cal's FW tank lessons learned

[Anonymous]

Just an update on cal's tank.

Last november Cal lost almost all fish when he visited here, turned down the room heat and relied on the tank heater.

Last December we added a partition to form the left side as the blue dolphin side and the right side as the non blue dolphin side. And I added some anacharous plus another 3' 6500k NO tube. Prior to that only one tube was in use.

When we visited 29apr2006, the anacharous had really taken off. And there is now some moss on the right. So it appears the plants are doing much better. I also bought about 4-6 guppies from my 10g. And added 8 long fin yellow danios.

Still no water changes but he is using a pur filter on the faucet. But that should be changed every 3 months and is now over a year old.

He still has not touched the inside of the glass since the first pictures on this thread in November 2004. He is extremly happy with the ease of maintenance of this setup.

 

[Anonymous]

i myself would NEVER run a FW tank with no filtration. my GF has currently set up a 3 foot FW tank with Amazon Sword and vallis plants, and uses a canister filter on it with no problems, and has an airstone coming up through bogwood.

currently it is stocked with 3 Zebra Danio's, 4 FW angels and a bunch of tetra's, but i can't remember which ones.

IMO, not filtrating the water, and not performing water tests is irresponsible, as you have no idea what is happening with the water chemistry. this could lead to dangerous levels of waste (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites) in the tank, and solely relying on plants to 'soak up' these wastes could be detrimental to the health of the fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for you input and comments. Nice to see someone is still reading this thread.

FWIW I have ran tank for up to 6 years with a stable population of 20-30 fish in a 10g tank with this method.

 

[Anonymous]

that may be the case, but i still think you *really* should be doing at least NH3, NO2 and NO3 checks on the tank. IMO such a simple thing to do, with such a benefit to you fish can't be a bad thing, right?

FWIW, on my new reef tank, i have been keeping a log of the test results on an excel spreadsheet then converting it to a chart so i can see the trends, it's quite interesting to see how the different chemical levels change over time, also makes it easier to see what effect something has on your levels.

also, with the filter, even if you don't think you need to use it for biological filtration, its worth keeping it running for the mechanical filtration 24/7. again, if it's for the good of the fish?

 

[tazdevil]

Bob, I can't remember, when you say "stable" fish pop. How often have you had to replace fish from death etc? I think of a stable fish population as one that has had no replacements for deaths etc. Just curious, as there are several definitions to that.

 

[Anonymous]

I guess if you want too. And I do test on my 55g mixed reef. But the only thing the test results reveal is the effectiveness of my calcium/alk dosing.

Several newbies have done measurements with this system and have revealed little to no ammonia/nitrIte/nitrate spikes and phosphates as well. In several cases in FW newbies have done extensive water changes like 50-75% per day for months yet ammonia and nitrItes still remained. The addition of live plants, stopping water changes, not adding food for a week resulted in no fish losses and a nitrItes spike that lasted a few days at the most. And in a week ammonia/nitrItes were down to 0 with nitrates taking a couple of weeks to go to 0.

People who have setup marine tanks with extensive macro algaes have reported similiar results.

The question as Cal's experience shows is not what is best for the fish but what is the best methods at achieving those conditions. While still maintaining a tank that is presentable and enjoyable to humans. Plants provide those conditions with a balanced and stable system. Which does not have to be constantly tinkered with. Mechanical filtration and water changes are no where near as effective. IMHO and IME testing is not necessary. But you still can if you want.

Just my .02

 

[Anonymous]

Bob, I can't remember, when you say "stable" fish pop. How often have you had to replace fish from death etc? I think of a stable fish population as one that has had no replacements for deaths etc. Just curious, as there are several definitions to that.

