1 1/2 years.
The whole point of my post is that this entire thread has turned into an ignorant rambling mess.
Your post just proved it.
Thanks,
c
Steve, know the feeling I'm creeping up on your age, just 4 years behind
. Of course I understand that you are not flamming me and entitled to your opinions and vice versa as we all see things differently.
Asking tough questions and I will stick my neck out on the chopping block
.
1: This is true as most angels are expensive, but there are cheap & very delicate angels ~ Singapore angel, that require the swimming space. You are correct
with regard to price as most people are buying on impulse / cost. Additional factor is that Tangs are generally more gregarious then angels and quickly catch the attention of buyers. This also ties into my comment about the ability to chose a healthy fish.
2: Bring in the proverbial "shark egg" issue
. What to do with any fish that has outgrown its environment is a tough one....just as taking back a fish thats too aggressive for your tank to the lfs and subjected to associated problems. But lfs is one place to exchange fish, friends with larger tanks, local public aquariums, etc.. Its tough to answer and leads to a nasty repetitive circle. Just saying that the enjoyment of keeping tangs/angels can be done in smaller tanks. Shark eggs should only be kept by experienced aquarists living next to that species natural environment.
3: No not really since both marine and fresh fish will become stunted in tanks. Some species will become deformed, some stressed, and the majority adapt to their new environment leading healthy lives. Just trying to point out that the fish are not going to out grow their tanks within a very short timeframe. Majority of the aquarium maintained fishes are generally subjected to other factors that contribute to stunting, overgrowth and / or environmental stress just from captivity
4: I was only giving my interpretation of various postings of certain tang species per volume of water. In 300 gallons you could easily keep a few tangs fat & happy!.
Just trying to show that tangs can be maintained in smaller volumes of water, living healthy lives and providing enjoyment to their owners.
I understand your point very well, maybe even more since I considered quite a few more fish families that are unsuitable for aquariums. But I also realize that we like to maintain these beautiful critters to the best of our abilities, and tank size for most tangs or angels is a minor concern against water parameters, filtration capacity, etc.
Not even going to get involved in that can of worms regarding fish & feelings, leading to why keep fish captive, water volume as the cows will be awfull fat by the time they come in from pasture
.
Joe
Asking tough questions and I will stick my neck out on the chopping block
1: This is true as most angels are expensive, but there are cheap & very delicate angels ~ Singapore angel, that require the swimming space. You are correct
with regard to price as most people are buying on impulse / cost. Additional factor is that Tangs are generally more gregarious then angels and quickly catch the attention of buyers. This also ties into my comment about the ability to chose a healthy fish.
2: Bring in the proverbial "shark egg" issue
3: No not really since both marine and fresh fish will become stunted in tanks. Some species will become deformed, some stressed, and the majority adapt to their new environment leading healthy lives. Just trying to point out that the fish are not going to out grow their tanks within a very short timeframe. Majority of the aquarium maintained fishes are generally subjected to other factors that contribute to stunting, overgrowth and / or environmental stress just from captivity
4: I was only giving my interpretation of various postings of certain tang species per volume of water. In 300 gallons you could easily keep a few tangs fat & happy!.
Just trying to show that tangs can be maintained in smaller volumes of water, living healthy lives and providing enjoyment to their owners.
I understand your point very well, maybe even more since I considered quite a few more fish families that are unsuitable for aquariums. But I also realize that we like to maintain these beautiful critters to the best of our abilities, and tank size for most tangs or angels is a minor concern against water parameters, filtration capacity, etc.
Not even going to get involved in that can of worms regarding fish & feelings, leading to why keep fish captive, water volume as the cows will be awfull fat by the time they come in from pasture
Joe
Chris isn't a troll, he's an RC and Aqualink member and also a member of our Cincinnati Reefkeeper's Society.
I have seen his tank many times and despite the odds, his yellow and Purple get along fabulously. He had the Purple since it was the size of a half dollar. The Hippo is small and he has plans to upgrade in the future. Now I'm not recommending the arrangement to anyone; his Tangs have grown up together and follow each other around the tank. They are all fabulously healthy and appear to me to have plenty of swimming room.
