I don't know about an apology. I don't think you'll ever convince me that an apartment is the place for a border collie. I don't know of any person that specializes in dogs that would agree with your self assessment. As I said earlier I don't doubt you care for your dog. However you are the one that has drawn the parallel between your dog and your fish. If you were to do research on the border collie you would find nothing saying, "...great apartment dog". They are a working dog. If you do research on tangs you will not find much information promoting 40 gallon tanks either. You made the points I just happen to interpret them differently than you do.
Tang Growth
- Thread starter marinelife
- Start date
and that is a wonderful, GL.
I love different interpretations, science is all about the way you see things. The owner of the tank thinks that their fish is fine in their tank and they have had direct experience with it/could collect the data needed to tell, while I and others do not. I personally agree that it should be fine, but there is no reason to think less of a person if you don't know the data associated with it. The Naso tang would have no business in my 40 g. I keep a small tang.I keep a small, quiet dog that I decided to adopt after retrain it (physically abused by previous owners). This was my point.
I love different interpretations, science is all about the way you see things. The owner of the tank thinks that their fish is fine in their tank and they have had direct experience with it/could collect the data needed to tell, while I and others do not. I personally agree that it should be fine, but there is no reason to think less of a person if you don't know the data associated with it. The Naso tang would have no business in my 40 g. I keep a small tang.I keep a small, quiet dog that I decided to adopt after retrain it (physically abused by previous owners). This was my point.
I personally have not seen any experienced hobbiest or professional recommend keeping a Tang in a 40 gallon tank, I dont see how this is even debatable. A 40 is a 40, no matter how much we want to think our tanks are unique there is no changing this fact.
If any new people read this thread (and actually care whats best for a Tang) hopefully they will research this subject further.
Steve
If any new people read this thread (and actually care whats best for a Tang) hopefully they will research this subject further.
Steve
It seems to me that it's always the same people (and they appear on different boards as well) that have the sole purpose to condemn the people who keep fish in quarters undesired or unrecommended by themselves. I've seen their same responses and it's as if the only posts they ever comment on are the Tang in a 55 posts ("A tang belongs in the ocean or no tank under 50,000,000 gallons--you're evil for thinking of having one") gallons posts. Let's offer some encouragement or advise (or maybe just silence) instead of continuously hammering the same responses to these people.
Face it, there are many, many more silent people who have Tangs in smaller that what you would recommend tanks and they just don't post or respond because of the quick flames/responses for someone not living up to these anti-Tang advocates. Also,deal with the fact that Tangs are an ubiquitous fixture in our reef tanks and they aren't going away anytime soon. They fill every LFS and are as common as Clownfish in marine aquaria. So, in a word, Lighten up.....
I don't recommend a Tang in a 40 or anything smaller, so don't assume I do. But i feel one would do well in a 75 or larger (certain species, mind you), as recommended by the experts (I.e. Scott Micheal, the only real fish expert around, IMO).
[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: 6_line ]
Face it, there are many, many more silent people who have Tangs in smaller that what you would recommend tanks and they just don't post or respond because of the quick flames/responses for someone not living up to these anti-Tang advocates. Also,deal with the fact that Tangs are an ubiquitous fixture in our reef tanks and they aren't going away anytime soon. They fill every LFS and are as common as Clownfish in marine aquaria. So, in a word, Lighten up.....
I don't recommend a Tang in a 40 or anything smaller, so don't assume I do. But i feel one would do well in a 75 or larger (certain species, mind you), as recommended by the experts (I.e. Scott Micheal, the only real fish expert around, IMO).
[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: 6_line ]
naesco, SPC.:
I know what you are saying, and do agree that tangs need a larg tank. I've been in the Reef Hobby for over 10 years, and been working at the LFS on and off for the past 7 or so years. I do refuse to sell anyone a Tang if their tank is under 75g, then it will only be a Kole or something until the tank size is in the 150+ range.
