cal's FW tank lessons learned

[Anonymous]

Just though I would share the experiences of my wife's son, Cal, and his Fw tank. Cal lives about a 4 hour drive from us to I only got glimpses of the tank every couple of months or so when we visited them.

After seeing my tanks especially the FW and the way his three year old son enjoyed the tank, he decided to get a FW. He got a 30g and at first use the "normal" methods of filters water changes etc etc etc.

Although he did have the usual (for "normal" methods) algae problems at first, things took a real turn for the worse as he started working 6 days/week, 10 hours days, and additionally having to drive 1 ½ hours one way to work. After a few months the tank was a mess. Huge algae all the time and fish not surviving long.

During a visit several months ago he stated he wished I could set up his tank like mine are. So I bought the play sand ($3), and egg crate ($10), a 4' utility fixture ($10 with two tubes), and about $30 in plants. And set up the tank like my FW leiden systems. The next day the tank was starting the usual clear up but I was worried it was not clearing up as fast as it should.

This was confirmed a couple of days later when he stated the tank was not clear. After a couple of weeks the tank was still not clear so I suggested he cut the light off until it clears. This went on for months with the tank never really clearing up.

When we visited about a month ago the tank was almost clear but what I noticed was that most of the plants were gone. So I bought another set of plant and added then. Two days later Cal called bragging about the tank. Stating that it is awesome and has never looked better. Further that people visiting their house were also commenting on how great the tank looked.

The attached picture was taken last weekend. Sure it is not show type aquascaping but the tank is truly awesome. The castle decoration you see at the right was added three weeks ago. It is absolutely clean with no algae build up at all.

Fish are live bearers, tiger barb, zebra damio (sp), three "blue dolphins" (African chiclids (spelling))

I confirmed the following with Cal. The glass has not been touched in six months, no water changes, tap water (possibly filtered with a faucet end pure or britta filter), no circulation, no filtration. He does use a heater because they keep the house cool during the day when no one is home. And he almost fried the tank because the initial heater adjustment was too high. So the only maintenance the last three weeks is only replacing evaporative water and feeding the fish.


The lesson learned with this tank is that plant life and plant life by itself can maintain a system. And further, that if you do not start out with plant life then you may have to keep trying the plant life until the plant life catches up with the system. Too many people timidly try plant life then quit before the full benefits are realized. and even further that experience is basically the same experience I had with my 55g salt mixed reef system.

 

[Anonymous]

I can't say much for the design/ aquascaping, but the plants look healthy.

 

[Anonymous]

Any test that uses only one sample is good for showing what is possible, but tells you nothing about what is best. And at one month I would have reservations that you are even showing that its possible. A year of smooth sailing and maybe you can say that.

 

[Anonymous]

Any test that uses only one sample is good for showing what is possible, but tells you nothing about what is best. And at one month I would have reservations that you are even showing that its possible. A year of smooth sailing and maybe you can say that.

Understand Dan but you are ignoreing my sig below. What will probalby happen to this tank is a gradual build up of a inert mulm on the bottom and after six month a hard crusty algae will start showing up on the glass. Just for looks he can syphon out the mulm or just leave it there. He has already not touched the glass in six months so the algae calcius algae build up should not be a problem. but even if it does show up a 1-2 times a year glass scraping is much less the other "more normal" systems.

What was really unique about this particular system is the extreme amount of time it took for the plants to control the system. In systems setup for less than a month, the water clears and algae is gone in days. And algae never show up when the plants are in the system a week before fish are added.

My current 10g has been running for three years now. I have ran systems for up to six continuous years. So it is not just one tank for one month. The lesson of this tank is get the plant life in there sooner not later.

 

[Anonymous]

That's fine, except that it overlooks the thousands of tanks set up and run exactly the same way that are buried with algae. I have one on my desk right now! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

That's fine, except that it overlooks the thousands of tanks set up and run exactly the same way that are buried with algae. I have one on my desk right now! :lol:

Dan:

Understand understand.

Just as this tank was for months. This is an example of how to correct the algae problem. The lesson learned is that plant life can clear up the system. But that plant life has to "get ahead" of things like algae.

Bob

 

[gpodio]

There's many ways of balancing a tank and I think you have found a balance with this tank, at least for now. It's quite possible to have a low light planted tank sustain itself for some time, however the nutrients do need to be replenished at some point. Initially a new tank has a sterile substrate which is the biggest hurdle to overcome for plants and I think it is likely one of the main reasons why the plants are doing well for you now. The substrate has accumulated mulm, bacteria and much organics from the water, fish and previous plants that died and left they roots behind...

Still I also agree with Dan that it isn't always as easy as it sounds in your post. Light levels, fish load, feeding and plant volume all play their role in this balance and therefore one tank may behave far differently than another even when apparently setup and maintained in the same way.

I have a similar tank myself, it receives a 50% water change every 4 months or so and I replenish nutrients in the substrate with 20 Flourish Tabs every 4 months. Initially the tank ran for a year following setup without requiring additional nutrients, this because I setup it up using mulm from established tanks and quite a bit of organics, peat and nutrients. Water changes I do because of the increasing hardness due to topping off with tap water, if I had RO water at this location I would likely not need to do any water changes as nutrient levels in the water column are constantly low. The water however would also become quite yellow from the wood that is in the tank.