Sorry. That is when starting with live bearers like plattys or guppys. 6 years later you have had a stable population of 20-30 fish with no replacements in a 10g. The population just expands to whatever the plants can support.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, still a bit dubious about this, TBH.

i can see that in an established tank, with good filtration, the balance can be achieved, i have done it myself, but you will still need to be adding nutrients to the system, as a fish tank is as close to a closed system as you are likely to get, therefore, in a very real sense, you only get out what you put in.
the only way you can add nutrients is to perform regular water changes (in a balanced system, this need only to be about 10%), and some sort of 'food' for the plants, with nutrients not found naturally in the tapwater.

the water change will take out any other toxins that occur in your tank that the nitrate/nitrite/ammonia test will not detect. there are about 110 known elements, that can be combined in an almost infinite number of ways to create chemicals, of which nitrates, nitrites and ammonia 'families' are just a tiny, tiny group. For instance, in your tapwater, there could be phosphates, which are used in very small quantities in the agricultural industry as part of a fertiliser, however, if you don't change the water in your tank, the level of phosphates could rise, as the plants will only take up a small amount of this chemical, leaving residual phosphates in the water, as the water evaporates, pure water is lost, increasing the consentration of phosphates in the body of water. if you just top up the water, you will be adding more phosphates, without removing those which exist already. in large quantities phosphates can cause chemical burns to both the plants and the fish.

you need something to move the water about the tank, powerheads or a filter will do this, otherwisethe water will stagnate, you need the flow, just to distribute the chemicals (bith good and bad) throughout the tank, as simply relying on diffusion is really not effecting enough.

you will need a filter, to filter the water (funnily enough) this will help remove the suspended detritus, and so on, in the tank, however, i did a bit of research on the net, and found the following article:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_b ... ration.htm

so it seems that Bob may, in fact be correct in his statement that they take up ammonia, but that still does not mean that you don't need to check it, just in case, esp. levels of nitrate, as the article seems to suggest that these may still be a problem, as with unplanted tanks, this IMO, seems to suggest to me that regular water changes, and testing of the water are a MUST in a planted tank.

also, in a planted tank, speaking from experience, to remove the mulm from the bottom, it is a lot easier to just water change the tank than to try to take it out by hand or any other method.

IMO, no matter how you set up the tank, there is no way of getting round regular maintainance of some kind, but depending how you set up the tank depends on what maintainance you perform, but a water change is a must, how would you like it if you were forced to swim in, breath and drink your own bodily wastes?!

 

[Anonymous]

I know it's hard to believe. But until you have see 20-30 fish for 6 years in a 10g with no filtration, no circulation, tap water, and no water changes you just can't understand.

My 55g reef has unmeasureable phosphates with no water changes and using tap water for top offs and the initial mixing. Even though my tap water is reported to have 30ppm phosphates and pegged the test kit at 5 ppm.

Sure I do a yearly tank cleaning. a little algae and mulm on the bottom. Just for looks. The mulm doesn't seem to bother anything.

The water is not stagnent, does not smell, and is clear. The top feeding plattys/guppies clean up the initial surface scum in a week.

Water changes will not prevent the build up of anything. For instance if you change 10% of the water per week the tank will build up to 10 times the weekly change plus whatever is in the replacement water. So if you have 1 ppm/day (7ppm/week) of nitrate or phosphates that are not being consumed by the plant life, the tank will eventually have 70ppm before the water change then 63 after the water change then rise to 70ppm before the next change. Plus whatever is in the replacement water.

Additionally by not doing water changes any water fit for human consumption is fine. No need fo RO/DI. Simply because the tank is not dependant on the quality of the water being used. The water is conditioned by the plant life. And by just doing small top offs those conditions are excellent.

The importance of plant life consuming ammonia can not be overstated. Plants actually prefer ammonia but in an established system nitrates are all that are available. But say something changes. Like you add fish, or something dies or whatever. The rise in ammonia is directly consumed by the plants preventing the deap nitrogen spikes and allowing the aerobic bacteria to catch up should the change be permanent. This also interrupts additional deaths due to ammonia poising and therefore prevents tank crashes.

Finally any ole ion is bioaccumulated by the plant's "sucking in" nutrients. Allowing the tank to become suitable for any livestock including reef corals and FW inverts.

Sure you have to consider substrates for soft water and hard water fish. But for the common guppies/platties that simply is not an issue. Some tetras I have used peat to soften the water. Cal's tank does have the chiclid in it which is doing well. But others may require a calcium carbonate substrate to harden up the water.

It's hard to understand in this world of filters and water changes. But it does work and work well. Cal and osboy are not going back.

My .02

 

[tazdevil]

I agree with some of what Bob presents, as it applies to a FW planted tank. However

No need fo RO/DI.

