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MandarinFish

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I am kinda re-iterating what I asked in another thread because I believe it deserves a seperate, identifiable thread (Mod - delete this if too redundant)...

Do cleaner shrimps and gobies prevent or minimize disease?

What else can minimize or prevent disease ahead of time?

an ounce of prevention....
 

SPC

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I purchase:
12 shrimp
6 scallops
1 flounder fillet (about 8" long)
4 oysters
Note: all my fish are carnivores

Take the shell off of shrimp and squeeze the head contents into the mixure.
Place all the above + about 30 ml of Selcon and 10 ml of Vita Chem in a blender. Add just enough RO water to help blend and blend food to a paste. Place blender mush in a large baggie with zip lock. Place baggie on cookie sheet and spread mush out to a flat sheet (about 1/4" thick). Freeze and use as needed.
This cost me around $6 and lasts for 3 or more months.
 

Terry B

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Cleaners are of mimimal help with ich, better with black spot. I can tell you what people like Martin Moe and Julian Sprung have told me personally "quarantine, quarantine, quarantine."
Terry B
 

LeoR

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The best way to prevent disease is to let the nature (fish immune system) take care of it.
And in that respect, a pound of food beats a truckload of cure.

The (long lost) secrets of long life in aquarium are:
1. Food.
2. Good food.
3. Plenty of food.
4. Clean water.
5. No bullies.

LeoR
 

MandarinFish

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Maybe my grouper died because it was being underfed... doesn't make sense though, since they tend to go long periods without eating in nature.

Damn.

Well, my skimmer (en-route) will facilitate heavier feeding.
 

naesco

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I think the best preventative is to keep a bottle of garlic extract in the fridge at all times.
If you feed garlic extract soaked foods when you purchase a new fish, IME it acts as an ich preventative.
It also has been successful when ich erupts on a fish if treated early.
The possibility exits that is also useful for a mild bacterial problem although thankfully I have no personal experience using garlic extract for this.
 

SPC

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Top quality food and low stress.
Food - I use a blended combination of fresh seafood with Selcon and Vita Chem added.
Stress -
1. Low fish load
2. Tankmates that get along
3. Housing that is adequate for the animal
4. Good water quality

Steve
 

MandarinFish

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1) I had a low fish load (only 2)... now it's lower
icon_sad.gif


2) my grouper harassed the Coral Beauty for a couple days initially, then the 2 got along almost like friends

3) my 55 was probably too small for the grouper (8-10"), but hopefully the right size for my Coral Beauty.

4) my h2o quality is what I am concerned about. But in my 55, I have only those 2 fish and a small anemone (which only likes a little food at a time anyway). I have been underfeeding and have a DSB and some LR. I also have caulerpa and halimeda in the tank itself to help filter and clean.

I have underfed this tank. I still don't understand how my grouper got sick and died.
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I have ordered a skimmer which is on the way.

How do your prep your food exactly (steps)?
 

EmilyB

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I believe food is extremely important as well. Health and behavior benefits. I feed a homemade, plus have a shopping bag size of frozen foods in the freezer. With grazing foods for tangs aplenty.

You simply can't do that, or provide that, without a large tank and good skimming, in my case.
 

Terry B

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I would quarantine all new fish for 3 weeks+. Try to buy inverts out of tanks that do not contain fish. Heavy feeding has nothing to do with preventing ich. Ich is a parasite that is usually introduced by failing to quarantine. That is the reason birds and some other wild animals are quarantined and fish should be to.
Terry B
 

LeoR

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MandarinFish:

Just because a fish can survive for a while without food that does not mean it will be fit to weather other calamities, which abound in our tanks.

All of us could survive 30 days without food, but for some reason we eat 3+ times a day. TV reports from Africa show what happens to people who skip too many meals.

Like us, fish eat whenever they are hungry (if there is food available). Unlike us, they usually refuse food when they are full.

My fish ask for and eat mostly fresh, natural food 4 to 5 times a day.
That could have something to do with the fact that I can't remember the last time a fish got sick here.

So, advice to feed fish every other day is a potentially deadly myth.

LeoR

P.S. Did I mention the importance of food?
icon_smile.gif
 

LeoR

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Terry B:

You've missed my sole point, repeated ad nauseam, which is:

Yes, proper food can and will prevent most diseases, including ich.

Why and how it works is simple:
Proper nutrition makes fish healthy and provides all the stuff it needs for self-defense. A
healthy fish with a strong immune system can fend off most diseases without any outside intervention.

The proof: malnourished creatures of *any* species are more likely to succumb to disease.
Just ask your mom.

LeoR

P.S. Did I mention food again
icon_smile.gif
 

MandarinFish

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Good points Leo.

I don't have my skimmers yet, which is why I've been carefully feeding and not over-doing it.

In some fish, overfeeding kills 10x faster than underfeeding, but I get your point.

To ensure I get garlic extract and Selcon in to a mix of shredded seafood, I was thinking of blending something dry in... like flakes, nori, or some kind of meal... does that make sense?

After losing a fish, I am willing to go the distance and blend my own foods.
 

LeoR

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MandarinFish:

I would concentrate on finding the best food possible, rather than garlic and other stuff, which has no nutritional value.

If you read labels on the flakes' containers you'll see that most of it is fillers and junk, and the real fish food in it is so heavily processed to have very little nutritional value.

You can look up natural food for most species on fishbase.org.
You can find at least one good item for most fish in the seafood section of most grocery stores.

LeoR
 

Terry B

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LeoR,
Having studied Cryptocaryon irritans, stress in fish, and fish nutrition extensively I have to disagree with you. I am not disagreeing with the importance of good nutrition, pristine water quality, or a low stress environment. All of those things do contribute to the overall health of the fish. What I do disagree with is the idea that properly taking care of the needs of the fish makes them immune to an external parasite, specifically Cryptocaryon irritans. Ich can and does attack otherwise healthy fish in an aquarium and in the wild. Wild caught fish that appear to be in perfect health often harbor ich. This is easy enough to prove by simply examining a scraping from their skin and gills. Even though the cysts may not be visible to the naked eye they still show up in many (not all) fish that are examined at capture. In the confines of a glass box there is no place for the fish to escape or simply swim aware to another area. This is why ich is not much of a problem in the wild, but a huge problem in aquaria.
We have to distinguish between a facultative and an obligate pathogen here when making broad sweeping statements such as “Proper nutrition makes fish healthy and provides all the stuff it needs for self-defense.” Facultative pathogens are those that are opportunistic and are only really problematic when the fish has a weakened immune system. Obligate pathogens are quite different and can attack perfectly healthy fish. Ich is an obligate parasite. There are three factors that must be considered and these are sort of like the three legs on a stool. Break any one of the legs and the stool will fall. First we must consider the health of the fish, then the quality of the environment and after that the presence and population density of the particular pathogen. These three “legs” if you will are more of a factor when dealing with facultative pathogens, much less so with obligate ones. With an obligate pathogen the fish can be in great health, have a quality environment and still become infected. All it really takes is the introduction of the parasite and a suitable host so that the parasite can multiply in numbers. One the population of parasites within the system has reached critical mass even the healthiest of fish can succumb. You see its not all just black or white, because pathogens are not simple organisms to understand and they do not all behave in the same manner. Its much more complex than I can explain in one short post.
Terry B
 

danmhippo

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Leo, I don't think you want to make any bets with Terry on this subject. He has degrees on this and you don't, you will fail miserably.

Just a friendly suggestion, don't bet without knowing who you are betting with.
 

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