Here's a picture of the tank I'm referring to, it's in my wife's office so I had to make it low maintenance.

This is just after a pruning/water change:

And a couple months later:

The fish load is quite large to help provide macros for the plants (they were all hiding when these pics were taken :? ), this is helping a lot too.

Giancarlo

 

[Anonymous]

gpodio:

Awesome tanks!!!

You are correct and as Cal's tank shows, a balance can be hard to acheive. What I have always done is basically go slow. Start with lotsa plant life and use tap water. Then after a week add a single fish. Then at three weeks add a mate. Feed very little and let the baby fish grow up in the tank. And adjust lighting and feeding to keep the water clear.

That way the plants life and fish can reach a balance.

Edit: I also don't have wood in the tank. I'll take your word on the yellowing. I also added peat on my first leiden. Water did have a yellowish/brown cast to it. Was told it helped lower ph and make the water softer. Now I just use playsand. The only difference I have noticed is the water does not have the yellow tint with straight sand.

Also there will and have been adjustments to my planted tanks. But extremely minor compared to mechanically filtered setups. Rearranging or replacing some plants every six months is usually required. To me that is a whole lot easier than weekly water changes, ro/di water, filters dripping water all the way to the sink and so on.

And on my FW i never test for anything. And I am almost there on my reef. Just took me a couple of years to learn with the reef.

 

[gpodio]

I planted very heavily from day one, but remember my substrate was certainly not sterile, closer to a mud pie really ;-)

I added fish until my nitrates were stable above 0 and CO2 levels were acceptable (over a period of about 3 months). I do have more light than the regular low light tank so fish numbers had to be greater. I ended up with 40 cardinals, 40 rasboras, 20 rummynose tetras, 2 SAEs, 4 badis badis, 2 angelfish, 3 cories, 20 ottos and god knows how many platties left over from cycling. I think you can see the fish better in some of the other photos on my website, at feeding time you really get an idea of how populated this tank is.

Giancarlo

 

[Anonymous]

gpodio: First of all Cal and his family commented on how awesome your tank was. So now that they have a going, easy to maintain system, they are starting to get interested in more colorful plants and aquascaping and so on. Perhaps you can suggest some plants to add some color or whatever.


For everyone else there was an additional lesson learned plus I wanted to give an update since my wife and I visited over xmass.

First Cal did run a filter for a day or two. Seems they still had an airpump and air stone in the system. And over by the powerstrip was a plug not plugged in. So someone plugged it in. Well that was to the air pump which stirred up the entire tank. And really created a cloudy mess. So he ran a little $10 filter for a couple of days to clear it up. Lesson learned is to not use air pumps at least with this system. Apparently, the lack of circulation is a much bigger factor in this system then I realized. I have always used no circulation or mechanical filtration just because that is what I found works. But I now think allowing the waste to settle and decompose is important. It feeds the plants and the water stays clearer.

The xmass picture below is a little better exposed. There is now a small amount of algae in that decoration on the right. Plus the anacorous is starting to become "stringy" but the amason sword has grown. And there has been some disappearing fish. With a tetra, tiger barb and ciclids (sp) that is to be expected. There has been no erattic swimming, rapid breathing or other signs of distress. And no dead fish found in the tank. they just disappeared. So it looks like predation.

later edit. no added above. All fish are behaving normal some simply are not there. And corrected some of my usual spelling errors.

added: Cal's children took pictures to school to show all their friends. So it must be a pretty good system.

 

[Anonymous]

finally got it working. (previous post)

 

[Anonymous]

Ok I'll try it the mor normal way. then try to fix my IE to allow access.

 

[gpodio]

gpodio: First of all Cal and his family commented on how awesome you tank was. so now that they got a going easy to maintain system, they are starting to get interested in more colorful plants and aquascaping and so on. Perhaps you can suggest some plants to add some color or whatever.

Some colorful plants that come to mind which do not require "special" care as far as lighting, CO2, fertilization....

- Echinodorus Ozelot or one of many other Echinodorus (rose, rubin, red flame...)
- Ludwigia Glandulosa
- Ludwigia Mullertii (most ludwigias would be worth a try)
- Limnophila Aromatica
- Crypts (there are several brown, copper, orange colored crypts)
- Hygrophila Polysperma var. rosanervig (Sunset Hygro)

You should have no problem finding any of these on aquabid.com

For everyone else there was an additional lesson learned plus I wanted to give an update since my wife and I visited over xmass.

First Cal did run a filter for a day or two. Seems they still had an airpump and air stone in the system. And over by the powerstrip was a plug not plugged in. So someone plugged it in. Well that was to the air pump which stirred up the entire tank. And really created a cloudy mess. So he ran a little $10 filter for a couple of days to clear it up. Lesson learned is to not use air pumps at lease with this system. Apparently the lack of circulation is a much bigger factor in this system then I realized. I have always used no circulation or mechanical filtration just because that is what I found out works. But I not think allowing the waste to settle and decompose is important. It feeds the plants and the water stays clearer.