I just didn't see any need for the "need a lager tank" response for this thread. Marinelife's tang is growing good, so it must be eating good and not to terribly stressed therefore it probably adapted to its new living conditions and is happy..
I know what you are saying, and do agree that tangs need a larg tank. I've been in the Reef Hobby for over 10 years, and been working at the LFS on and off for the past 7 or so years. I do refuse to sell anyone a Tang if their tank is under 75g, then it will only be a Kole or something until the tank size is in the 150+ range.
I just didn't see any need for the "need a lager tank" response for this thread. Marinelife's tang is growing good, so it must be eating good and not to terribly stressed therefore it probably adapted to its new living conditions and is happy..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 6_line:
<STRONG>Let's offer some encouragement or advise (or maybe just silence) instead of continuously hammering the same responses to these people.</STRONG>
Personally I try to be as nice about it as I can. I happen to feel strongly on the size of tank issue and as I mentioned in a post above hopefully someone will read these threads and not put a tang in a 40 or a 55.
<STRONG>Face it, there are many, many more silent people who have Tangs in smaller that what you would recommend tanks and they just don't post or respond because of the quick flames/responses for someone not living up to these anti-Tang advocates. Also,deal with the fact that Tangs are an ubiquitous fixture in our reef tanks and they aren't going away anytime soon. They fill every LFS and are as common as Clownfish in marine aquaria. So, in a word, Lighten up.....</STRONG>
That does not make it right. Education is the key. I don't agree with flaming and try not to do it that way but it is a serious issue and needs to be addressed.
<STRONG>I don't recommend a Tang in a 40 or anything smaller, so don't assume I do. But i feel one would do well in a 75 or larger (certain species, mind you), as recommended by the experts (I.e. Scott Micheal, the only real fish expert around, IMO).
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't quite understand your post in its entirety. You exaggerate earlier in your post to make your point. Then come back with the fact that you agree with what people have been saying throughout the thread. Scott Michael's books are fantastic and I urge you to have a look at his minimum tank requirements for tangs. As for him being the only expert around I don't agree, there are lots of guys around these boards that have enough experience to warrant our respect on this subject. HFF, Henry, BrianD, Exodus, Horge, Ron etc.
<STRONG>Let's offer some encouragement or advise (or maybe just silence) instead of continuously hammering the same responses to these people.</STRONG>
Personally I try to be as nice about it as I can. I happen to feel strongly on the size of tank issue and as I mentioned in a post above hopefully someone will read these threads and not put a tang in a 40 or a 55.
<STRONG>Face it, there are many, many more silent people who have Tangs in smaller that what you would recommend tanks and they just don't post or respond because of the quick flames/responses for someone not living up to these anti-Tang advocates. Also,deal with the fact that Tangs are an ubiquitous fixture in our reef tanks and they aren't going away anytime soon. They fill every LFS and are as common as Clownfish in marine aquaria. So, in a word, Lighten up.....</STRONG>
That does not make it right. Education is the key. I don't agree with flaming and try not to do it that way but it is a serious issue and needs to be addressed.
<STRONG>I don't recommend a Tang in a 40 or anything smaller, so don't assume I do. But i feel one would do well in a 75 or larger (certain species, mind you), as recommended by the experts (I.e. Scott Micheal, the only real fish expert around, IMO).
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't quite understand your post in its entirety. You exaggerate earlier in your post to make your point. Then come back with the fact that you agree with what people have been saying throughout the thread. Scott Michael's books are fantastic and I urge you to have a look at his minimum tank requirements for tangs. As for him being the only expert around I don't agree, there are lots of guys around these boards that have enough experience to warrant our respect on this subject. HFF, Henry, BrianD, Exodus, Horge, Ron etc.