Just another way of doing things. Some people like to have fish in their tanks along with the corals and although many may disagree with what he has setup, it works well for him and it looks great and the fish are well cared for. It's also just another instance of an aquarium with tangs that do not have ich (that isn't a 400 gallon plus sized behemoth).
I have seen his tank many times and despite the odds, his yellow and Purple get along fabulously. He had the Purple since it was the size of a half dollar. The Hippo is small and he has plans to upgrade in the future. Now I'm not recommending the arrangement to anyone; his Tangs have grown up together and follow each other around the tank. They are all fabulously healthy and appear to me to have plenty of swimming room.
Just another way of doing things. Some people like to have fish in their tanks along with the corals and although many may disagree with what he has setup, it works well for him and it looks great and the fish are well cared for. It's also just another instance of an aquarium with tangs that do not have ich (that isn't a 400 gallon plus sized behemoth).
I apologize for thinking you were a troll Chris. With the way this thread had gone and then seemed to turn into a half way decent discussion I just presumed it was someone with one post trying to make sure it didn't gain some kind of legitimacy. I see now that 6_line might have notified you to share your expierence with us.
Steve
Steve
I give up. Tangs belong where ever we decide to keep them no matter what experience teaches us. Everytime a thread like this pops up there is always someone that says, "I'm doing it and it is fine." What the real question you should ask yourself is: should I do it? The answer is no. Plain and simple.
Chris you have my apologies, my post was rude. I still completely disagree with you and think that if you don't have problems you will or you're lucky. I didn't think the hobby was about playing roulette with our livestock's lives.
Chris you have my apologies, my post was rude. I still completely disagree with you and think that if you don't have problems you will or you're lucky. I didn't think the hobby was about playing roulette with our livestock's lives.
Here is my .02, not worth much I know. Im no marine biologist or anything. But I have done alot of studying on the subject.
The 2 main factors in the daily migration of an animal are Food Source, and Predation. They do not have feelings, and reasoning like we do to say "hey Im going to travel several miles today for a change of scenery". They move to find food and avoid predators.
Tangs in the wild might swim several miles during the day, but we all know that tangs are a grazing fish. So swimming that far no doubt is partially due to finding good food. Second part of that equation is staying away from predators.
Now, what happens to that fish in the ocean when you take away all predators, and they have a good food source in one location. Do they still swim like that. My opinion is no.
2 examples.
The Hummingbird. During the day a hummingbird will fly many miles to find enough food to keep it going. If I place a hummingbird feeder in my back yard. Even though they still have full ability to travel wherever they want, they will remain in the general vacinity of my house. Because I have taken away their main ingredient that makes them travel.
Or take for example the Stingrays and Sharks in the carribean where diving tours take tourists out to "Feed the Rays and Sharks". Normally these fish will swim miles for food. Predation is not to much of an issue for them because they are pretty much the top of the food chain. Well, because these Sharks and Rays know that there is an easy meal there they hang around these places now waiting for food. Even though they have the whole ocean to swim in they choose to hang out pretty much in one place waiting for the easy meal.
My .02.
c
The 2 main factors in the daily migration of an animal are Food Source, and Predation. They do not have feelings, and reasoning like we do to say "hey Im going to travel several miles today for a change of scenery". They move to find food and avoid predators.
Tangs in the wild might swim several miles during the day, but we all know that tangs are a grazing fish. So swimming that far no doubt is partially due to finding good food. Second part of that equation is staying away from predators.
Now, what happens to that fish in the ocean when you take away all predators, and they have a good food source in one location. Do they still swim like that. My opinion is no.
2 examples.
The Hummingbird. During the day a hummingbird will fly many miles to find enough food to keep it going. If I place a hummingbird feeder in my back yard. Even though they still have full ability to travel wherever they want, they will remain in the general vacinity of my house. Because I have taken away their main ingredient that makes them travel.
Or take for example the Stingrays and Sharks in the carribean where diving tours take tourists out to "Feed the Rays and Sharks". Normally these fish will swim miles for food. Predation is not to much of an issue for them because they are pretty much the top of the food chain. Well, because these Sharks and Rays know that there is an easy meal there they hang around these places now waiting for food. Even though they have the whole ocean to swim in they choose to hang out pretty much in one place waiting for the easy meal.
