cal's FW tank lessons learned

[Anonymous]

what have you got in the tank so far?

there are two ways you can go, my way, or beaslbob's.

now, both are tried and tested ways of getting a tank going, and both are fine, it just comes down to personal preference, although, both do have one thing in common, you need patience!

"there are 37 different ways to skin a cat"

and even more ways to run a tank-regardless of type

only the basics fundamentals need to be adhered to (all of which beasleboy is completely ign'ant about , as he's all too often proved with his posts )

 

[Anonymous]

This is a very interesting read! I have learned alot from this. I'm writing regarding my 55 gal Cummity Tank. It has been up and running for 2 weeks now. I used gravel and water from 20 Tank that I upgraded from and plants. My ammonia and nitrites still not 0 yet. I also put in a Bio Wheel Filter. Its been running 1 week now. Still no change. From reading these Threads Im starting to think maybe i just need more plants. Do you have any suggestions on how i could bring ammonia and nitrites to 0. Right now all test show 1 notch up from 0. PH is cool and steady at 7.
I would send a pic but all my pictures are too bid for this site

Make your pics smaller.


Cal's tanks and all my tanks have never been tested.

If your fish are fine and the tank clear those small values are nothing to worry about. If you do nothing your existing plants will grow and bring the system into balance. Which seems to be just about the case right now.

that said I do like to add plants when I get a chance. So that would not hurt anything. But it probably is not absolutely necessary either.


Glad you enjoyed this thread.

my .02

 

[Anonymous]

see, thats where we differ, i *always* test a tank. if your new to fishkeeping, it's a good habit to get into, as otherwise how will you know what is going on in the tank?

 

[Anonymous]

see, thats where we differ, i *always* test a tank. if your new to fishkeeping, it's a good habit to get into, as otherwise how will you know what is going on in the tank?

ding ding ding !

 

[Anonymous]

All I need to know is I have a stable population of 20-30 fish, plenty of plants, with tap water, no water changes, no filtration, no circulation not even an air stone. With clear water and only annual scraping of a very slight algae off the sides.

And that has happened in 1/2 a dozen cities on the US since the late 70's.

In other words I look at the tank.

No testing needed.

 

[Anonymous]

i know folks who always cross at red lights-been doin it for years

i almost got hit by a car at an intersection yesterday when i had the greenwalk sign


a word to the wise is sufficient

 

[Anonymous]

there is an old lymeric type this being said by chemistry teachers since the dark ages (sort of)

it goes:

Poor old Brown is dead and gone
His face you'll see no more
For what he thought was H2O
was H2SO4.

 

[gpodio]

This is a very interesting read! I have learned alot from this. I'm writing regarding my 55 gal Cummity Tank. It has been up and running for 2 weeks now. I used gravel and water from 20 Tank that I upgraded from and plants. My ammonia and nitrites still not 0 yet. I also put in a Bio Wheel Filter. Its been running 1 week now. Still no change. From reading these Threads Im starting to think maybe i just need more plants. Do you have any suggestions on how i could bring ammonia and nitrites to 0. Right now all test show 1 notch up from 0. PH is cool and steady at 7.
I would send a pic but all my pictures are too bid for this site

Snoopy, two weeks is simply not enough time to cycle most tanks. I think you'll find it will cycle by end of week 4. Adding more filtration will not speed up the process, just add more surface area for the bacteria to inhabit.

Plants can use most forms of nitrogen but your goal right now is not to compete with the bacteria that is responsible for converting ammonia. Plants can help you in the long run to consume nitrates and in general create a healthier environment but cycling is something that should be left to take it's course. If you have access to fresh mulm from another tank then you can tip some in your filters to speed up the process. Bio-Spira also works. But patience is your best bet right now.

Hope that helps

 

[Anonymous]

This is a very interesting read! I have learned alot from this. I'm writing regarding my 55 gal Cummity Tank. It has been up and running for 2 weeks now. I used gravel and water from 20 Tank that I upgraded from and plants. My ammonia and nitrites still not 0 yet. I also put in a Bio Wheel Filter. Its been running 1 week now. Still no change. From reading these Threads Im starting to think maybe i just need more plants. Do you have any suggestions on how i could bring ammonia and nitrites to 0. Right now all test show 1 notch up from 0. PH is cool and steady at 7.
I would send a pic but all my pictures are too bid for this site

Snoopy, two weeks is simply not enough time to cycle most tanks. I think you'll find it will cycle by end of week 4. Adding more filtration will not speed up the process, just add more surface area for the bacteria to inhabit.

Plants can use most forms of nitrogen but your goal right now is not to compete with the bacteria that is responsible for converting ammonia. Plants can help you in the long run to consume nitrates and in general create a healthier environment but cycling is something that should be left to take it's course. If you have access to fresh mulm from another tank then you can tip some in your filters to speed up the process. Bio-Spira also works. But patience is your best bet right now.

Hope that helps

While it does take several weeks/months for the tank to "cycle" with sufficient plant life that is accomplished with little to no parameter spikes. Because the plant life and the bacteria work together and are both consuming the nitrogen, phosphorous, carbon dioxide, adding oxygen and filtering out toxins.

