PREVENTING illness in fish

[danmhippo]

Hmm, You are right, I don't know you. But I know he has though.

I am no expert on this subject at all, but interested in how you want to prove your point? Can you prove it scientifically that ich exist in all aquaria and usually in dormant stage? Do you have a pic of ich in dormant stage? Do you have a pic of ich at all? Or do you have a footage of a ich without a host survived for months?

 

[Terry B]

LeoR,
OK LeoR lets take this out of the realm of what you believe based on whatever you base your personal opinion on and talk about what the scientific literature has to say on the subject. I tell you what, you give me a reference to support your view from the scientific literature if you can come up with one. I wonder if you even knew the difference between obligate and facultative pathogens before I explained it (only in part because there is more to the definition). Maybe you would like to start by reading one of my published articles on the subject that it full of references to the scientific literature that you can look up for yourself?
There has never been any dormant stage found in all the studies that have already been performed. You may not even understand all the ways that the parasite can be transmitted. That would certainly explain why you believe it can suddenly appear after no new additions for years. Judging from your comments you still don’t understand the difference between an obligate and facultative pathogen.
Terry B

 

[LeoR]

To put it as generously and gently as possible:

Only a complete idiot could write what you wrote above.

Have a nice day.

LeoR

 

[john f]

Leo,
Let me help to clear this up for you.
I have been in many of the same conversations you are now having with Terry and let me assure you.....He is correct.
I used to think like you that Ich is always present in marine aquaria.
Although this may be the case 90% of the time, it does not have to be.
Most people (myself included in the past) do not quarantine new fish AND corals correctly in order to prevent Ich from being introduced into their display systems.
So most people could have some Ich in their systems existing even at a subclinical level.............waiting for the chance to multiply on a new addition for example.
But it is entirely possible to eliminate Ich from a reef tank and never introduce it again.
Here is how:

1. Treat all fish in a Q-tank with hyposalinity, even if they don't show signs of cryptocaryon.

2. Let the reef tank run for 30-45 days with no fish present, and no new coral or live rock additions.

3. Quarantine all new coral and live rock additions for 30-45 days prior to introduction to the display reef.

4. Do not add any pumps, water, etc to the system unless you are sure they are clean and free of parasites. In other words don't take a powerhead from one system and place it into the reef without first bleaching it. You get the idea.

If you do this you will never get a crytocaryon infection in the reef tank.
Terry has probably stacks of scientific references to back this up.

The problem Terry has is communication.
He sometimes dosn't make his arguement in a convincing fashion and alot of long fights have occurred on this board and others over this same issue.
As I said I used to be on the other side......sitting exactly where you are Leo.
But science has convinced me I was wrong.

Now if you want to argue about the hassle involved in doing all of the above steps you will find no quarel with me.
I still believe a truely effective reef safe treatment for cryptocaryon Ich would be the best thing since sliced bread. But since none exists ( and don't tell me about garlic) it makes more sense to prevent ich intoduction in the first place.

John

 

[SPC]

Posted by Leo:
Only a complete idiot could write what you wrote above.

-I disagree, what Terry is presenting is scientific evidence to make his point, you have presented nothing but conjecture.
Steve

 

[Terry B]

LeoR.
Gheez, I guess you just made a fool of yourself here. What you mean is you don't have any references and you have run out of intelligent things to say. Now we know you are all smoke and mirrors with nothing to back up your opinion. I called your bluff and you blew it.
Terry B

 

[LeoR]

You couldn't be more wrong.

Ich is present in most tanks, usually in dormant stage, all the time.
I've seen outbreaks of ich in tanks where no new fish was added for years.

Even obligate parasites strike only when they have a good chance of success.
A fish in good health can usually fend them off, so they go dormant until an opportunity arises. And the opportunity arises when the fish is weakened or stressed.

So, healthy fish = no disease.
Simplified, but largely true.

LeoR

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[aakks]

Leo, the life cycle of marine ich has been studied extensively. It doesn't stay dormant in tanks for years. It just isn't capable of this feat. I'm sorry, but this is just myth.

Peter

 

[LeoR]

aakks:

Oh, really.
You want to bet?

LeoR

 

[LeoR]

Terry B:

OK, Mr. Crystal Ball, since you asked for it (Part 1):

You said:
"OK LeoR lets take this out of the realm of what you believe based on whatever you base your personal opinion on and talk about what the scientific literature has to say on the subject."

Could you tell us how do you know that all I said is just my personal opinion and not based on scientific literature?
Where can us mortals go to learn reading minds?
Can you also tell whether I've typed this from my head or copied from a book?