I would never recommend, at least not from what comes out of my tap. The PO4 levels are way to high to even consider it. Nitrate levels aren't all that great either. This is specific to my area, your values (hopefully) aren't where mine are. (The PO4 levels and Nitrate levels have always been high, a few times, too high for human consumption, the lawn loves it though.)

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with some of what Bob presents, as it applies to a FW planted tank. However

No need fo RO/DI.

I would never recommend, at least not from what comes out of my tap. The PO4 levels are way to high to even consider it. Nitrate levels aren't all that great either. This is specific to my area, your values (hopefully) aren't where mine are. (The PO4 levels and Nitrate levels have always been high, a few times, too high for human consumption, the lawn loves it though.)

again 30ppm (edit phosphate) in my tap 0 in my reef.

And I have had these FW tanks in 1/2 dozen cities in the US since the late 70's. With exactly the same results.

The quality of the input water is not important in these systems.

Perhaps you should have considered this system.

But just my .02

 

[Anonymous]

ok, i think i can see the logic in this, you have basically turned the entire tank into a biological filter? now that i have had it explained to me in a different way by my GF, i thing i can see the logic behind it, she works in the local aquarium so i think she knows what she is talking about!

one question tho, what do you do about CO2 at night?

she even said that no water changes can work as well, however, she does say that you do need to be experienced to pull it off, and that you need to know you tank very well.

i myself prefer the filter method myself, just because thats the way i have always done it, because i didn't have much sucess with a planted tank, i might give it a go again one day tho.

how do you maintain the plants then?

 

[tazdevil]

30 ppm nitrate or PO4? It's the PO4 that gives me the most issues.

 

[Anonymous]

hang on, yeah, i just noticed that. mine peaked at 0.5ppm, and is now at 0 in my reef

30 seems well above expected, even in tap

 

[Anonymous]

ok, i think i can see the logic in this, you have basically turned the entire tank into a biological filter? now that i have had it explained to me in a different way by my GF, i thing i can see the logic behind it, she works in the local aquarium so i think she knows what she is talking about!

gfs always make sense. spouses less so.

one question tho, what do you do about CO2 at night?

The co2 does build up at night just like in lakes, bays and shallow deapths of the ocean. As long as the ph recovers so that in a 24 hr period the tank is a net consumer of co2 and producer of o2 in a 24 hr period, that is fine. the max level of co2 at night is still much less than the minimum level without the plants. Even though the ph swing is greater.

she even said that no water changes can work as well, however, she does say that you do need to be experienced to pull it off, and that you need to know you tank very well.

You simply overwhelm the tank with plants right from the start. Which most people do not do. I look at the plants and fish to know the tank.

i myself prefer the filter method myself, just because thats the way i have always done it, because i didn't have much sucess with a planted tank, i might give it a go again one day tho.

how do you maintain the plants then?

The fish maintain the plants. The plants maintain the fish.

 

[Anonymous]

30 ppm nitrate or PO4? It's the PO4 that gives me the most issues.

It was phosphate. Again 30ppm phosphate in my tap water yet 0 in my 55g mixed reef. No water changes and an in tank refugium with macros.

It is not important what is in the replacement water. What is important is what is in the tank.

Will edit.

.02

 

[Anonymous]

just a 'reminder' re the tank pic....


that has to be one of the filthiest bottomed fw plant tanks i've ever seen

 

[Anonymous]

IMO, RO water all the way. £2.50 for a 25 liter drum, and i know there is nothing in the water i didn't put there.

oh, and my GF is always right, it's just easier that way........!

 

[snoopyandlucy3]

This is a very interesting read! I have learned alot from this. I'm writing regarding my 55 gal Cummity Tank. It has been up and running for 2 weeks now. I used gravel and water from 20 Tank that I upgraded from and plants. My ammonia and nitrites still not 0 yet. I also put in a Bio Wheel Filter. Its been running 1 week now. Still no change. From reading these Threads Im starting to think maybe i just need more plants. Do you have any suggestions on how i could bring ammonia and nitrites to 0. Right now all test show 1 notch up from 0. PH is cool and steady at 7.
I would send a pic but all my pictures are too bid for this site

 

[Anonymous]

what have you got in the tank so far?

there are two ways you can go, my way, or beaslbob's.

now, both are tried and tested ways of getting a tank going, and both are fine, it just comes down to personal preference, although, both do have one thing in common, you need patience!