PREVENTING illness in fish

[SPC]

Posted by Leo:
The point of this whole exercise is that only ignorant asses can claim to know everything there is to know.

- Leo, this last statement you made clears up your beef with Terry somewhat for me. It appears that you are confusing Terry with someone who has not spent a big part of their life studying fish disease and related information. Believe it or not Terry dosen't need to answer your very basic questions in order to proove his credentials. If you had taken the time to read any of his published works you might have noticed that he already answered your questions as well as many others.
Steve

 

[LeoR]

MattM:

Your post actually supports my point, which is that Ich can remain dormant for a long time.
(I don't think I claimed Ich spends all that time on substrate, though it could -- location makes little difference in the dormant stage).

In case you didn't know this, Ich can not only remain dormant on fish, but it can also reproduce right there! (this is the answer to my question #1 and it also explains how dormant cysts get there).

LeoR

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

SPC:

If someone with good credentials says something wrong, it is still wrong.

If Terry has published answers to my questions before he can simply post a link.

LeoR

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LeoR:
<strong>Your post actually supports my point, which is that Ich can remain dormant for a long </strong><hr></blockquote>

I never said "dormant", I said "subclinical". There is a big difference.

I have not seen any research, reports, journals, or other data that supports your assertion that C. irritans remains in the cyst stage for more than 35 days. If you have such information, please provide a reference.

 

[john f]

Leo,
I think you are playing a little avoidance.
Which information in particular is incorrect Terry has provided?

Many of your questions are written poorly and could not even be answered straight away.

I will agree with you that what Terry has done is to read someone elses original research and condense the information into his own articles. But this is what happens in all of the hobbyist literature.
How many articles either here or in FAMA or even online at Advanced Aquarist magazine represent original scientific works? Probably close to none.

You need to seperate your personal dislike for Terrys attitude from this thread.
Terry may have an arrogant attitude, but yours is not any better.

The original question was about how to prevent introduction of disease into a reef tank.

Is it your position this is an impossible task?
Your best remedy seems to be control of stress and feeding well.
I can tell you that well fed, unstressed fish can and do get cryptocaryon infections.
So your method will NOT prevent disease introduction....will it?

John

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: john f ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

MattM:

Let's split hairs if you insist:

Subclinical:
Main Entry: sub.clin.i.cal
Pronunciation: -'klin-i-k&l
Function: adjective
Definition:
Not detectable or producing effects that are not detectable by the usual clinical tests.
<a sub·clin·i·cal infection> <sub·clin·i·cal cancer>
Example:
"Subclinical (latent) infection, complications of Lyme's disease (fibromyalgia syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, etc.) and mixed-infection with tick-borne viral encephalitis are included as well."[/i]

Latent:
Main Entry: la.tent
Pronunciation: 'lAt-&nt
Function: adjective
Definition:
Existing in hidden or dormant form: as a : present or capable of living or developing in a host without producing visible symptoms of disease
<a la·tent virus> <a la·tent infection> ...

Dormant
Pronunciation: 'dor-m&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology:Middle English, fixed, stationary, from Middle French, from present participle of dormir to sleep, from Latin dormire; akin to Sanskrit drAti he sleeps.
Definition:
2 : marked by a suspension of activity: as a : temporarily devoid of external activity <a dormant volcano> b : temporarily in abeyance yet capable of being activated
3 a : ASLEEP, INACTIVE b : having the faculties suspended : SLUGGISH c : having biological activity suspended: as (1) : being in a state of suspended animation (2) : not actively growing but protected (as by bud scales) from the environment -- used of plant parts
synonym: see LATENT

LeoR

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

john f:

The original subject is the best way to prevent disease, not how to prevent introduction.
Fighting intruders at the door is only part of the solution as many will get through anyway.

Many people here focus on chemical and technological approach to eradicating disease.
Because the fish immune system is a very effective and natural disease control device, my post puts emphasis on the neglected but basic requirements for helping the fish fend of disease, such as proper food.

LeoR

 

[SPC]

Posted by Leo:
If Terry has published answers to my questions before he can simply post a link.

-Fair enough Leo.
Steve

 

[Len]

All semantics aside, here's some clarification:

C.irritans can not stay "dormant" without an acceptable host. "Dormant" C.irritans is used to describe the parasite in it's Tomont stage where the parasite is encysted and reproduces (via binary division) apart from host organisms. Once the dormat C.irritans ruptures (in more the 30-35 days), the free swimming offspring (known as Theronts) must find a host within 48 hours or the parasites die. Parasites that find hosts (known as Trophants) can survive for extended periods of time, but may remain, as Matt mentioned, subclinical. The virulency of C.irritans occurs when the parasite becomes clinical. In this regard, this is a significant difference between "dormant" and "subclinical."

 

[Len]

Originally posted by LeoR:
In case you didn't know this, Ich can not only remain dormant on fish, but it can also reproduce right there! (this is the answer to my question #1 and it also explains how dormant cysts get there).