My .02.
c
SteveNichols
"I still don't know about a tang in my tank, a whole day has passed and my tank is still 100 gal."
Think about those poor tangs in lfs looking for a great home with good water quality, abundant food and minimal stresses
.
1: With that price I hope they are really good looking Tangs & Angels! Yes you are correct in that the angel is a better selection for your 100 gallon - ONLY based on your size description of the two fish types. I also agree that people buy fish based on color first and then price, and generally don't consider husbandry requirements.
2: Good comment, and yes those types really boil the blood!. I haven't found the secret to easy fish removal from reef tanks yet
!.
3: If you mean will the fish become stunted as compared to wild existence, then yes, since captivity has removed alot of external stimulus (predation, climate, hormonal, etc).
There is numerous research information regarding fish / invertebrate growth rates, deformities, diseases, etc. in various aquaculture literature (not just aquarium related). Numerous species of shrimp, seaweeds-macroalgaes and fish (catfish, tilapia, salmoniods, Tuna sp., etc.) are aquacultured for food and chemicals.
Energy requirments of the fish is derived from food for (generalized) basic life functions, growth and reproduction. so very generally, with the removal of reproduction, that energy is then directed towards growth rates (of, course other factors also effect growth / reporduction). Maximum length given in books for species is not the average length of individuals in the fish population, as aquaculturists are trying to maximize growth rates - fatter fish, more food for people, greater profit. You won't find much growth rate information in generalized aquarium books.
Joe
"I still don't know about a tang in my tank, a whole day has passed and my tank is still 100 gal."
Think about those poor tangs in lfs looking for a great home with good water quality, abundant food and minimal stresses
1: With that price I hope they are really good looking Tangs & Angels! Yes you are correct in that the angel is a better selection for your 100 gallon - ONLY based on your size description of the two fish types. I also agree that people buy fish based on color first and then price, and generally don't consider husbandry requirements.
2: Good comment, and yes those types really boil the blood!. I haven't found the secret to easy fish removal from reef tanks yet
3: If you mean will the fish become stunted as compared to wild existence, then yes, since captivity has removed alot of external stimulus (predation, climate, hormonal, etc).
There is numerous research information regarding fish / invertebrate growth rates, deformities, diseases, etc. in various aquaculture literature (not just aquarium related). Numerous species of shrimp, seaweeds-macroalgaes and fish (catfish, tilapia, salmoniods, Tuna sp., etc.) are aquacultured for food and chemicals.
Energy requirments of the fish is derived from food for (generalized) basic life functions, growth and reproduction. so very generally, with the removal of reproduction, that energy is then directed towards growth rates (of, course other factors also effect growth / reporduction). Maximum length given in books for species is not the average length of individuals in the fish population, as aquaculturists are trying to maximize growth rates - fatter fish, more food for people, greater profit. You won't find much growth rate information in generalized aquarium books.
Joe
Chris you make good points except that two of the tangs you keep, especially when housed together, are aggressive. This aggression is magnified in our glass boxes. They don't lose their instinct to protect their territory, if anything it increases.
The 2 main factors in the daily migration of an animal are Food Source, and Predation.
Other important factors include population density, reproduction, territory (highly related to reproduction), etc. Also traveling from one large reef to another is somewhat stressful to fish, since the new reef area is completely foreign with unknown predators, territorial inhabitants, etc.
Tangs in the wild might swim several miles during the day, but we all know that tangs are a grazing fish. So swimming that far no doubt is partially due to finding good food. Second part of that equation is staying away from predators.
majority of the reefs do not have enough algae to maintain the fish species diversity directly - I mean in the Tang example, they get most of their food from large algae / seaweed areas / zones away from the reef, but are grazing all day long on the reef. So as Chris mentions they travel for food requirements, and if predation - on themselves or on their food source is removed, then they would still migrate with different patterns, probably limiting the range, since one factor changes slightly in they don't have to expend more energy in search of food. (hopefully this isn't taken out of context - doesn't mean reefs cannot support marine life!).
The Hummingbird. During the day a hummingbird will fly many miles to find enough food to keep it going. If I place a hummingbird feeder in my back yard. Even though they still have full ability to travel wherever they want, they will remain in the general vacinity of my house. Because I have taken away their main ingredient that makes them travel.