The ammonia is still there, the bacteria still grows, so that the plant life switches to nitrates as the bacteria builds up. All with no additives and no water changes and no filtration.

What is especially not needed and IMO a total waste of money is bacteria additives like bio spira. It makes no sense at all to pay $30 (or even $3) for a bottle of live bacteria that must be refrigerated or the bacterial will die. Then ship that bacteria for several days and hope you local LFS has the required refigeration. When that same exact bacteria will be in your tank 6 months later with no additives, no parameter spikes just a tank full of thriving fish and plants.

Additionally, some additives especially the dechlorinators and ammonia blocks also lock up the oxygen in the water reducing the amount of fish the tank can support.


Patience is a lot easier when you see plant growth the first days, then a fish live for a week, finally his mate and him for a couple of weeks, a month later 10-20 babies thriving, and 6 months later 20-30 fish in the 10g tank.


Best tank ever.

HTH

my .02

 

[Anonymous]

anyone who thinks that no water changes are a wise and smart thing is a blithering idiot-period

anyone who actually recommends it as a husbandry practice to beginners is triply so

 

[Anonymous]

while i understand, and even agree with the idea of a well planted tank to attempt to reduce the bulid up of nitrogenous compounds in the tank, i must say that vitz does have a point, although i feel he could have put it across in a less aggressive manor (god, i sound like a hippy)

IMO, anyone who does'nt water change and test the tank is asking for trouble, just because the tank *appears* to be healthy, you fish could be really unhappy in the tank, and you wouldn't know about it. it might not kill the right away, but could reduce the fishes quality of life, and severly reduce the life of them

 

[Anonymous]

Again a 10% water change will result in 10 times the change between water changes plus whatever is in the replacement water. What is important is to balance out the tank to where the tank does not change between water changes. In which case the water change does nothing.

This is accomplised by not doing the water change and having lotsa live plants. That way the bacteria and plants will expand to maintain the tank.

And water changes themselves are not 100% "goof proof". Sometime in the 10 years the newbie will have at least 1 fish die because of the water change. And with a probibility IMHO that some toxin will be introduced which results in a total tank crash.

Additionally I have seen a single crash in my tanks in the last 27+ years. A marine system. Ammonia rose at over 1PPm each hour. To prevent that from happening one would have to measure every hour and do a 100% water change per hour to keep ammonia less than 1ppm. what i did was move the fish to another tank, remove the toxin, and let the tank heal itself. Ammonia dropped in a day or two, nitrItes a week or so, nitrates took 6 weeks. All but two fish survived.

Massive water changes would not have prevented that. What would have prevented that was to not add the toxin. Which was added by attempting to maintain the tank. In other words leave the tank alone. :lol:

the newbies should not be given advice to rely on water changes, chemicals, filters and so on. They should be taught to rely on living plants and to not mess with the system. that is much more efective than any man made device or water change.

.02

 

[Anonymous]

Live plants are not an option for many types of fish...

Bob, can you post pics of your tank/s?

 

[Anonymous]

Live plants are not an option for many types of fish...

You mean like the malawi blue dolphin cichlid in cal's tank? :lol: The most you would have to do under extreme cases is setup a refugium to keep the fish and plants apart. But even fish that are normally not thought of as being "plant compatible" can thrive in planted tanks.

Besides so what? I don't think we should discourage newbies from plants and advise them to use chemicals, water changes, filters and so on when the most common newbie fish like plattys and guppies do just fine.

Bob, can you post pics of your tank/s?

Cal's and osboys are typical.

 

[Anonymous]

while i understand, and even agree with the idea of a well planted tank to attempt to reduce the bulid up of nitrogenous compounds in the tank, i must say that vitz does have a point, although i feel he could have put it across in a less aggressive manor (god, i sound like a hippy)

IMO, anyone who does'nt water change and test the tank is asking for trouble, just because the tank *appears* to be healthy, you fish could be really unhappy in the tank, and you wouldn't know about it. it might not kill the right away, but could reduce the fishes quality of life, and severly reduce the life of them

heh

his advice is going to screw more people than 1/2 of the idjit stores i've had the mis-pleasure to visit in my lifetime

all the more reason to make his incredibly irresponsible behavior all the more pointed out to naive trusting noobs

 

[Anonymous]

You mean like the malawi blue dolphin cichlid in cal's tank?

:roll:
Hardly...I mean like the many, MANY large, robust Central and South American cichlids that will rip any plant you can think of to shreds, or if not, completely out of the substrate. Fish that would require a planted refuguim 3 times the volume of the display tank to keep up with the waste load, and that REQUIRE high turnover mechanical filtration.

I'm glad only a limited number of freshwater noobs find their way here... :?

 

[Anonymous]

You mean like the malawi blue dolphin cichlid in cal's tank?

