• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

georgelc86

Advanced Reefer
Location
Throggs Neck, BX
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Wow, what a thread.

Wolverine, in my opinion. I think you did get hit with ich and I can understand how multiple fish can go down in a short period of time because it happened to me and I didnt have any new equipment or any possiblity of chemical leeching. It just happened. I have also added new sand to my display before, 5 lbs, with no deaths or signs of stress. I just did the best I could which was freshwater dip my infected occupants and place them in a hospital bucket treated with Melafix for a few days. When all was said and done, I had my bluestreak wrasse, yellow tang and bluegreen chromis left. This is the advice I gave myself and I will give to you. Just leave it alone for awhile. Sometimes we just need to take a step back and leave it be. Whether it be our tanks or anything else. You know I mean. I left my tank alone for about two months before I added any inverts, corals or fish. And right now its all good. At this time the way the thread got carried away, you just gotta take a breathe.

Not much of advice but thats the best I got right now.
 

kimoyo

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 100%
26   0   0
No disrespect georgelc86, can someone who didn't just sign up in Dec 2007 please explain how ich can wipeout every fish in a tank at the same exact time? While some fish are only exposed to the it for a few days. If I'm wrong I'll apologize.
 

inkblue

Rice Planter
Location
Philippines
Rating - 98.6%
145   2   0
Once I got these 'free' fishies from a photographer who bought it from PetCo. BAD idea. The fish had ich, and one by one, my fish got it and died. It didn't happen all at once because they would get it, try to fight it, lose and then die :(

Took a couple of weeks to wipe out that tank... :mad: NEVER again will I get 'free' fish
 

georgelc86

Advanced Reefer
Location
Throggs Neck, BX
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
No disrespect georgelc86, can someone who didn't just sign up in Dec 2007 please explain how ich can wipeout every fish in a tank at the same exact time? While some fish are only exposed to the it for a few days. If I'm wrong I'll apologize.

Kimoyo, no disrepect...

1) Just because I signed up in December 2007 does not mean that I bought my tank and started this hobby that day. Been doing it on and off since I was 12. On my own without forums such as MR.

2) MR was created to help and inform each other not go on personal crusades and wage war.

3) I am only sharing my personal observations in a case that was similar to Wolverine's instance. Nor did I state that the fish I lost were all within a matter of minutes. In fact it took about 4 days. With that said please refer back to statement number 2.

All I am doing is offering advice and personal experiences. I dont have a certificate that states I am a Marine Biologist nor do I present any of my statements as professional accredidated research. If there is a member in MR that is in fact a Marine Biologist please respond to the this thread and tell us all exactly what happen to this guys tank.

And to insinuate that someone who just signed up shouldnt be offering advice is actually quite disgusting and goes completely agaisnt what this forum was created for.
 

KathyC

Moderator
Location
Barnum Island
Rating - 100%
200   0   0
This thread was started because a reefer discovered his fish sick and then they died and he wanted to know why.

I could be wrong about this, but I doubt it. We have at least 3 reefers with the same type of fish that are now dead. We have 1 source and the fish there are still fine.

Not many fish diseases that we hear about on forums kill fish as fast as Brooklynella, also called 'Clownfish Disease'.
From all I've read Brooklynella is most likely brought on by stress.

We stress our fish in many ways, especially new ones and considering how sensitive clowns are, it is even more important that we acclimate them properly and keep stress as low as possible.
Water heating due to tank lights and then water cooling off at night.
Failure to have a heater in the tank to regulate colder nighttime temps.
Transporting fish to our homes inappropriately.
Rearranging things in our tanks.
Doing a water change with water that doesn't match all parameters, especially temp.
The list goes on & on.

George..I am no marine biologist, but I do believe in what Bob Fenner says and he wrote the following article...