Good analogy incorporating standard generaliztion of basic biological & ecological ideals.
Other important factors include population density, reproduction, territory (highly related to reproduction), etc. Also traveling from one large reef to another is somewhat stressful to fish, since the new reef area is completely foreign with unknown predators, territorial inhabitants, etc.
Tangs in the wild might swim several miles during the day, but we all know that tangs are a grazing fish. So swimming that far no doubt is partially due to finding good food. Second part of that equation is staying away from predators.
majority of the reefs do not have enough algae to maintain the fish species diversity directly - I mean in the Tang example, they get most of their food from large algae / seaweed areas / zones away from the reef, but are grazing all day long on the reef. So as Chris mentions they travel for food requirements, and if predation - on themselves or on their food source is removed, then they would still migrate with different patterns, probably limiting the range, since one factor changes slightly in they don't have to expend more energy in search of food. (hopefully this isn't taken out of context - doesn't mean reefs cannot support marine life!).
The Hummingbird. During the day a hummingbird will fly many miles to find enough food to keep it going. If I place a hummingbird feeder in my back yard. Even though they still have full ability to travel wherever they want, they will remain in the general vacinity of my house. Because I have taken away their main ingredient that makes them travel.
Good analogy incorporating standard generaliztion of basic biological & ecological ideals.
Chris, I agree your points are well taken, but as GL pointed out aggression must be figured into the equation. I also would like to throw this into the discussion, how about reproduction, is that not a basic need. Now I realize that it is not in a fish tank, but will a fish ever be happy (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) without the chance to reproduce? Will it affect their health in any way?
Steve Nichols, I hope you get a chance to read this before you go to bed
Steve
Steve Nichols, I hope you get a chance to read this before you go to bed
Steve
But what about Shamu. Is he in the proper size tank to provide him with "the most humane environment"?
Are we not confining him to too tight of quarters just so we can have our thrill of watching him jump and splash us?
Is he getting his fair cut for doing Mike's Lemonade commercials?
Is his "holding tank" not compairable to our measily tanks that are too small for the fish we keep? Even though some of us have large tanks, who are we to say that any tank size is compairable to the ocean?
Shame on the people who pay to see Shamu. They know not what they are doing. They are promoting the capture and slavery of a fish that should be allowed to frolic in the wilderness of the Pacific.
It is this very behavior that filters down to those of us who enslave the Yellow Tang. Before too long, these maize colored fish will be used as "feeder guppies" by those who can afford to keep fish in tanks well over 100 gallons.
What about the demise of the fish they feed Shamu for his tricks? Has anyone ever considered their plite? They struggle for a short while in the wild earning their survival only to be netted and tossed into a bucket. Finally they are tossed helplessly into the mouths of Shamus all over the world.
Yes we are surrounded with in-humanity.
We must stop this behaviour before it is too late.
Are we not confining him to too tight of quarters just so we can have our thrill of watching him jump and splash us?
Is he getting his fair cut for doing Mike's Lemonade commercials?
Is his "holding tank" not compairable to our measily tanks that are too small for the fish we keep? Even though some of us have large tanks, who are we to say that any tank size is compairable to the ocean?
Shame on the people who pay to see Shamu. They know not what they are doing. They are promoting the capture and slavery of a fish that should be allowed to frolic in the wilderness of the Pacific.
It is this very behavior that filters down to those of us who enslave the Yellow Tang. Before too long, these maize colored fish will be used as "feeder guppies" by those who can afford to keep fish in tanks well over 100 gallons.
What about the demise of the fish they feed Shamu for his tricks? Has anyone ever considered their plite? They struggle for a short while in the wild earning their survival only to be netted and tossed into a bucket. Finally they are tossed helplessly into the mouths of Shamus all over the world.
Yes we are surrounded with in-humanity.
We must stop this behaviour before it is too late.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jethro:
<STRONG>And what about the Betas that are being kept in plant vases. Not to mention little fish bowls.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dont forget to put in the mirrors
<STRONG>And what about the Betas that are being kept in plant vases. Not to mention little fish bowls.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dont forget to put in the mirrors
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