Can you provide references that confirm C.irritans can reproduce on fish? From what I understand, C.irritans must become a tomont to replicate.

 

[LeoR]

Leonard:

"Subclinical" and "dormant" are practically synonyms.

But, leaving all semantics aside, what is the practical difference between "subclinical" and "dormant"?

There isn't any, period, full stop.

LeoR

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[john f]

" as many will get through anyway."

This does not have to be the case.
How many healthy fish in a reef tank are lost to a disease other than Ich?

I would hazard a guess that other than injury or poor nutrition, cyrptocaryon accounts for the majority of early fish loss in a reef tank.
So why not simply prevent it's introduction in the first place?
I agree that proper nutrition is important but I'm not sure it is so overlooked for most fish as you believe. Most fishkeepers I have met love to feed their charges, and most have gotton away from the early reefkeeping days when you fed very little once a week.
Now feeding corals is a different story.

But despite your luck with healthy fish there are many reefers who feed their fish a great variety and quantity of food, and still lose fish to Ich.
True you cannot prevent every disease, but since you CAN prevent the introduction of THE major pathogen in reef fish, why not do it? What really is your arguement with Terrys position?
All the cleaner shrimp and healthy food in the world cannot keep a healthy fish from getting cryptocaryon if he is exposed to enough infective trophonts.

You say feed the fish plenty and minimize stress..........Good advice.
Terry says eliminate the introduction of cryptocaryon from the start and you call him an idiot.
Think about it.
Your positions do not have to conflict.


John

 

[Len]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terry B:
<strong>Facultative pathogens are those that are opportunistic and are only really problematic when the fish has a weakened immune system. Obligate pathogens are quite different and can attack perfectly healthy fish.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Terry,

With all due respect, I don't wholly agree with your inferences/application of this statement. Both faculatative and obligate pathogens can attack perfectly healthy organisms. The difference is, obligate pathogens must do so to live, whereas faculative has alternate means of sustanence (ie, it's less imperative). This doesn't suggest that only obligate pathogens can attack healthy hosts, nor that obligate pathogens are always successful at attacking healthy hosts. Healthy fish can ward off clinical expressions of both faculative and obligate pathogens.

 

[Len]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LeoR:
<strong>
"Subclinical" and "dormant" are practically synonyms.

But, leaving all semantics aside, what is the practical difference between "subclinical" and "dormant"?

There isn't any, period, full stop.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Apparently, I wasn't completely clear. Subclinical and dormant are not synonyms by any stretch of the imagination. They bare resemblences, but the words have sigificantly different meanings. Reread my first post to understand what these differences are.

Please do not take my disagreements as a personal offense. I'm making as subjective an argument as possible.

 

[Len]

FWIW,

I agree with LeoR when he says healthy fish are better able to ward off pathogens (C.irritans included). In my experience, fish fed a proper diet and kept in stable chemical and physical conditions can fend off C.irritans on their own. I've found temperature stability to be particularly useful.

My tangs occassionally break out with Ich, but heal nicely on their own each and every time. Breakouts become symptomatic even without new livestock additions, but I don't attribute their reoccurance to the long term viability of "dormant" C.irritans (which scientific literature has repeatedly concluded is impossible). Instead, I believe that much of the time, my fish carry trophants that remain subclincal because of their good health.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Leonard ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

john f:

Your statement that Terry got the "idiot" label for calling for prevention is not even close to facts.

I stand by my statement that food is the single most important factor in reef/fish-keeping.
And the quality may be more important then quantity -- just look at the health statistics of those raised on junk food.

LeoR

 

[LeoR]

Leonard:

Please re-read the dictionary entries above.

LeoR

 

[Len]

Leo,

I have. Of the 3 definitions for "dormant," number three is most applicable to our discussion:
not actively growing but protected (as by bud scales) from the environment -- used of plant parts

This describes C.irritans in its tomont stage .... something that is completely different then subclinical. Subclinical is more synonmous with asymptomatic (although those two words in themselves have reasonable differences as well).

BTW, no one is arguing nutrition isn't critical to fish health ("single most important" is highly suspect, however). But to say proper nutrition alone can ward off C.irritans is unreasonable at best. FYI: I don't think you're aruging this, but frankly, I don't understand why you're being so abrasive toward everyone.

 

[LeoR]

Leonard:

Here's one more quote from JAMA where "dormant" and "subclinical" are used interchangeably.
Let me know if you need more.

"Experts speculate that HPV infection may persist throughout a patient's lifetime in a dormant state and become infectious intermittently. Whether patients with subclinical HPV infection are as contagious as patients with exophytic warts is unknown."

You are correct in that I didn't claim that proper food is the only factor in disease.

LeoR

 

[john f]

"-- just look at the health statistics of those raised on junk food."

Leo,
I work as an Oncology Pharmacist and I can assure you many people eating very healthy diets get cancer as well as a host of other diseases.

It's becoming rather obvious that your pride prevents you from learning anything new.

John