/The Conscientious Marine Aquarist
"Clownfish Disease" (and other's), Brooklynellosis
Maroon%20with%20Brooklynellosis.JPG
By Bob Fenner​
Clown with Brooklynellosis​

"If wishes were fishes, we'd all have full tanks", one of my few (if any) original statements. And, if I had one large pet-fish wish it would be that hobbyists would "cast their votes" for cultured (read that tank bred and reared) livestock as opposed to wild-collected. Such choices make imminent sense even disregarding possible savings, wear and tear on natural stocks, environments... Captive-produced fishes and non-fish specimens are hardier, more adaptable to aquarium conditions... liable to accept all forms of prepared foods and live longer, happier, more out-going lives in your systems than ones caught out of the seas.
An extreme example of this differential survivability is the subfamily of damselfishes we call clowns. This group of 28 species has an absolutely dismal survival record being collected from the wild... contrasted with phenomenal vitality of captive-produced stocks.
Incidental Collection Mortality:
Reliable numbers are as rare as "hen's teeth" in the way of losses along the chain of custody, collection, holding, shipping, re-bagging... of wild marines to their final homes. However I would hazard a guess that easily half of Clownfishes succumb from collective stress, mishandling and parasitic complications traveling the few to several days it takes to go from the reef to retailer. It is rare to visit a marine livestock wholesaler and not view wild clowns in various degrees of dying.
Dying from what? Who can state how much a negative influence being caught away from ones anemone is? All clownfish species are obligate mutualistic symbionts with species of large sea anemones in the wild. Of the multiple insults of rough netting, crowding with other livestock, variable and diminished water quality, starvation (most marines are not fed in anticipation of sale, transit)? Compared with tank-bred specimens (some of which will actually spawn in the bag while being moved), many wild clowns are lost while being shipped. Add to this induced stress the presence and proliferation of external and internal parasites and you can understand why so few wild-collected Clownfishes live for long in captivity.
Clownfish parasite loads include the "usual suspect" twin scourges of marine aquarium keeping: Cryptocaryoniasis (white spot or marine ich), and Amyloodinium (velvet), as well as a few other protozoans, seen all-too often on other wild-caught fishes. Additionally, there is a protozoan infestation so closely associated (and common) with Clownfishes that it's often called "clownfish disease". This prevalent external parasite commonly occurs along with the stress of collection and importation, but can occur consequent to any trauma.
Not to leave out their mention, there are internal worm diseases of Clownfishes (Wilkerson (1998) restates a figure of internal worm infection of 70-85% in wild-captured Amphiprionines.), various nematodes, tapes, thorny-headed parasitic species... And isopod crustaceans, mainly secondary bacterial and true fungal complaints as well. For the most part these are not of primary concern to aquarists dealing in wild stocks, as the former are largely untreatable and the latter avoidable by diligent quarantine and system maintenance.
Brooklynellosis, Not Related To New York:
The condition of having an infestation of the protozoan Brooklynella hostilis. Characterized by its shape (oval with a dorso-ventrally flattened anterior end), small size (56 to 86 by 32 to 50 um), mode of transport and morphology (covered by small cilia) on a microscopic level. Symptomatically, host fishes appear to bear skin lesions, a thick whitish mucus coating (Brooklynellosis is also known as "turbidity of the skin" disease), gasp near the surface (the gills are said to be the first attacked), are lethargic, refuse to eat, lose color, often succumbing with hours to a day or two after being initially diagnosed. Importantly, many of these symptoms are shared with other parasitic conditions like marine ich, and even more significantly, unlike most marine maladies that can be cured with copper treatments, Brooklynellosis cannot.
Specific identification requires microscopic examination of the parasites, made by wet-mount of mucus, skin from infected fishes. Brooklynella are heart- or kidney-shaped of 56 to 86 by 32 to 50 microns. They present a large oval macronucleus and several micronuclei and other endoplasmic organelles as well as a prominent adhesion organ on the posterior-ventral area.
Host Specificity, Not Clowns Alone:
This condition is most associated with Clownfishes, but is recorded from other fish groups. Angelfishes, Jawfishes, tangs, seahorses among others will host and perish from Brooklynella if not treated in a timely manner. A friend in the hobby asked me recently why there isn't more written on this parasite in the scientific literature. There has been scarce little more than the original description of the new genus and species by Lom and Nigrelli back in 1970. Part of (my or the) explanation for such a dearth of investigation is the lack of food-fish importance of the principal group of fishes (clowns) afflicted. The hobby side is likely explained by an a condition of "live and let die" with so many aquarists entering and quickly exiting the marine hobby there is likely just new customers w/ no input from the old coming and going.
Treatment:
All new fishes should be quarantined, isolated in a separate system for a good two weeks before exposing them to established systems. As regards wild-collected Clownfishes and Seahorses this is a particular concern. In almost all cases a preventative pH-adjusted freshwater baths (Fenner 1989, 97, 98) in process of acclimation and placing of new fishes in quarantine eliminates this and other external parasitic problems. If Brooklynella expresses itself on your fishes in quarantine or a main-display setting it is necessary to act quickly to effect a cure by chemical treatment. As mentioned earlier, copper is largely ineffective in treating for this protozoan. The most efficacious cure is made by using formalin solution in either dips/baths (in freshwater or marine) or more dangerously, in administering the formalin to a system (with no invertebrates, algae, live rock present). Stock solutions of formalin (formaldehyde) are generally about 37% composition, and can be used as dips/baths of one cc. per gallon. Baths should extend for a minimum of fifteen minutes, perhaps as long as thirty... with you present (lest the animal/s need to be removed due to stress) and mechanical aeration (bubblers, airstones) added to the bath.
Cloze:
Yes, some Clownfishes are still wild-collected, and need be... for broodstock and for advanced aquatics studies for species not under culture. But the vast majority of keepers of these fishes will be night and day more successful trying captive-produced stock. Nowadays the dollar cost of wild versus human-made is about on par... but there the differences starkly begin. Avoid biological diseases like Brooklynellosis entirely by buying tank-bred stock. If you find yourself electing or needing to process wild-collected Clownfishes, do your best to eliminate their parasite fauna through freshwater dips, quarantine and if necessary chemical treatment.