6_line, can you show were the people on this thread only respond to posts that deal with Tangs? Lets try not to make comments that cannot be sustantiated. As posters to these boards we have an obligation to point out practices that go against what has been proven to be long term success with livestock. I know this hurts someones feelings that went ahead and did it anyway because they just had to have that Tang, but like it or not, we will continue to express our opinions on this matter. It seems to me when a post comes up that deals with Tangs in a small tank, that some would prefer only positive feed back for the poster. I read on these boards how we are responsible as hobbiest to point out to our LFS and others when they engage in practices that we find detrimental to the animals. But when it comes to Tangs in a small Tank I suppose that you would have us keep silent because it dosen't fit your agenda. Maybe you and some others can notify us when you think it is ok for us to make a comment, that way you wont have to hear what you don't want to hear.
Steve
Steve
Quillen, there is no tang small enough for a 40 in my opinion. In my experience I haven't found a tang small enough for my 72 gal. I have a 155 that I am setting up and am not sure if I'll add a tang to it. These are just my opinions admittedly. You can justify your decisions all you want and though I don't expect to change your views, I do hope that if a newcomer to the hobby reads posts like this they will not put a tang in a 40.
That was very noble saving the dog from abusive treatment. Good for you! (No sarcasm)
That was very noble saving the dog from abusive treatment. Good for you! (No sarcasm)
my 40 g is more debatable then something over 100g.
I would hope that anyone who is thinking of keeping a tang in anything under a 55 g would do as much careful research as I did, making it possible for them to see our posts. I am still doing research.
Mickes
I really appreciate your efforts in a LFS capacity to ensure your buyers know tang needs.
I want to point out to you though that the message discussion was TANG GROWTH and after my original post thought tank size was an appropriate part of that discussion.
Marinelife, I don't think you were flamed but if that was your interpretation I am sorry.
Thank you
I really appreciate your efforts in a LFS capacity to ensure your buyers know tang needs.
I want to point out to you though that the message discussion was TANG GROWTH and after my original post thought tank size was an appropriate part of that discussion.
Marinelife, I don't think you were flamed but if that was your interpretation I am sorry.
Thank you
Hi- Id like to be flamed too. Here is an obviously unhappy Hippo in my 40 breeder.
BTW he's a whole 3" long. He also cruises the whole tank. He does not pace, eats like a pig, and always comes to the front of the tank when I walk by. He also has never had Ick. I think that it is noble to give your fish as much room to swim as you can, but I give "more room" only as much weight as good water quality, varied diet, consistent feedings, etc. Which is a happier tang, one in a 40 gal with 0ppm amm and nitrate + three X daily food (live, flake (spirulina), frozen), or one in a 180 w/ trickle filter, high nitrates, and a pinch of "tropical flakes" when the owner remembers ?
FWIW.
Brian
BTW he's a whole 3" long. He also cruises the whole tank. He does not pace, eats like a pig, and always comes to the front of the tank when I walk by. He also has never had Ick. I think that it is noble to give your fish as much room to swim as you can, but I give "more room" only as much weight as good water quality, varied diet, consistent feedings, etc. Which is a happier tang, one in a 40 gal with 0ppm amm and nitrate + three X daily food (live, flake (spirulina), frozen), or one in a 180 w/ trickle filter, high nitrates, and a pinch of "tropical flakes" when the owner remembers ?
FWIW.
Brian
That tang is dying....
Now we all know that those Blue Hippos are supposed to get 12plus inches and perhaps one day you'll have to upgrade...but IMO, a 12 inch fish needs at least an 8 foot tank.
Now compare the amount of Blue tangs sold at the LFS and online and in reefer's tanks to the amount of people who have 8 foot tanks. Not many people have them. So what's happening to all those Hippos? Are they all dead from ich?
Any fish would be happier in the reef. Some claim a Clownfish is happier in his anemone in the reef tank where it isn't subject to attacks and invasions of other fish; but in the reefs, they aren't subject to power outages, kalk overdoses, dropped pennies, kids tapping on the glass,beer pourings or having their homes suddenly burst apart and the fish end up flopping around on the floor--so there's an arguement for people who claim they only keep species of fish that have a small territory and those who do not swim in schools or tirelessly throughout the day. IMO, all fish would be happier out on the reef and we're just picking out tangs as the fish which should remain in the ocean. If a fish is raised in a 4 foot tank, I'd assume all memory of the vast reef diminishes after time and the rectangle it swims in becomes home. Besides, the fish no longer need to swim tirelessly in search of food because the reefkeeper provides that daily. Just a thought...