"I wonder if you even knew the difference between obligate and facultative pathogens before I explained it (only in part because there is more to the definition)."

Could you tell us how do you know what I knew about pathogens?
Where can us mortals go to learn voodoo?
Can you also tell whether I brushed my teeth before breakfast?

"Maybe you would like to start by reading one of my published articles on the subject that it full of references to the scientific literature that you can look up for yourself?"

No, sorry, I wouldn't. I do not obtain my knowledge from second-hand wanna-bes.

"There has never been any dormant stage found in all the studies that have already been performed."

Oh, really? What do you call the stage when tomont sits on substrate for weeks? Vacation stage?

"You may not even understand all the ways that the parasite can be transmitted."

Could you tell us how do you know what I know about parasite transmission?
Where can us mortals go to learn reading minds?
Can you also tell whether I'm wearing boxers or shorts?

"Judging from your comments you still don’t understand the difference between an obligate and facultative pathogen."

Great judgment. Based on what? Were you also on the OJ jury?

In conclusion, you must be either a supernatural being or an idiot.
I'll expand on this in the next post and let the members decide.

LeoR

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

Terry B:

Since you asked for it, let's see whether you have the foundation necessary for discussing advanced topics.
Please answer these fairly simple questions about Ich. If you know as much as you claim, this should take you only about 10 minutes.

The typical 3-step life cycle of Ich is well known and published in even beginner aquarium books.
Question 1 (super-easy):
What's the other life cycle of Ich?
Question 2 (easy):
How would you fix various Ich stages for microscopy?
Question 3 (easy):
What's the substrate preference of Ich?

Attack on a disease requires understanding the disease mechanism.
Question 4:
What attracts Ich to fish?
Question 5:
How do fish repel Ich?
Question 6:
How does Ich kill fish?

Various treatments for Ich are well known.
Question 7 (super-easy):
What are the 3 FDA approved or deferred Ich treatment chemicals?
Question 8 (easy):
List at least 2 succesful chemical treatments not mentioned in hobbyist books?
Question 9:
What is the main reason treatments sometimes work and sometimes fail?

We don't have a crystal ball to see whether you really knew all this before replying.
But it's okay if you do the research now and crib the answers, at least you will have learned something so you can post more boastful replies.

LeoR

 

[danmhippo]

Leo, why don't you send (via PM) your answer to one of the Moderators, Microchip, JamesW, or Chucker too! They are always on neutral ground and let them be your judge? And while you answered your own questions, can you also cite your sources in the PM?

BTW, it's interesting to see you haven't pulled any scientific proof that you know the subject. You are still resort to personal attack and dodged all questions Terry raised. At the same time, you are raising more questions for Terry while all previous questions to you remain unanswered!

 

[LeoR]

hippo:

The reason I asked the questions is explained in my post (knowledge of the basics is required for further discussion).

Terry claims to be an expert in the field. This means that he should not need your (or anyone else's) assistance.

So, with all due respect to everyone here who is itching

to jump in, let's hear it from the horse's mouth first.

LeoR

 

[Anonymous]

LeoR:

Not jumping on you, so pls don't get that idea. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say here and very much want to see you have the chance to say it. To that end, I'm just going to ask you, politely, to try and keep things from degenerating in this thread. I'd be disappointed if it were to spiral downwards and have to be closed, as I genuinely want to see this thread develop.

 

[jethro]

Another "get a life" thread.

It's spring time. Get out of the house and take a walk or something.

 

[Terry B]

LeoR,
I find it amusing that you keep asking questions and even demanding answers while putting a time limit on them. At the same time you repeatedly neglect to answer the questions that you are asked. I will ask again where are your references? If you had simply read the articles that I suggested you would already know my answers to some of your questions. I just got home late and need to be up for work in a few hours. Rest assured that I will be back. In the meantime how about you tell us your answers to your own questions and I will have even more questions for you. To say it would only take ten minutes to answer your questions is ridiculous unless you are expecting all one word or one sentence answers.
Terry B

 

[LeoR]

Terry B:

I just want to see what <b>you</b> know right now, not what you can find in other people's books.
So one sentence is fine, as long as it answers the question.

As for the answers:
Nice try, but no cigar.
Of course I asked these questions because I know the answers.

This is all well known stuff, so an expert in the field can answer almost every question in less than 1 minute without consulting any books.

So, you've already lost your expert bonus, but keep on with your research -- learning how much you don't know may help you with your attitude.