____________________________________________

Can we all please just get back to reefing?
 

georgelc86

Advanced Reefer
Location
Throggs Neck, BX
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Kathy, after reading the article you provided I would have to agree with you that this may have been a Brooklnella infection. Just by looking at the photo you provided I see similarities to the appearance of my fish during that infection. Its just a shame that this thread somewhat turned into a pissing contest. Either way, outside of the personal bickering and loosing sight of what the main topic of conversation is, this thread is just a reminder to all of our reefers new and old that QTing really should be our first step to creating the beautiful tanks that we all aspire to have.
 

Wolverine57

Advanced Reefer
Location
Tobyhanna, PA
Rating - 98.4%
246   4   0
Here is my last input on this thread..Thank you to the following MR member here who provided me with the necessary information to get a better understanding or let say, what precaution I should take with any live stock from wherever I buy from.

Anyway Thank you to the following:
KathyC, Marrone, Georgelc86, Juan319, Jonan, Latino277, Inkblue and HOF..once again I appreciate your feedback. As KathyC stated this thread was intended to get answer. Most of you here I have met, and are really are great people/friends and we at one pointed did some business transaction and some multiples. I apologize if I was out of line, no disrespect to anyone of you. I will be at ALL frag swap with a name tag, and you will see me there...Semper Fidelis...U.S.M.C.
 

Bikinisalt

Always Overfeeding
Rating - 100%
57   0   0
I think Kathy is 100% correct. I purchased a Asfur Angel from a vendor here that had ick (My bad for not QT the fish, trusting the vendor and not looking at it carefully in the first place) and between Oct 31 to Nov 15th I lost a Lamark angel, black shoulder tang, convict tang, emperor angel, blue face angel, powder blue tang, flame angel all because of this one fish. A couple of others came down with it also, but was able to fight it off.