Now we all know that those Blue Hippos are supposed to get 12plus inches and perhaps one day you'll have to upgrade...but IMO, a 12 inch fish needs at least an 8 foot tank.
Now compare the amount of Blue tangs sold at the LFS and online and in reefer's tanks to the amount of people who have 8 foot tanks. Not many people have them. So what's happening to all those Hippos? Are they all dead from ich?
Any fish would be happier in the reef. Some claim a Clownfish is happier in his anemone in the reef tank where it isn't subject to attacks and invasions of other fish; but in the reefs, they aren't subject to power outages, kalk overdoses, dropped pennies, kids tapping on the glass,beer pourings or having their homes suddenly burst apart and the fish end up flopping around on the floor--so there's an arguement for people who claim they only keep species of fish that have a small territory and those who do not swim in schools or tirelessly throughout the day. IMO, all fish would be happier out on the reef and we're just picking out tangs as the fish which should remain in the ocean. If a fish is raised in a 4 foot tank, I'd assume all memory of the vast reef diminishes after time and the rectangle it swims in becomes home. Besides, the fish no longer need to swim tirelessly in search of food because the reefkeeper provides that daily. Just a thought...
What a beautiful baby/fish, congrats
. It is a bit bigger then my tang.
I agree, I think all fish would be happier in the ocean. When I grow up, I'd like to make a tank that is over 8 ft long, I want a long living room. It will compliment livingroom area that adjurns into a dining room and kitchen. My 40 g will be one of my sick tanks -- I'll have smokeless parties where we get together to listen to the grand piano and I can cook fancy meals with orange roughy & scallops
(grin).
I agree, I think all fish would be happier in the ocean. When I grow up, I'd like to make a tank that is over 8 ft long, I want a long living room. It will compliment livingroom area that adjurns into a dining room and kitchen. My 40 g will be one of my sick tanks -- I'll have smokeless parties where we get together to listen to the grand piano and I can cook fancy meals with orange roughy & scallops
(grin).6_line, you originally stated that certain people only reply to Tang threads, I am still waiting for you to explain who these people are. So far everyone who has posted on this thread that disagrees with you, does not only post to these threads, I have actually seen them on other threads helping people. This difference in opinion is not limited to just Tangs and Sharks but also to Mandarins, Gorniopora, Cleaner Wrass, protein skimmers, calc reators, tank raised livestock, protecting the reefs, etc...
The problem, IMO is that once the person with a Tang in a 40 gallon tank is told this is probably not the best thing for a Tang (according to the experts) the others who do this same thing (because its covenient to have a 40 gallon tank) jump in to tell of their vast experience. Where are the hobbiest with 10 plus years of experience at on this thread, how come they haven't spoken up?
Steve
The problem, IMO is that once the person with a Tang in a 40 gallon tank is told this is probably not the best thing for a Tang (according to the experts) the others who do this same thing (because its covenient to have a 40 gallon tank) jump in to tell of their vast experience. Where are the hobbiest with 10 plus years of experience at on this thread, how come they haven't spoken up?
Steve
Marinelife: Your not being flamed here in the least... I just stirred something because I'm (and probably some others) are tired of reading the same thing when it comes to tangs...
naesco: I’m not saying it’s you are anyone else in particular… I’m just saying, that no mater what the tang question, comment, or whatever… one of the first responses is “your tank is too small”. Anyone with a tang in a tank less the 300g that does have a problem and read this board at all looking for the answer isn’t going to post the question for help: Cause the only thing that is going to be said is “your tank is too small, take it back”. Lets face it, there are going to be tangs (and other fish) in a too small of a tank… Help and comments can be given without jumping all over the Tang posts with the same thing over and over again.
naesco: I’m not saying it’s you are anyone else in particular… I’m just saying, that no mater what the tang question, comment, or whatever… one of the first responses is “your tank is too small”. Anyone with a tang in a tank less the 300g that does have a problem and read this board at all looking for the answer isn’t going to post the question for help: Cause the only thing that is going to be said is “your tank is too small, take it back”. Lets face it, there are going to be tangs (and other fish) in a too small of a tank… Help and comments can be given without jumping all over the Tang posts with the same thing over and over again.