LeoR

 

[Anonymous]

Leo, putting Terry aside completely for a minute, I'd really like to see you answer a few of the questions asked. Not because I want you to establish your background or knowledge level. Not because I doubt you know what you're talking about. But because I suspect you do, indeed, know whereof you speak.

Treat this post as a serious inquiry, if you would, and respond to it as you would to someone genuinely looking for the relevent scientific information.

 

[LeoR]

cj:

I'll be happy to answer all questions as soon as Terry retracts his foolish remarks and gives up pretending to be an expert.

I am not an expert, nor will I ever claim to be as long as there is more to learn, which means forever.

The point of this whole exercise is that only ignorant asses can claim to know everything there is to know.

LeoR

 

[MattM]

I have had lengthy discussions with Terry as well on this issue. Our basic point of divergence is the percentage of aquaria that host a subclinical level C. irritans infection, my numbers are higher than Terry's.

But we do agree on the basic facts.

I agree with Leo that infestations can occur with no newly added fish, corals, or other sources of infection, but I beleive this is due to a subclinical infection which is not observable by the aquarist. I can not agree with's Leo's assertion that the cyst can survive for extended periods (not more than 35 days). I have yet to see any report or evidence to support this assertion.

Two interesting items I found in research recently:
<ul type="square">[*]This abstract from the journal "Diseases of Aquatic Organisms" suggests that C. irritans is common in the wild, not rare as has been previously proposed.[*]This article by Shawn Prescott which indicates the presence of trophonts in skin scrapings from fish that do not show a clinical infection of C. irritans and have been observed to be parasite free for more than 6 months.
[/list]

If this latter report can be confirmed by others, then perhaps we have found the method by which ich-free aquariums have outbreaks with no new additions. The C. irritans is not surviving in cyst form, or completing it's life cycle at the subclinical level, but rather is maintaining an long term presence on the fish in the trophont stage without leaving the fish and reproducing.

It bears further investigation at least.

Finally, for those looking for scientific literature to support your claims, here is the reference list from Prescott's article:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Burgess, P.J. and Matthews, R.A. (1994). A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet ( Chelon labrosus) as an experimental host. Journal of Parasitology, 80, 288-292.

Burgess, P.J. and Matthews, R.A. (1994 ). Cryptocaryon irritans: (Ciliophora): photoperiod and transmission in marine fish. Journal of the Marine Biological Association, 74, 535-542.

Burgess, P.J. (1995). Marine Whitespot Disease. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 18 (1), 168-196.

Burgess, P.J. and Matthews, R.A. (1995). Fish host range of seven isolates of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora). Journal of Fish Biology, 46, 727-729.

Burgess, P.J. and Matthews, R.A. (1995). Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): acquired protective immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. Fish and Shellfish Immunology, 5, 459-468.

Cheung, P.J., Nigrelli, R.F. and Ruggieri, G.D. (1979). Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on the reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951. Journal of Fish Diseases, 2, 93-97.

Cheung, P.F., Nigrelli, R.F. and Ruggieri, G.D. (1981). Scanning electron microscopy on Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, a parasitic ciliate in marine fishes. Journal of Aquariculture, 2, 7~72.

Colorni, A. (1987). Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control. Aquaculture, 67, 236-237.

Colorni, A. and Diamant, D. (1993). Ultrastructural features of Cryptocaryon irritans, a ciliate parasite of marine fish. European Journal of Protistology 29, 425-434.

Diamant, A., Issar, G., Colorni, A. and Paperna, I. (1991). A pathogenic Cryptocaryon-like ciliate from the Mediterranean Sea. Bulletin of the European Association of Fish Pathologists, 11, 122-124.

Herwig, N. (1978). Treatment of Cryptocaryon - saltwater Ich. Tropical Fish Hobbyist, 26, 55-62.

Matthews, R.A. and Burgess, P.J. (1995). Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): primary infection in thick-lipped mullet. Journal of Fish Diseases, 18, 329-335.

Nigrelli, R.F. and Ruggieri, G.D. (1966). Enzootics in the New York aquarium caused by Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951 (= Ichthyophthirius marinus Sikama, 1961), a histophagous ciliate in the skin, eyes and gills of marine fishes. Zoologica, 51, 97-102.

Violetta, G. (1980). A review of two epizootic marine protozoans: Oodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 3, 52-53,70-72.

Wilkie, D.W. and Gordin, H. (1969). Outbreak of cryptocaryoniasis in marine aquaria at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. California Fish and Game, 55, 227-236.

Yoshinga, T. and Dickerson. (1994). Laboratory propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a saltwater-adapted Poecilia hybrid, the black molly. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6, 197-201.<hr></blockquote>