It does take some time for ick to start taking out fish, they are not all going to die in one shot. I think it was not ick to begin with and had to be Brooklynellosis like Kathy is stating.
 
Last edited:

Dace

Advanced Reefer
Location
Manhattan
Rating - 99.7%
393   1   0
Just some thoughts. I am sorry to hear that anyone has lost any live animals, with that being said. as previously stated Ick will not wipe out a tank of fish all on the same day.But Especially if the fish being introduce has it and the fish in tank don't but Brooklynella in the other hand can be a different story. What it all comes down to is we need to QT every fish we introduce into our systems. If you don't, then the first finger you have to point is to yourself. I'm not here defend any of the parties but on personal history with dealing with Jim, I don't think he would of sold a fish that may have had any issue's if he was aware the it was sick. With that being said, i did read that he was going to work something out for you Johnny which only shows that even though the fish he still is holding in his tank are not sick, he's willing to work with you which is a plus in my eye's. as for other comments i see that are stated here in the aftermath of trying to find out what really happen are concerning because at this point it could have been so many things, Like Stress due to Transportation, temperature of the water,Newly installed sump,fish could have been in early stages of being sick, Adding the sand(A quick note. I saw someone post that he added 5lbs of sand with no ill effect, I just added 480lbs of Caribe Sea sand into a sump for a friends setup. and 4 bags of that sand would have wiped out an entire system due to the sand having a ammonia spike in it). All i can say is it's unfortunate, but it's in the past. Jim stated he would do right by you and work something out, so be it. we learn from our mistakes.
PS. I know the lost for you is disappointing, we all have our lost. I lost about $8000.00 in live stock for using some Product to put a band-aid fix on it to get rid of red algae about 2 years ago and i learned from my mistake, next time i will just find the problem and fix it. Jim also was one of the Great MR ppl who help my system get back to what it was.....
My 2 cents
Wow, what a thread.

Wolverine, in my opinion. I think you did get hit with ich and I can understand how multiple fish can go down in a short period of time because it happened to me and I didnt have any new equipment or any possiblity of chemical leeching. It just happened. I have also added new sand to my display before, 5 lbs, with no deaths or signs of stress. I just did the best I could which was freshwater dip my infected occupants and place them in a hospital bucket treated with Melafix for a few days. When all was said and done, I had my bluestreak wrasse, yellow tang and bluegreen chromis left. This is the advice I gave myself and I will give to you. Just leave it alone for awhile. Sometimes we just need to take a step back and leave it be. Whether it be our tanks or anything else. You know I mean. I left my tank alone for about two months before I added any inverts, corals or fish. And right now its all good. At this time the way the thread got carried away, you just gotta take a breathe.

Not much of advice but thats the best I got right now.
 
Last edited:

Dace

Advanced Reefer
Location
Manhattan
Rating - 99.7%
393   1   0
Once I got these 'free' fishies from a photographer who bought it from PetCo. BAD idea. The fish had ich, and one by one, my fish got it and died. It didn't happen all at once because they would get it, try to fight it, lose and then die :(

Took a couple of weeks to wipe out that tank... :mad: NEVER again will I get 'free' fish
Don, what difference doe's it make Werther the fish are free or you bought them from the most reputable LFS store, if you don't qt the fish your in the same boat.. (speaking of boat's, Boat season 4 months away..lol) I'll take free fish any day. I'd just QT them.
 

kimoyo

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 100%
26   0   0
I wonder, am I the only that thinks Johnny started this thread just to get $75 back?