I always filter my tanks so I cannot give you a comparison, however the thought of letting everything settle on a substrate as compact and fine as sand which will likely not let it sink to the bottom would scare me over the long haul. I hover over a substrate with the gravel vac once or twice a year to remove waste that has not made it's way to the bottom layers. Sitting on top of the substrate I doubt it will do much good to the plants.

The xmass picture below is a little better exposed. There is now a small amount of algae in that decoration on the right. Plus the anacorous is starting to become "stringy" but the amason sword has grown.

One of the plants you learn to hate it's sold in just about every store yet is one of the more stubborn plants to grow in low light, you'd think stores would carry easier plants... specially when all they carry is this one and a couple other invasive weeds. Yes it gets stringy and likely will end up making a mess when it looses all those "needles"

And there has been some disappearing fish. With a tetra, tiger barb and ciclids (sp) that is to be expected. There have been erattic swimming, rapid brathing ot other signs of distress. And no dead fish found in the tank. they just disappeared. So it looks like predation.

I'd look into the eratic swimming and rapid breathing signs, check ammonia and nitrite. Without filtration you are depending on the plants to utilize all the ammonia created by the fish and other waste, kind of dangerous IMO.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo

 

[Anonymous]

gpodio


thanks for the response. My home computer finally disconnected itself from the internet or I would have responded sooner.

I agree with you on the anacorus.

I have had unfiltered tanks run for six years with sand substrait. Works fine. Also no mechanical circulation such as an air stone or powerhead. Just like Cal's tank.

I also misstyped. There was no erratic behavior. Sorry and I edited the original post. The fish are behaving normal.

 

[Anonymous]

just an update. Added some more plants to get some reds in there.

the two (of three original) blue dolphin african cichlids are still there.

Small numbers of fish to come up missing. So obviously the mixture is aggressive enough to be a problem.

And the fish do keep eating the plants. Just as I experienced with a tang and macros im my 55g salt/reef.

There is a baby live bearer or two showing up.

Tank is still clear, glass has still not been scraped or cleaned. No nuisance algaes, Tap water, no water changes, no filter running.

So it looks like right now the plants will have to be refreshed every few months or so.

Cal is still satisfied with both the ease of maintenance and the apearance. Much better than the situation before we converted it to a planted operation.

 

[fishfanatic2]

As for aquascaping, just one thing, maybe this is personal preference, but ya could take out the plant stakes with the name on them. :lol: Just save them if you want to ever know the ID of a plant, the picture usually does the rest.

 

[Anonymous]

I planted very heavily from day one, but remember my substrate was certainly not sterile, closer to a mud pie really ;-)

I added fish until my nitrates were stable above 0 and CO2 levels were acceptable (over a period of about 3 months). I do have more light than the regular low light tank so fish numbers had to be greater. I ended up with 40 cardinals, 40 rasboras, 20 rummynose tetras, 2 SAEs, 4 badis badis, 2 angelfish, 3 cories, 20 ottos and god knows how many platties left over from cycling. I think you can see the fish better in some of the other photos on my website, at feeding time you really get an idea of how populated this tank is.

Giancarlo

badis badis rock!!! 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Just an update on cal's tank.

although he has lost some fish. (with no bodies ever found). the tank continues to do well. As can be seen in these pictures, the anacorus is down to a single strand but the amazon swords have expanded greatly. the blue dolphins ate the anachorus. there is also only one blue dolphin left of the original three. The lesson learned is to use harder water (calcium carbonate substrait) and protect the plants even if with a refug of some type.

Cal reported he did turn on the filter for half a day to help clear the water after a top off. Other than that the filter has remained off.

On thing that was suprising is he reports that he usually only adds water every 6 weeks to three months. So even with an open top the evaporation rate is very low.

The tank still uses just a single tube 6500k. the fixture in a utility shop light cut down to 36" with only one tube installed.

He still has not scrapped or cleaned the glass.

this first picture in an overall above to the right looking down shot. As prediced the sand does have a "mulm" buildup. there is very slight algae in the decoration in the right hand corner.

and this shot has a lighter exposure of just the tank area

both shots are hand held with an olympis om/2 film camera asa800 available light. (no flash the only light is the utility fixture)

 

[Anonymous]

why isn't the water clear ?

why keep known obligate herbivors (the cyrtocara moorii) with plants ?

why stock aggressive fish with fish they will eat ?

what happened to most of the plant mass ?

:roll:

 

[Anonymous]

why isn't the water clear ?

why keep known obligate herbivors (the cyrtocara moorii) with plants ?

why stock aggressive fish with fish they will eat ?

what happened to most of the plant mass ?

:roll:

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. the top off "stirred up" the mulm on the substrait. So he ran the filter for a couple of days. It has been my experience in these tank the mulm would have settled out in less than a day.

the pictures shown represent the normal appearance of the tank.

Your other questions are normal, valid, and already answered.

My analysis is basically the tank has reached or is going to a balanced condition. Where very little maintenance is required. After all no algae, clear water, and 2-3 months between top offs is extremely low maintenance. Just what a person needs who has a job and family.