Marty, are people who believe that they are helping someone by telling them their Tank is to small for a Tang not supposed to respond to these threads. Maybe I am not understanding this, but when a person posts that their Tang is sick, I read all types of possibilities from posters, only one of which is tank size. People who post about tank size are trying to help the poster. The tank size issue is the one that becomes emotional because its human nature not to take responsibilty for the care you have given your animals. How many times have you had a customer come in and ask you about a sick fish with some kind of medication in their hand that they just picked off the shelf. When you ask them when was the last time you did a water change or what is your fish load or anything they are responsible for, do they take your advice or do they look for a quick fix such as medication. How about my water is cloudy will this stuff clear it up? And my favorite, I have all this green stuff in my tank will this stuff get rid of it. Now I am not saying that 100% of the people dont listen to your advice, but I would bet you see enough that it can get discouraging.
I can't prove that tank size is even a factor as far as fish health, but common sence tells me it does matter. I also have a theory that some of the fish deaths at LFS are due to people tapping on glass or other wise startling the fish, but thats another topic.
Steve
I can't prove that tank size is even a factor as far as fish health, but common sence tells me it does matter. I also have a theory that some of the fish deaths at LFS are due to people tapping on glass or other wise startling the fish, but thats another topic.
Steve
Steve:
I understand what you are saying, and I’m not saying don’t post about tank size requirements for tangs. I just had someone that had a 55g tank and I wouldn’t sell them a Yellow Tang explaining why. So they went to the other store and put two yellow tangs in the tank. That same weekend they were back trying to fix their tank that came down with a very bad case of ICK and they ended up loosing everything.
My only comment was, why is the race on to be the first one to say “your tank is too small” when it comes to tang questions or even comments… I.E. this thread… Someone posting progress on a very healthy tang in a 120g tank and doing great. (the id of the tang was still in doubt) and still one of the first post is “you need a 300g tank”…. Not… Good Job, Good-looking Tang, etc…. And you have to admit, people that do post questions about their tang in a 75, 55, even 40 and I thing there was a 30g out there get hammered pretty fast and hard about it. OK… the 30g, and 40g ones deserved it….
By the way… about 99% of my customers listen to what I say…cause I know what I’m talking about….LOL…. But seriously, about 80% of what I think I know comes off of boards like this. And I haven’t learned anything about tangs here except they need an extremely large tank.
I understand what you are saying, and I’m not saying don’t post about tank size requirements for tangs. I just had someone that had a 55g tank and I wouldn’t sell them a Yellow Tang explaining why. So they went to the other store and put two yellow tangs in the tank. That same weekend they were back trying to fix their tank that came down with a very bad case of ICK and they ended up loosing everything.
My only comment was, why is the race on to be the first one to say “your tank is too small” when it comes to tang questions or even comments… I.E. this thread… Someone posting progress on a very healthy tang in a 120g tank and doing great. (the id of the tang was still in doubt) and still one of the first post is “you need a 300g tank”…. Not… Good Job, Good-looking Tang, etc…. And you have to admit, people that do post questions about their tang in a 75, 55, even 40 and I thing there was a 30g out there get hammered pretty fast and hard about it. OK… the 30g, and 40g ones deserved it….
By the way… about 99% of my customers listen to what I say…cause I know what I’m talking about….LOL…. But seriously, about 80% of what I think I know comes off of boards like this. And I haven’t learned anything about tangs here except they need an extremely large tank.
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