:roll:
Hardly...I mean like the many, MANY large, robust Central and South American cichlids that will rip any plant you can think of to shreds, or if not, completely out of the substrate. Fish that would require a planted refuguim 3 times the volume of the display tank to keep up with the waste load, and that REQUIRE high turnover mechanical filtration.

I'm glad only a limited number of freshwater noobs find their way here... :?

So what exactly is your experience with those fish and a partitioned tank where 1/3 of the tank is heavily planted?

It certainly works in my 55g mixed reef with two tangs and 0 nitrates and phosphates. It is reported to work without the partition with gold fish which are also dirty and uproot plants. it worked with my 3 angelfish in a 15g and only 15w incandescant lighting for 4 years. But then angels are the peaceful buggers.

Yet the newbies should not be told to balance and stabilise the tank right from the start with plants. And then wonder why they have to do all the work, the tank can't get cycled even with additives and 50% water changes daily. Even though they have none of the fish like you mention.

Meanwhile cal, osboy and I have tanks that are literally tank, sand, plants, water and fish. Do no water changes and they last for years with only annual tank cleanings.

 

[Anonymous]

Your methods may work in some cases, with some inhabitants Bob, but nothing is all the time, and THAT is my problem with how you approach giving advice. I gave you an example where plants will not do the trick, and to claim otherwise is to not have any experience with these fish, and to have never seen the tremendous amounts of waste they produce - period. I'm not going to argue ridiculous points with you and go in circles. I simply gave this extreme example to illustrate that you claiming your system could work in all cases is ludicrous.

Peace

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

bob, what about the other pollutants in the tank then? nitrogen compounds are not the only thing that you can get in water, you can find, at some point, pretty much every organic and inorganic compound in your tank, how do you take that into account? not every compound will be taken up by the plants, and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.

sure you may have kept fish for years, but are those fish happy? if your using the same water source all the time, surely the concentrations of a given compound found in the watersource you use will stay the same, as if it is taken up by the plants, it will be taken up again, and if it isn't then if you perform a 25litre waterchange, you take out 25 litres of 'dirty' water and put 25litres of the same back again. therefore, if you use properly treated water, what you put in the tank will be what needs to be in there, and what you take out will be what you don't want in there.

not everyone wants to have a planted tank. to suggest to a noobie that you can maintain a tank with no filtration and no water changes is just wrong, as they won't know what to do if something goes wrong. you cited an example where you removed the fish from the tank, quarentined them, and 'let the tank heal'. you never stated what caused such an excessive rise in the ammonia levels, but if that were my tank, i would have done similar, but i would have performed several 50% water changes, so that i wouldn't have to cycle the tank, or i would have taken water from an already cycled tank.

the whole point of waterchanging a tank is prevention of something going wrong, rather than curing it when it does.

you seem to be citing that water changes are a 'chore', and should only be done as a last resort, again, this is wrong, i tend to combine water changes with thorough tank inspections, and i use RO water from my LFS, so it gives me a chance to go in, see what they have for sale and such, and have a bit of a chat with them regarding my tank. can be a bit of a bad influence tho, as i went in on saturday for RO, and came out with a polyp colony and a banded coral shrimp, and also they're gonna get me a green bubble coral put asside so i can pick it up when i think my tank is ready!

also, the point of water changing is not just to take stuff out, it is also to put stuff in, rather than putting, for example, liquid plant food for the planted tank, directlt into the water, you can dilute it in replacement water, to stop it from causing a so much of a 'spike' of nutrients in the water, and to help spread it throughout the tank a bit more

 

[Anonymous]

Everything in the tank not just the nitrogen compounds will build up to 10 times the buildup between changes plus whatever is in the replacement water. Everything. Including the trace elements in the food you add which can build up to toxic levels.

The only question is whether or not live plants or a mechanical man made filter do a better job of conditioning the water. If some unknown compound was required at the parts per trillion level for some fish to spawn, we humans would not know that. If ro/di works as advertized that compound is not present in your tank. It will be in a planted tank. Just as it is in the lake the fish spawn in.

Actually water changes can maintain the tank. In my one crash a toxin was introduced when I rinsed the filter media with latex like glove that contained a toxin. the ammonia dropped to 0 two days after I rinsed the filter media with no gloves.

But still if you have an infinite supply of perfect water you can maintain the tank through water changes alone. Just constantly flush out the tank as 2-3 100% water changes per hour and the tank will be fine.

But if your tank has;
0 nitrogens,
0 phosphates,
is a net consumer of carbon dioxide and producer of oxygen in a 24 hour period,
acceptable hardness,
toxins low enough to support the fish for years,
or whatever else,

the 10% weekly water change has not produced that environment.

If you absolutely can not stand a planted tank, then setup a refugium to grow the plants out of sight.

Although I do dose calcium and baking soda in my mixed reef, I add nothing to my FW planted other than top off with tap.

I know this is hard to comprehend, but any water fit for human consumption can by used for any aqaurium or pond with these techniques. Just like lakes take much worse water with our sewage and do the same thing to produce a thriving fish population. And have been doing it with various animal life for millions of years.

With no water changes.

Just my .02