Georgelc86 - I'll explain what being a member before Dec 2007 will do for you since it seems you haven't looked back at the history of my posts or Wolverine's the guy your standing up for. If you looked back at Johnny's post you would see that this isn't the first time he's done this, you would also see someone who bought (or got for free) frags from hobbyists to turn around and resell those exact same frags on here for more money, you would see someone who has a sump being made (or already made) by one vendor and then asks for a quote from someone else. And his explanation via pm the day his upgrade thread went up when called on his actions....

wolverine57 said:
Its tipical for a buyer to shop for the best and pay as little as possible. I'm sure you have!! ..... My situation is different, I have so much I can allucate for this hobby! I pay mortgage for a house in the poconos and a rental here in the Bronx! Plus car payments...this is part of it.

And since I didn't reply via pm, I'll say it now, no I don't go looking for the cheapest and quickest thing in this hobby even though I have other bills to pay.

Did Johnny every answer any questions posted about his upgrade? How did he acclimate the fish? How did he transport them on Sunday when it was freezing out? Where were the fish when he dismantled the entire tank to drill the holes? On a 24G tank was there a heater to keep it warm for extended periods of time? Were there any contaminates in the sump? How long did he soak the sump before and how long since the sump was built was was it put online?

Could the fish have died from Brook? Sure, but if thats the case whats the reason they got it in the first place.

There are so many potential points of hobbyists failure in his story and yet he's said nothing about any of it. But everything is okay now because Jim is going to take care of him. Personally, I don't see how these guys deal with it. Then again maybe they don't have their own bills and Johnny is the only one with a mortgage.
 
Last edited:

Wolverine57

Advanced Reefer
Location
Tobyhanna, PA
Rating - 98.4%
246   4   0
I wonder, am I the only that thinks Johnny started this thread just to get $75 back?

Georgelc86 - I'll explain what being a member before Dec 2007 will do for you since it seems you haven't looked back at the history of my posts or Wolverine's the guy your standing up for. If you looked back at Johnny's post you would see that this isn't the first time he's done this, you would also see someone who bought (or got for free) frags from hobbyists to turn around and resell those exact same frags on here for more money, you would see someone who has a sump being made (or already made) by one vendor and then asks for a quote from someone else. And his explanation via pm the day his upgrade thread went up when called on his actions....



And since I didn't reply via pm, I'll say it now, no I don't go looking for the cheapest and quickest thing in this hobby even though I have other bills to pay.

Did Johnny every answer any questions posted about his upgrade? How did he acclimate the fish? How did he transport them on Sunday when it was freezing out? Where were the fish when he dismantled the entire tank to drill the holes? On a 24G tank was there a heater to keep it warm for extended periods of time? Were there any contaminates in the sump? How long did he soak the sump before and how long since the sump was built was was it put online?

Could the fish have died from Brook? Sure, but if thats the case whats the reason they got it in the first place.

There are so many potential points of hobbyists failure in his story and yet he's said nothing about any of it. But everything is okay now because Jim is going to take care of him. Personally, I don't see how these guys deal with it. Then again maybe they don't have their own bills and Johnny is the only one with a mortgage.
Paul, ...Because most of what you mention here does not have nothing to do with this thread!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

marrone

The All Powerful OZ
Staff member
Vendor
Location
The Big City
Rating - 98.8%
80   1   0
Lets try and keep the thread on topic, personal attack and physical threats will not be tolerated.

The facts are Clown fish do come down with Brooklynellosis and it's very deadly and can kill fish very quickly, in some case over night. Remember these where small clown to begin with so it wouldn't take much for them to die.

I've also seen quite a few ORA in LFS and a lot of them look like they're on the border line of have something, most likely Brooklynellosis. It doesn't take much to stress them out and bring the diseases on, especially in the colder weather that we've been having lately.


The bottom line is you need to QT all your fish. You should also know what to exspect with certain fish, like Clowns possibly coming down with Brooklynellosis, and be prepared to be able to treat them.
 
J

johnv

Guest
Rating - 98.8%
80   1   0
Ive checked the entire forum and unless I missed something, I did not find who the seller is, what happened with the tanks and did any fish survived?
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top